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Happy late BirthdayIt was my birthday and I'm on the mid of a break, I'll be back tomorrow
Good luck on the other projects, Elixir and Greatlskandar
Since Bomb reacted to it before Garou started sliding on the ground (sliding after killing Ugly, which Ugly noticeably reacted later than Bomb after Garou took out all 3 monsters), you can say Bomb's reaction is relative to that speed.Bomb was surprised by Garou's feat despite having seen him in action against Awakening Breath Bang, although that could be due to the fact that Garou has helped Bang right after having fought seemingly to the death.
Garou was using the Water Stream Rocking Smashing fist to redirected Darkshine’s fist, not evading him.
Based on what? Darkshine doesn't mention any such speed increase and thought at first Garou increasing his speed later during Garou's barrage on Darkshine, was his imagination.Garou grows unquantifiably faster when he's awake
That was narratively for King's "Super Move" to seem instant and powerful.Not to mention the timer, despite being an anti feat, is narratively put there to show us an impressive speed number that wasn't brought up in Garou's eralier stages.
No timer has been brought up in the series before, so there is no narrative consistency for the timer to mean an increase of speed from a moment ago.to show us an impressive speed number that wasn't brought up in Garou's eralier stages
Yeah, as I said, that was also a possibility. No need to elaborate on this point since it has 0 importance.What should surprise Bomb in that moment, was the Monster they were hunting, Garou, saving Bang from Acid Ugly, since Bomb was under the impression Garou had no mercy in his heart for humans and was gone.
He still needs to be relative or faster than Darkshine to redirect his attacks. If he were slower like before, it would be impossible. WSRSF doesn't grant an advantage over faster characaters, it is mostly a counter against individuals whose physical power are superior. Furthermore Garou's kick traveled a greater distance than Darkshine's punch in that scene, with the latter not being able to move away on time.Garou was using the Water Stream Rocking Smashing fist to redirected Darkshine’s fist, not evading him.
The fact that he mentions the coordination of his muscles have improved dramatically already implies a better performance by Garou. Not to mention that, by definition, if your muscles are more coordinated, you necessarily increase your speed, at least due to showing a higher degree of technique and economizing your movements.Based on what? Darkshine doesn't mention any such speed increase and thought at first Garou increasing his speed later during Garou's barrage on Darkshine, was his imagination.
No? If we were not aware that King's actually a fraud, this would be correct, but to us readers (not to characters in verse, who can't see a timer) the speed feat is performed by Garou, and that's the author's intention.That was narratively for King's "Super Move" to seem instant and powerful.
If Murata had wanted to make Awakening Breath Bang seem impressively fast he would have done so one way or another, but it's not the case.No timer has been brought up in the series before, so there is no narrative consistency for the timer to mean an increase of speed from a moment ago.
Thank you, Magmag!Happy late Birthday
Sure, but it seems you haven't responded to my point about Bomb reacting to Garou's attack on Ugly while Garou was moving.Yeah, as I said, that was also a possibility. No need to elaborate on this point since it has 0 importance.
Bomb was surprised by Garou's feat despite having seen him in action against Awakening Breath Bang, although that could be due to the fact that Garou has helped Bang right after having fought seemingly to the death.
Since Bomb reacted to it before Garou started sliding on the ground (sliding after killing Ugly, which Ugly noticeably reacted later than Bomb after Garou took out all 3 monsters), you can say Bomb's reaction is relative to that speed.
He still needs to be relative or faster than Darkshine to redirect his attacks. If he were slower like before, it would be impossible. WSRSF doesn't grant an advantage over faster characaters, it is mostly a counter against individuals whose physical power are superior. Furthermore Garou's kick traveled a greater distance than Darkshine's punch in that scene, with the latter not being able to move away on time.
Coordination: the organization of the different elements of a complex body or activity so as to enable them to work together effectively.The fact that he mentions the coordination of his muscles have improved dramatically already implies a better performance by Garou. Not to mention that, by definition, if your muscles are more coordinated, you necessarily increase your speed, at least due to showing a higher degree of technique and economizing your movements.
Also, if I were to concede and say that Darkhsine didn't mention any growth from Garou in speed (which I disagree with, as I explained some lines above), it would also make sense, because it is natural that a character gets faster when he goes from being asleep to being awake. Meanwhile, increasing your speed while fully conscious implies reactive evolution, something Darkshine would definitely be surprised about.
Any Statements from Murata that was his intentions? We shouldn't go around stating something was an author's intention without them spelling it out. Its our interpretation at the end of the day. "This thing means this and that is what the author wanted, take as fact." just by how we view the scene, is unreliable.No? If we were not aware that King's actually a fraud, this would be correct, but to us readers (not to characters in verse, who can't see a timer) the speed feat is performed by Garou, and that's the author's intention.
