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It's fine. We're not in a rush anyway
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Silver Fang's speed redux
- Thread starter Lightning_XXI
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- flashy flash garou silver fang
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Little something, in terms of the Awakening Breath being a massive increase in stats, Bang's Base speed listed on his profile isn't given a limit/implied struggle justification, since all his justifications are either, others considering him to be very fast, him winning fights rather easily, or outrunning something off screen. I don't believe anyone upscaled from Bang's base speed either. The Awakening Breath might not be a massive stat increase, tho, its implied it is, since Bang was going to use it to try and defeat Elder Centipede when his base could only crack the outer shell.
But yeah, no rush. I need to focus on some Wiki and Sonic the Hedgehog stuff.
But yeah, no rush. I need to focus on some Wiki and Sonic the Hedgehog stuff.
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- Thread starter
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It was my birthday and I'm on the mid of a break, I'll be back tomorrow
Good luck on the other projects, Elixir and Greatlskandar
Good luck on the other projects, Elixir and Greatlskandar
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Happy late Birthday
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I was asked to give my input here. I didn't read the full page, but I agree with the downgrade. Bomb was surprised by Garou's feat despite having seen him in action against Awakening Breath Bang, although that could be due to the fact that Garou has helped Bang right after having fought seemingly to the death.
Garou is seen to be slower when he's asleep. He went from being unable to dodge Darkshine's attacks, to evade and counter him, with the latter indicating Garou's muscle coordination had improved dramatically. The fact that Darkshine can still react to Garou's attacks even after he was evolving is because Darkshine wasn't going all out from the start, as he himself states twice.
This being said, Garou grows unquantifiably faster when he's awake, going from being caught by a character who is faster than him to overwhelming said character right after that.
Not to mention the timer, despite being an anti feat, is narratively put there to show us an impressive speed number that wasn't brought up in Garou's eralier stages.
Garou is seen to be slower when he's asleep. He went from being unable to dodge Darkshine's attacks, to evade and counter him, with the latter indicating Garou's muscle coordination had improved dramatically. The fact that Darkshine can still react to Garou's attacks even after he was evolving is because Darkshine wasn't going all out from the start, as he himself states twice.
This being said, Garou grows unquantifiably faster when he's awake, going from being caught by a character who is faster than him to overwhelming said character right after that.
Not to mention the timer, despite being an anti feat, is narratively put there to show us an impressive speed number that wasn't brought up in Garou's eralier stages.
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Since Bomb reacted to it before Garou started sliding on the ground (sliding after killing Ugly, which Ugly noticeably reacted later than Bomb after Garou took out all 3 monsters), you can say Bomb's reaction is relative to that speed.
What should surprise Bomb in that moment, was the Monster they were hunting, Garou, saving Bang from Acid Ugly, since Bomb was under the impression Garou had no mercy in his heart for humans and was gone.
Garou was using the Water Stream Rocking Smashing fist to redirected Darkshine’s fist, not evading him.
Based on what? Darkshine doesn't mention any such speed increase and thought at first Garou increasing his speed later during Garou's barrage on Darkshine, was his imagination.
That was narratively for King's "Super Move" to seem instant and powerful.
No timer has been brought up in the series before, so there is no narrative consistency for the timer to mean an increase of speed from a moment ago.
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Yeah, as I said, that was also a possibility. No need to elaborate on this point since it has 0 importance.
He still needs to be relative or faster than Darkshine to redirect his attacks. If he were slower like before, it would be impossible. WSRSF doesn't grant an advantage over faster characaters, it is mostly a counter against individuals whose physical power are superior. Furthermore Garou's kick traveled a greater distance than Darkshine's punch in that scene, with the latter not being able to move away on time.
The fact that he mentions the coordination of his muscles have improved dramatically already implies a better performance by Garou. Not to mention that, by definition, if your muscles are more coordinated, you necessarily increase your speed, at least due to showing a higher degree of technique and economizing your movements.
Also, if I were to concede and say that Darkhsine didn't mention any growth from Garou in speed (which I disagree with, as I explained some lines above), it would also make sense, because it is natural that a character gets faster when he goes from being asleep to being awake. Meanwhile, increasing your speed while fully conscious implies reactive evolution, something Darkshine would definitely be surprised about.
No? If we were not aware that King's actually a fraud, this would be correct, but to us readers (not to characters in verse, who can't see a timer) the speed feat is performed by Garou, and that's the author's intention.
If Murata had wanted to make Awakening Breath Bang seem impressively fast he would have done so one way or another, but it's not the case.
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Sure, but it seems you haven't responded to my point about Bomb reacting to Garou's attack on Ugly while Garou was moving.
So I'm taking it as you conceded on that.
