Should Base Sonic get an Upgrade.

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I didn't say it was lower because of that, I said Emerl likely has lower durability than AP, whereas I think Sonic has lower AP than durability.

And yes, Super Sonic should get an upgrade when things settle down. Lets get some more opinions of MC level Sonic.

 

[Davy0]

(Yawns) Fine fine.

 

[Unclechairman]

Okay, first of all, Davy, I do not have to prove that the Emeralds used in Adventure were different from the ones in Adventure 2. Aside from being an absurd notion, the point is irrelevant. My argument was that your reasoning for Perfect Chaos being Planet level causes inconsistencies which can only be resolved by writing off base Sonic defeating him as an outlier or PIS. If you do that, the Planet level Perfect Chaos is a definite possiblity. However, it means we then must rescale the rest of the characters, which would mean having to dig up feats to give them a new tier. However, that's exactly what you're trying to do here. Just don't use Perfect Chaos, please. There's enough issues on that end already.

As for Iblis, there's two issues on that end. First, he comes from Sonic '06, which needs no explanation as to why that's an issue. Secondly, the justification for him being Multi-Continental is quite ridiculous. It assumes he devestated the world in one or a few shots, which is a far-fetched assumption. The timeframe between the present time in Sonic '06 (slightly before Iblis was released) and Silver's time (where the planet is a fiery wasteland) is 200 years. That's plenty of time for almost anyone with enough firepower to lay waste to civilzation. Hell, mankind itself could waste Earth in far shorter time by firing nukes at each other.

 

[Davy0]

Okay, first of all, Davy, I do not have to prove that the Emeralds used in Adventure were different from the ones in Adventure 2. Aside from being an absurd notion, the point is irrelevant. My argument was that your reasoning for Perfect Chaos being Planet level causes inconsistencies which can only be resolved by writing off base Sonic defeating him as an outlier or PIS. If you do that, the Planet level Perfect Chaos is a definite possiblity. However, it means we then must rescale the rest of the characters, which would mean having to dig up feats to give them a new tier. However, that's exactly what you're trying to do here. Just don't use Perfect Chaos, please. There's enough issues on that end already.
As for Iblis, there's two issues on that end. First, he comes from Sonic '06, which needs no explanation as to why that's an issue. Secondly, the justification for him being Multi-Continental is quite ridiculous. It assumes he devestated the world in one or a few shots, which is a far-fetched assumption. The timeframe between the present time in Sonic '06 (slightly before Iblis was released) and Silver's time (where the planet is a fiery wasteland) is 200 years. That's plenty of time for almost anyone with enough firepower to lay waste to civilzation. Hell, mankind itself could waste Earth in far shorter time by firing nukes at each other.

Look I'm willing to do whatever work you're not willing to do. Me and Dark did most of the work for these feats. What I remember from you is the Jeweled Scepter. And I can tell you, I went through agonizing hours of content along with a social life to handle all of it for my end. If you don't want to redo everything. That's you, but I want Sonic to be brought up a few notches as it deserves and increase. So I'll make it happen whether you like it or not.

Next. I mean, he's one of the keys to creating Solaris and Solaris can destroy the Multiverse by discarding all timelines into non-existence. You act like it's that big a deal.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Secondly, the justification for him being Multi-Continental is quite ridiculous. It assumes he devestated the world in one or a few shots, which is a far-fetched assumption. The timeframe between the present time in Sonic '06 (slightly before Iblis was released) and Silver's time (where the planet is a fiery wasteland) is 200 years. That's plenty of time for almost anyone with enough firepower to lay waste to civilzation. Hell, mankind itself could waste Earth in far shorter time by firing nukes at each other.

This may change some things. I was under the impression Iblis was implied to have decimated the planet almost instantly, and Silver was just one of the very few living beings that far in the future.

 

[Davy0]

It doesn't change anything, I already stated all that he just stated.

Ifrit, Emerl, Darky.