Is that the visuals argument of Visuals over Story? That is definitely an argument I don't support. The Story should always take more importance than the Visuals.If Murata had wanted to make Awakening Breath Bang seem impressively fast he would have done so one way or another, but it's not the case.
It doesn't bother me too much but it does get annoying with the amount of "I agree" in this thread as soon as someone responds against my points and the "I agree against Elixir's argument" comments ignoring the points of mine that have yet to be countered.I agree with ImposingTiger's points
Honestly, I'm a big fan of One Punch Man, even tho Sonic the Hedgehog takes priority for me so I leave the VSBW OPM supporters to handle the powerscaling without interfering. But I knew I had to defend Bang's honor, because I knew the Visual scope difference of Garou's battles would make others feel the need to downplay Bang.Is that the visuals argument of Visuals over Story? That is definitely an argument I don't support. The Story should always take more importance than the Visuals.
Sure, but it seems you haven't responded to my point about Bomb reacting to Garou's attack on Ugly while Garou was moving.
I'll address it then.So I'm taking it as you conceded on that.
Since Bomb reacted to it before Garou started sliding on the ground (sliding after killing Ugly, which Ugly noticeably reacted later than Bomb after Garou took out all 3 monsters), you can say Bomb's reaction is relative to that speed.
You remember, Darkshine was holding back at the beginning of the fight, not going all out. The WSRSF can redirect Daerkshine's speed if he wasn't putting his all into the punch Garou redirected.
Er, Garou's kick travelled a greater distance's than Darkshine's punch? Darkshine's punch travelled over him while Garou was closer.
Of course, Darkshine's coordination statement was response to Garou's stating his goal in defeating Darkshine was to prove his attack power could work on anyone, not so much about speed here, since Garou surprised Darkshine by knocking him down when Darkshine didn't think Garou could by his earlier statement "No matter how fast you are or how many tricks (Pre-Garou using the WRSF on Darkshine) you have up your sleeve, you are powerless in front of trained muscles"
Well, speaking of naturally, you wouldn't move when you are asleep or know how to fight without the conscious brain supporting you. I don't really follow whats considered what the common sense of "naturally" is in this case. If Garou was fighting on instincts while asleep, his speed should still scale to his instincts while awake, as instincts don't require the conscious brain to direct it.
Any Statements from Murata that was his intentions? We shouldn't go around stating something was an author's intention without them spelling it out. Its our interpretation at the end of the day. "This thing means this and that is what the author wanted, take as fact." just by how we view the scene, is unreliable.
Let's agree to disagree here, coming to the common ground that a scene like that one will always be object of interpretaion.Is that the visuals argument of Visuals over Story? That is definitely an argument I don't support. The Story should always take more importance than the Visuals.
Bang used the Awakening Breath at the beginning of the fight and used the WRSF on each of Garou's attacks before Garou used the Awakening Breath to match Bang, after Garou's match with Darkshine.
Don't really understand where you want to get. Please elaborate this a bit more clearly, if you will. If this point's purpose was its final sentence (the one on instincts) I already responded to that.Its a stated Increase for Garou, as well as Bang saying it draws the very limits of Garou's body without Garou needing to awake up.
Bang states Garou is drawing from the very limits of his body and Bomb states Garou is trading evenly with Bang. The Speed from reacting using Instincts don't differ between being asleep or awake since instincts aren't controlled by the conscious brain
Yes, I like Bang, but if we were to make AB Bang Relativistic everyone else would be. Like, Base Pre awakening Garou intercepted an attack from AB Bang. That Garou had just fought Bomb and they had been equal. Base Bomb is equal to Base Bang, who Rover likely scales to. The same happens with Post Most EC, Base Atomic Samurai, Golden Sperm, possibly Darkshine, etc... Hell, everyone would end at Rel. I think there is a clear jump in speed from Bang to Flashy Flash, specially with the whole light constellations being shown in the last chapters.Honestly, I'm a big fan of One Punch Man, even tho Sonic the Hedgehog takes priority for me so I leave the VSBW OPM supporters to handle the powerscaling without interfering. But I knew I had to defend Bang's honor, because I knew the Visual scope difference of Garou's battles would make others feel the need to downplay Bang.
exactly, thats why FF is FTL...I think there is a clear jump in speed from Bang to Flashy Flash, specially with the whole light constellations being shown in the last chapters.
You wish he was.exactly, thats why FF is FTL...
he is.You wish he was.
Then by Elixir's logic all the characters I listed should be FTL. Enough internet for today, I'm going to bed.he is.
they should indeed. gn.Then by Elixir's logic all the characters I listed should be FTL. Enough internet for today, I'm going to bed.
FTL has already been accepted for both Garou and PS. We will probably make a big crt at some point within the next few chapters.Flash is current listed as "Relativistic+, likely higher" while Garou and Platinum S lack that last part, I think we should add that, or are they getting a higher rating ?