You remember, Darkshine was holding back at the beginning of the fight, not going all out. The WSRSF can redirect Daerkshine's speed if he wasn't putting his all into the punch Garou redirected.
Er, Garou's kick travelled a greater distance's than Darkshine's punch? Darkshine's punch travelled over him while Garou was closer.
Coordination: the organization of the different elements of a complex body or activity so as to enable them to work together effectively.
I see where you are coming from. Of course, Darkshine's coordination statement was response to Garou's stating his goal in defeating Darkshine was to prove his attack power could work on anyone, not so much about speed here, since Garou surprised Darkshine by knocking him down when Darkshine didn't think Garou could by his earlier statement "No matter how fast you are or how many tricks (Pre-Garou using the WRSF on Darkshine) you have up your sleeve, you are powerless in front of trained muscles"
Darkshine's comment on Coordination was in response to "Attack Power", not "Speed".
Well, speaking of naturally, you wouldn't move when you are asleep or know how to fight without the conscious brain supporting you. I don't really follow whats considered what the common sense of "naturally" is in this case. If Garou was fighting on instincts while asleep, his speed should still scale to his instincts while awake, as instincts don't require the conscious brain to direct it.
Any Statements from Murata that was his intentions? We shouldn't go around stating something was an author's intention without them spelling it out. Its our interpretation at the end of the day. "This thing means this and that is what the author wanted, take as fact." just by how we view the scene, is unreliable.
Is that the visuals argument of Visuals over Story? That is definitely an argument I don't support. The Story should always take more importance than the Visuals.
Also, what more is needed? Bang used the Awakening Breath at the beginning of the fight and used the WRSF on each of Garou's attacks before Garou used the Awakening Breath to match Bang, after Garou's match with Darkshine.
Its a stated Increase for Garou, as well as Bang saying it draws the very limits of Garou's body without Garou needing to awake up.
Bang states Garou is drawing from the very limits of his body and Bomb states Garou is trading evenly with Bang. The Speed from reacting using Instincts don't differ between being asleep or awake since instincts aren't controlled by the conscious brain. Other verse example, when anyone tries to nab Spiderman while he's asleep. Garou's passive stat amp only works by getting stronger through combat.
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It doesn't bother me too much but it does get annoying with the amount of "I agree" in this thread as soon as someone responds against my points and the "I agree against Elixir's argument" comments ignoring the points of mine that have yet to be countered.
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Honestly, I'm a big fan of One Punch Man, even tho Sonic the Hedgehog takes priority for me so I leave the VSBW OPM supporters to handle the powerscaling without interfering. But I knew I had to defend Bang's honor, because I knew the Visual scope difference of Garou's battles would make others feel the need to downplay Bang.
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I'll address it then.
I quote from "Reactions" page: "Reaction speed is defined as a single movement in a defined timeframe, which a character has been shown capable of."
Another definition from the "Speed" page: "Reaction speed is the speed at which a character can react to an event or action. This usually only grants a short movement upon reaction, whereas several movements at the same speed switch it to combat speed."
It states a few lines below: "Reaction speed is reacting to an attack that you don't know is going to happen, or at a very close range. The reaction speed of a character also tends to be higher than its movement speed."
Bomb seeing Garou's attack doesn't mean he can react to it. That is just how fast he can perceive objects moving, which doesn't mean he would be able to fight/be relative/keep up the pace at such speeds. What is being argued in this thread is both combat speed and reaction speed, which are separate. So even if Bomb were to have a relative reaction speed to Garou (which there is 0 indication of), nothing could prove his combat speed would be comparable as well. Furthermore, the definition explicitly says that a character needs to be at a very close range in order for his reaction speed to get a solid qualification. Bomb has always been at a considerable distance from the fight.
All of that is yet to be proved for Bomb. In conclusion, perceiving an attack from a distance doesn't equate, in any way, shape or form, to having reactions on that level, let alone to combat speed.
I don't quite understand this point, so I'll respond assuming I do. How can you redirect speed? You can redirect the KE of a character who has acquired his power thanks to that speed. Yes, Darkshine is holding back here both in power and speed, that's why Garou had a chance at countering. That is not the issue. What happens is, Garou gets caught by Darkshine twice, then wakes up and is confident that he can win now that he's not asleep anymore, something that would be impossible had his speed remained the same as before. Then Darkshine gets apparently more serious, which would imply an even higher speed than the one that had overwhelmed Garou before, but he gets countered and topped in speed.
If you are saying that Darkhsine was the one to run towards Garou, so the latter had more time to react: who are you to assume that happened, and that Garou never moved an inch? We don't see in which exact place they are positioned after the kick, so it's impossible to know.
