Simple (but likely controversial) Bayonetta Verse Downgrade

[TyphonEX]

The highest tiers of the Bayonetta verse are currently rated as being Low 1-C via scaling to the Ginnungagap, which encompasses the verse's 2-A World of Chaos in the same way that the universe surrounds Earth. Thus, it would be (countably) infinitely bigger than the World of Chaos and therefore be Low 1-C, right?

Wrong. After discussion in this thread, it was decided that something must be larger than a 2-A structure (or any 4D structure, I suppose) by an uncountably infinite extent to qualify as Low 1-C via size difference. The size difference between the earth and the universe is only countably infinite, so Ginnungagap wouldn't qualify as Low 1-C at all. That is of course unless you assume "universe" in this quote to mean "the entire 4D spacetime continuum of the universe" which is ungrounded wank, so fuhgeddaboudit.

Tbh it doesn't even look like Singularity erased a significant portion of the Ginnungagap anyways, only a tiny portion not even big enough to fill up a whole videogame map

Edit: there was also stuff about the universes being like sand compared to Ginnungagap but not only do I not see that, but there's also the fact that that comparison doesn't imply an uncountably infinite difference either.

Evaluations:​

Agree:
Disagree:

 

[Infinitinet]

Leaning more to disagree.

 

[Comicgyal]

Thus, it would be (countably) infinitely bigger than the World of Chaos and therefore be Low 1-C, right?

No. Ginnun encompasses the entirety of their 2-A structure, which is a infinite multiverse. It is given a direct size comparison of the Universe to the Earth, which is not a countable infinite. Unless you think there isn’t an infinite difference between the size of the Earth, to the 4D universe.

That is of course unless you assume "universe" in this quote to mean "the entire 4D spacetime continuum of the universe" which is ungrounded wank, so fuhgeddaboudit.

Yes, that is exactly what the quote is referring to. Not sure what else you could assume there.

Tbh it doesn't even look like Singularity erased a significant portion of the Ginnungagap anyways, only a tiny portion not even big enough to fill up a whole videogame map

Really bad argument, because we know that the entirety of Ginnun was erased as a result of Singularity’s attacks.

Edit: there was also stuff about the universes being like sand compared to Ginnungagap but not only do I not see that, but there's also the fact that that comparison doesn't imply an uncountably infinite difference either.

Coupled with the Earth to Universe statement, the grains of sand just serve to show just how little the 2-A multiverse is to the entirety of Ginnungagap .

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

IIRC, there are statements about their existing multiple temporal dimensions too, which even having 2 temporal dimensions defaults to Low 1-C size. And yeah, a Low 2-C sized timeline is uncountable in size compared to a finite 3D sized earth. Think Comicgyal also explained the rest too.

 

[deonment]

Just coming in to say that seeing something typically infinite as finite does in fact qualify by our trivialization standards (see Dark Tower along with Dragon Talisman and Sage Monarch before they get/got upgraded to 1-A)

 

[Strife304]

Disagree FRA by comic and DDM.

 

[Senzulean]

Disagree FRA as well. Furthermore, I'd like to quote this section from the "Universe" page of the wiki.

Regarding the Separation of Universes​

It should be recognized that travel between universes is not feasible unless through the use of a portal or similar unusual mechanisms. This is because it should be impossible for two distinct universes to be connected by a path that only goes through regular 3 dimensional space. Universes must be separated by something other than 3 dimensional distance or physical barriers, otherwise they would be considered to both be part of one large universe for our tiering purposes.

The most typical example is the presence of a higher dimensional space serving as a separator. In other words, two separate universes coexist in a four dimensional or even higher dimensional space, occupying different position along some additional dimensional axis. Therefore, in order to travel between such universes, the movement must be through the higher dimensional space between them. To summarize, two realms are separated through a higher dimension space if

1. A larger space encompasses all the universes or space-times
2. This space is of a higher dimensional nature.

Following these standards, the way Ginnungagap functions is an excellent example of a higher-dimensional space that serves as a separator of universes. It is the space/barrier between the Multiverse's space-times, encompassing all of them like the Universe encompasses the Earth, and traversal to other parallel worlds must be done specifically via passing through it.

 

[TyphonEX]

Yes, that is exactly what the quote is referring to. Not sure what else you could assume there.

I thought the default interpretation would be the "universe" as in the matter and energy within the spacetime of the universe. Like how "universe level" refers to power on par with destroying all of the stars within the observable universe rather than the spacetime itself (which would be universe+). Our standards do seem to treat "universe" as including spacetime but we can't impose our own definitions on people completely unaffiliated with us. But if imposing our definitions is part of our standards then whatever, I guess I was mistaken.

Really bad argument, because we know that the entirety of Ginnun was erased as a result of Singularity’s attacks.

How do we know that? I probably missed it tbh.

Just coming in to say that seeing something typically infinite as finite does in fact qualify by our trivialization standards (see Dark Tower along with Dragon Talisman and Sage Monarch before they get/got upgraded to 1-A)

That must have been before this thread. It doesn't seem to be part of our new standards. There's nothing about seeing something typically infinite as finite that indicates being uncountably infinitely bigger.

 

[Comicgyal]

I thought the default interpretation would be the "universe" as in the matter and energy within the spacetime of the universe. Like how "universe level" refers to power on par with destroying all of the stars within the observable universe rather than the spacetime itself (which would be universe+). Our standards do seem to treat "universe" as including spacetime but we can't impose our own definitions on people completely unaffiliated with us. But if imposing our definitions is part of our standards then whatever, I guess I was mistaken.

In more vague cases sure? But here they’re explicitly referring to their Multiverse, and all the many branching timelines and dimensions inside of it.

How do we know that? I probably missed it tbh.

Bayonetta is unable to use Ginnun to travel by the end of the game—showcased by Lukas “sacrifice” while their in singularity’s universe. Also there are no Ginnun portals in the final stage of the game either, so we know by now singularity has carried out his plan successfully.

 

[Planck69]

Disagree due to Comicgyal's reasons.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Closing FRA above and other reasons.