 

[Unclechairman]

I'd have no issues with upgrading Sonic and the rest of the cast if your reasoning wasn't so faulty. The fact that Planet level Perfect Chaos would necessitate rescaling of Sonic characters is just one of many issues; why are you focusing on it so much, rather than your own failure to address the inconsistencies it raises? And I will not allow you to ignore me as if I were a non-factor in this discussion simply because I have objections to your reasoning. Not to flaunt my position, but I am a moderator on this wiki who was here several months before you, and I can and will revert your edits if you cannot provide proper reasoning for such a massive increase. To be blunt, Davy, you are acting like a fanboy who is irritated that he isn't getting his way.

Iblis is a part of Solaris, yes. The essence of Solaris' body and raw power, yes. But he alone never demonstrated anything close to the level of power that Solaris demonstrated. What you're suggesting is that we should scale him to Solaris because he's a part of him along with Mephiles, which is shaky at best and absurd at worst. It might be grounds for scaling him to Mephiles (or vice versa), but not to the whole being. The fact remains that the best classification for Iblis is Life Wiper, which is an obsolete classification since the amount of power needed is unquantifiable. The best you can do is try to average how much of the world Iblis must destroy in order to have completely devestated it in a 200-year timeframe. Otherwise, other than scaling to Sonic, Shadow, and Silver, his power is completely unquantifiable.

 

[Davy0]

My reasoning is faulty? Even though I've explained with every thorough and honest answer towards the questions that have been given to me. Have been complimented by Azathoth for what I've done. And am called a Fanboy because you dislike that I'm using a character that after I've explained why P. Chaos' Negative Chaos Energy shouldn't be as weak as the Positive Chaos Energy which Sonic usually takes, you continuously state it as an outlier. Sonic has beaten Planet Busters before, and before you call me a name like "fanboy" maybe you need to come up with a few better reasons other than "I need to be lazy for the sake of being lazy". I've did all this work, I'm not spouting gibberish, I'm not attacking your ability to be logical. I'm just starting not to care for what you gotta say on it either, because it's the same old thing, over and over.

That would make him continent busting, dear.

 

[Unclechairman]

The reason I keep stating it is because it's true, and because you keep bringing this up despite the massive issues it raises. And I am not outright calling it an outlier; I'm simply stating that either writing it off as one or PIS is the only way to scale Perfect Chaos to Super Sonic or the Emeralds usual Planet level capabilities without causing massive inconsistencies. Nor did I ever state that the negative energy that powers Perfect Chaos is weaker than the positive energy that powers Super Sonic, and I just said that the fact that we would have to recale the base forms if we were to scale Perfect Chaos to Super Sonic is one of many issues with this. The fact that I keep saying this is no reason to write it off.

If Iblis were continental, he would have devastated the planet in days at most, certainly not 200 years, the timeframe we're given

 

[Davy0]

I don't care about the issues. Let the flood gates open. Let the naysayers speak, and let the salty tears of their comrades trickle down into the ocean to make due with all the boo-hoos. Outlier this, PIS that, Sonic did it. He beat him, otherwise he wouldn't have City Busting in the first place. I've proven why the Chaos Emeralds should allow for him to be on par with Super Sonic. I've proven why everything is everything. I've spoken speculation, sound theories, and haven't backed down when asked any question. But WE DON'T! BECAUSE LARGE PLANET BUSTING FROM DARK GAIA IS NOW IN ARMS REACH! And that's not even all. That's only Imperfect Dark Gaia, Sonic beat him, SONIC SMACKED HIS HANDS! SONIC PIERCED STRAIGHT THROUGH HIS HEAD AND DESTROYED HIM IN HIS SUPER FORM WITH CHIP! They already got calced and even if they didn't there's a reason we use the "at least" notion to denote power. So once more I say, I don't care what you're saying, kick back, chillax and I'll do the work. But you're not stopping the Gameverse from getting its due, Uncle.

But that's what Life-wiping is, and Iblis should be a superior threat to Sonic and the team. Otherwise he wouldn't have destroyed the WORLD WHERE SONIC LIVED in the first place as they obviously didn't stop him. So of course he and his comrade in arms as well as heterosexual life partner Mephilis will also get an increase. No harm no foul, buddy-boy.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Geez. Davy. Calm down bro. Just ride the tides.....