If what you are trying to argue is Darkhsine's punch traveling a greater distance than Garou's kick: I don't know for certain, neither do you, because we would need to pixel scale the distances. What appears to me is that Garou hits but doesn't get hit, so he should naturally be faster than a Darkshine who is holding back.
Not necessarily. That could be a part of it. Going by your logic though, the statement you brought would be useless because Garou is still not hitting hard enough to bypass Darkshine's durability, meaning he hasn't accomplished his goal regarding attack power. Sure, his coordination has allowed him to hit harder, but why would that discard coordination referring to every stat, including speed as a part that also got better? It isn't contradictory.
Movements solely based on instincts fall again into a lack of coordination, which also leads to a worse performance. So, while the muscles could be exerting their maximum capacity, they would still not work together and/or effectively.
By the way, have you ever heard of "somnambulism"? People have proved to be able to drive, paint, piss or cook (among other examples) while in their sleep. Somnambulism isn't just based on instinct because it allows the subject to perform tasks that require interaction with the environment, creativity, usage of tools, basic reasoning, while also being unconscious. They move while asleep, while not conscious but also without relying too much on instinct.
Either one results in Garou being physically less gifted than when he wakes up.
Let's agree to disagree here, coming to the common ground that a scene like that one will always be object of interpretaion.
Don't really understand where you want to get. Please elaborate this a bit more clearly, if you will. If this point's purpose was its final sentence (the one on instincts) I already responded to that.
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Yes, I like Bang, but if we were to make AB Bang Relativistic everyone else would be. Like, Base Pre awakening Garou intercepted an attack from AB Bang. That Garou had just fought Bomb and they had been equal. Base Bomb is equal to Base Bang, who Rover likely scales to. The same happens with Post Most EC, Base Atomic Samurai, Golden Sperm, possibly Darkshine, etc... Hell, everyone would end at Rel. I think there is a clear jump in speed from Bang to Flashy Flash, specially with the whole light constellations being shown in the last chapters.
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exactly, thats why FF is FTL...
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You wish he was.exactly, thats why FF is FTL...
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he is.
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Then by Elixir's logic all the characters I listed should be FTL. Enough internet for today, I'm going to bed.
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they should indeed. gn.
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- Thread starter
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Also guys, there is a small problem with our speed scaling
Flash is current listed as "Relativistic+, likely higher" while Garou and Platinum S lack that last part, I think we should add that, or are they getting a higher rating ?
Flash is current listed as "Relativistic+, likely higher" while Garou and Platinum S lack that last part, I think we should add that, or are they getting a higher rating ?
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FTL has already been accepted for both Garou and PS. We will probably make a big crt at some point within the next few chapters.
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Oh I see, everything's good then
This seems to be mostly agreed by everyone except Elixir as far as I can tell, just gonna call staff to take one last look
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I'm pretty sure we're still waiting for Uskla's and Zamasu's versions atm
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Alright, breaking this by piece.
Jaw is movement, not just perceiving by look. There are characters in fiction that can perceive through timestop but can move a muscles but Bomb here can move his muscles while Garou is moving.
How close is close and how far is far, for a supposed MHS character to move his muscles while a Rel+/FTl character is in motion? Can you quantify it?
Redirect speed? Who, or rather I, ever said that? I said Darkshine's attack was redirect. The genius Garou took out the B/A Class group doesn't not need to think that hard that where Darkshine was going to try throwing a punch. At him (Garou).
I'm passing the rest on that for now, since the point seems to have started with "How can you you redirect speed"?
What we have on the Wiki pertaining to fiction Instinctive Reaction in a fight (Since we are both using the Wiki pages):
Instinctive Reaction is the ability to react to oncoming attacks without the need for conscious thought. As such, those with this ability will automatically dodge and possibly counter oncoming attacks through muscle memory or instinct. As a result, the user is free to utilize the mental effort that is normally spent on performing these movements on other things.
In the fictional story of One Punch Man with a fictional character like Garou, we do need to preforming Garou is limited by his sleep in the story or not, outside of what we perceive the scaling to be. Does Garou get slower when he sleeps. Dunno, the story never makes a point of it, unlike the story of Bang's fight with Garou, being that even in his sleep, he was bringing out the maximum limit of his body during the fight, as told by the story.
No comment about the Story going out of its way to say Garou was bringing the maximum limit of his body during the fight with Bang using the Awakening Breath?
Bang was moving, however. While he was too weak to move his body, he was able move his expression and jaw/eyebrows (Remember, Bomb wasn't expecting Garou to save Bang. The surprise was genuine).
Jaw is movement, not just perceiving by look. There are characters in fiction that can perceive through timestop but can move a muscles but Bomb here can move his muscles while Garou is moving.
How close is close and how far is far, for a supposed MHS character to move his muscles while a Rel+/FTl character is in motion? Can you quantify it?