Oh I see, everything's good thenFTL has already been accepted for both Garou and PS. We will probably make a big crt at some point within the next few chapters.
Bomb seeing Garou's attack doesn't mean he can react to it.
Reaction speed is defined as a single movement in a defined timeframe
Bang was moving, however. While he was too weak to move his body, he was able move his expression and jaw/eyebrows (Remember, Bomb wasn't expecting Garou to save Bang. The surprise was genuine).this thread is both combat speed and reaction speed, which are separate. So even if Bomb were to have a relative reaction speed to Garou (which there is 0 indication of)
Furthermore, the definition explicitly says that a character needs to be at a very close range in order for his reaction speed to get a solid qualification. Bomb has always been at a considerable distance from the fight.
How can you redirect speed?
Movements solely based on instincts fall again into a lack of coordination, which also leads to a worse performance. So, while the muscles could be exerting their maximum capacity, they would still not work together and/or effectively.
By the way, have you ever heard of "somnambulism"? People have proved to be able to drive, paint, piss or cook (among other examples) while in their sleep. Somnambulism isn't just based on instinct because it allows the subject to perform tasks that require interaction with the environment, creativity, usage of tools, basic reasoning, while also being unconscious. They move while asleep, while not conscious but also without relying too much on instinct.
Either one results in Garou being physically less gifted than when he wakes up.
Don't really understand where you want to get. Please elaborate this a bit more clearly, if you will. If this point's purpose was its final sentence (the one on instincts) I already responded to that.
Jaw is movement, not just perceiving by look. There are characters in fiction that can perceive through timestop but can move a muscles but Bomb here can move his muscles while Garou is moving.
Well, you might be right but the timeframe is too small for a MHS character to react. Ugly himself didn't react till after Garou took out all 3 monsters.While technically true, Bomb's jaw is moving only a few centimeters while Garou is moving potentially dozens of meters through the air in the same timeframe.
So there's no reason for Bomb to be anywhere close to comparable to Garou.
Damage explained this pretty good.Bang was moving, however. While he was too weak to move his body, he was able move his expression and jaw/eyebrows (Remember, Bomb wasn't expecting Garou to save Bang. The surprise was genuine).
Jaw is movement, not just perceiving by look. There are characters in fiction that can perceive through timestop but can move a muscles but Bomb here can move his muscles while Garou is moving.
It is probably referring to hand to hand combat. It wouldn't make sense to assume it is talking about dozens of meters distance. The explanations are based irl expirements.How close is close and how far is far, for a supposed MHS character to move his muscles while a Rel+/FTl character is in motion? Can you quantify it?
Redirect speed? Who, or rather I, ever said that? I said Darkshine's attack was redirect.
redirect Daerkshine's speed
It doesn't matter because, if Garou isn't able to match Darkshine's speed, he wouldn't be able to move in time.The genius Garou took out the B/A Class group doesn't not need to think that hard that where Darkshine was going to try throwing a punch. At him (Garou).
Well, that's the most important part. I don't think you should pass it, because the points I bring there are the base of my argumentation, and they haven't been debunked yet.I'm passing the rest on that for now, since the point seems to have started with "How can you you redirect speed"?
Neutral on this, given that we don't know how Garou's sleep works. The only thing I know is Garou got faster when he woke up against Darkshine. I know too that somnambulism doesn't allow people to perform better even if their muscle memory is free of thought.Instinctive Reaction is the ability to react to oncoming attacks without the need for conscious thought. As such, those with this ability will automatically dodge and possibly counter oncoming attacks through muscle memory or instinct. As a result, the user is free to utilize the mental effort that is normally spent on performing these movements on other things.
In the fictional story of One Punch Man with a fictional character like Garou, we do need to preforming Garou is limited by his sleep in the story or not, outside of what we perceive the scaling to be. Does Garou get slower when he sleep
Well, yeah, but my point has always been Garou's increases happen through combat and struggle. Garou isn't Sonic the Hedgehog in Sonic Forces who got passively faster while sitting around in a cell.I think it's reasonable to assume Awakened Bang isn't 100x slower than the Flashy Flash that Garou fought, but I don't think it discounts Garou from being a lot faster than when he fought Awakened Bang. This Garou specifically has been shown gaining huge amounts strength and speed way faster than any of his other forms did from specifically these kinds of situations.
Do we have other examples outside Bang of "after struggles" rather than "during"?He got his ass handed to him by Bang, and we see that increases can happen after struggles.
based off new FTL calcs, pretty sure a solid argument for Bang being rel+ is kinda opened up now...
Well, whatever is agreed upon.based off new FTL calcs, pretty sure a solid argument for Bang being rel+ is kinda opened up now...
I mean im for rel+, its pretty supported as a "checkpoint" speed. going from atleast MHS(well above that) to rel+ to FTL in garous caseWell, whatever is agreed upon.
is what from MB?Is that scaling from Metal Bat?