Redirect speed? Who, or rather I, ever said that? I said Darkshine's attack was redirect. The genius Garou took out the B/A Class group doesn't not need to think that hard that where Darkshine was going to try throwing a punch. At him (Garou).
I'm passing the rest on that for now, since the point seems to have started with "How can you you redirect speed"?
What we have on the Wiki pertaining to fiction Instinctive Reaction in a fight (Since we are both using the Wiki pages):
Instinctive Reaction is the ability to react to oncoming attacks without the need for conscious thought. As such, those with this ability will automatically dodge and possibly counter oncoming attacks through muscle memory or instinct. As a result, the user is free to utilize the mental effort that is normally spent on performing these movements on other things.
In the fictional story of One Punch Man with a fictional character like Garou, we do need to preforming Garou is limited by his sleep in the story or not, outside of what we perceive the scaling to be. Does Garou get slower when he sleeps. Dunno, the story never makes a point of it, unlike the story of Bang's fight with Garou, being that even in his sleep, he was bringing out the maximum limit of his body during the fight, as told by the story.
No comment about the Story going out of its way to say Garou was bringing the maximum limit of his body during the fight with Bang using the Awakening Breath?
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While technically true, Bomb's jaw is moving only a few centimeters while Garou is moving potentially dozens of meters through the air in the same timeframe.
So there's no reason for Bomb to be anywhere close to comparable to Garou.
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Well, you might be right but the timeframe is too small for a MHS character to react. Ugly himself didn't react till after Garou took out all 3 monsters.
But I wasn't aiming to also scale Bomb. Bomb's surprise face was brought up, supposedly, to be an anti-feat to Flashy scaling to Bang and imply Garou's speed had increased through Bomb's surprised expression. Its just Bomb's surprised face turned into a supporting argument for me, rather than a counter.
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Damage explained this pretty good.
It is probably referring to hand to hand combat. It wouldn't make sense to assume it is talking about dozens of meters distance. The explanations are based irl expirements.
It doesn't matter because, if Garou isn't able to match Darkshine's speed, he wouldn't be able to move in time.
Well, that's the most important part. I don't think you should pass it, because the points I bring there are the base of my argumentation, and they haven't been debunked yet.
Neutral on this, given that we don't know how Garou's sleep works. The only thing I know is Garou got faster when he woke up against Darkshine. I know too that somnambulism doesn't allow people to perform better even if their muscle memory is free of thought.
I assume what you mean is: because Garou in his sleep (using AB) is using 100% of his muscle capacity, when he wakes up it's impossible for him to use more than that 100%. That is contradicted by your own argument that Garou shocked Darkshine in AP when he knocked him down after waking up. If you imply his muscles got stronger after waking up (and that's what Darkshine complimented), they could also make the body become faster. But by your logic, since asleep Garou = Woke Garou, that growth in AP you mentioned would not be viable.
At this point I think the debate has dragged on too much. What do other staff members think?
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I think it's reasonable to assume Awakened Bang isn't 100x slower than the Flashy Flash that Garou fought, but I don't think it discounts Garou from being a lot faster than when he fought Awakened Bang. This Garou specifically has been shown gaining huge amounts strength and speed way faster than any of his other forms did from specifically these kinds of situations.
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The AP rating would also need to be discussed for AB Bang.
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Well, yeah, but my point has always been Garou's increases happen through combat and struggle. Garou isn't Sonic the Hedgehog in Sonic Forces who got passively faster while sitting around in a cell.
Garou didn't really "fight" between the end of his fight with Bang vs dodging Flashy's kick or starting to fight Flashy.
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Do we have other examples outside Bang of "after struggles" rather than "during"?
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When he was carved up by RR and smooshed by rubble.
Also, he goes from awake to casually snapping chains that were holding him.
Also, he goes from awake to casually snapping chains that were holding him.
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Oookay, I gave a few days to see if it had anything else to debate, the vast majority agrees aswell as staff, I'm adding the changes now
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...
Incorrect representation of how Garou's ability to get stronger for Bang to be discounted, but I guess I lost the energy to keep arguing. Sorry for not returning sooner, been busy.
Incorrect representation of how Garou's ability to get stronger for Bang to be discounted, but I guess I lost the energy to keep arguing. Sorry for not returning sooner, been busy.
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based off new FTL calcs, pretty sure a solid argument for Bang being rel+ is kinda opened up now...
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Well, whatever is agreed upon.
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I mean im for rel+, its pretty supported as a "checkpoint" speed. going from atleast MHS(well above that) to rel+ to FTL in garous case
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Is that scaling from Metal Bat?
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is what from MB?
well for garous speed it should be atleast MHS(bomb), higher reactive evolution(bang here preferably rel+ scaling off of flashy), FTL(platinum sperm)