(THIS is why i don't debate Sonic btw, nothing but raw bloodshed.)

 

[Davy0]

Geez. Davy. Calm down bro. Just ride the tides.....
(THIS is why i don't debate Sonic btw, nothing but raw bloodshed.)

I'm just tired of this. People accept Mario being a Star Level seemingly instantly, yet as soon as Sonic is stated to be Planet Level after beating at least three possible planet busters everyone loses their minds.

 

[Unclechairman]

I don't debate Mario usually, and when I did, I was that guy who said Super Dimentio is Universe level+. Compare that to the level he's at now. People ignored me for the most part, though.

This is nothing to get emotional over, Davy. Take your finger off the Caps lock. This started with me and others simply advising against using Perfect Chaos in this thread because of the issues it brings, yet you insisted on it, and lo, behold, this thread is rapidly degenerating into madness. It's not like Perfect Chaos is even a signiificant factor as you still have Dark Gaia, Ultimate Emerl, and (possibly) the Ifrit as evidence.

 

[Davy0]

No you're the only one continuously doing so after I've given great theories based on the evidence within the games of why the Chaos Emeralds are possibly even stronger than we've seen them thus far. Azzy I think, understands that theory considering it plausible yet needing evidence that he can. He would still be a Multi-Continent Buster even with those as he would need to be stronger than them to be a threat otherwise Silver wouldn't consider Iblis that much of a threat if he was a rival to Sonic.

 

[Darkness552]

Geez. Davy. Calm down bro. Just ride the tides.....

(THIS is why i don't debate Sonic btw, nothing but raw bloodshed.)

You say that as if all sonic debates are like that, and as a matter of fact any fuctional debate can become bloodshed

 

[ImagoDesattrolante]

Alright...so what's the conclusion?

 

[Davy0]

Sonic gets a power-up, don't listen to the debate that "It means changing all relevant characters stats" because we already do that for other series as soon as we understand how powerful they are later down the road anyway". Uncle knows that I know, that he knows that Blaze is gonna get a piece of that pie too. so I think he'll get over it in a bit.

Either way, Continent or Planet Level. Whichever one you guys want. Azzy said Planet Level Durability, I can accept that too.

 

[ImagoDesattrolante]

Sonic gets a power-up, don't listen to the debate that "It means changing all relevant characters stats" because we already do that for other series as soon as we understand how powerful they are later down the road anyway". Uncle knows that I know, that he knows that Blaze is gonna get a piece of that pie too. so I think he'll get over it in a bit.
Either way, Continent or Planet Level. Whichever one you guys want. Azzy said Planet Level Durability, I can accept that too.

Can you stop with that tone, please? Calm down.

 

[Davy0]

I didn't have a tone. Trust me on this. You'll know when I have a tone. Go look at some of my recent works.

 

[ImagoDesattrolante]

I didn't have a tone. Trust me on this. You'll know when I have a tone. Go look at some of my recent works.

I don't know if that's supposed to be a good message.

Look, your attitude to Uncle has been pretty bad in this thread.

 

[Davy0]

That's because Uncle is constantly saying the same thing. A being that absorbs Planet Level energy isn't planet level. Changing the relevant characters and making them more powerful is wrong. Yada yada. And he has been doing this a lot, for no reason at all. Kinda irks me, that all the hardwork of looking up this stuff comes with the same response, especially when it has been called very plausible, yet he still has the same repeating phrase.

 

[ImagoDesattrolante]

That's because Uncle is constantly saying the same thing. A being that absorbs Planet Level energy isn't planet level. Changing the relevant characters and making them more powerful is wrong. Yada yada. And he has been doing this a lot, for no reason at all. Kinda irks me, that all the hardwork of looking up this stuff comes with the same response, especially when it has been called very plausible, yet he still has the same repeating phrase.

All I see him doing is debating, and he is bringing up pretty good points, if you ask me.

I won't continue this here.

If you want to continue with this Issue, come into Chat.

 

[Davy0]

In what way. I agreed with him on Iblis, it's the P. Chaos comments I don't agree on. And I gave the reasons why Negative Chaos Energy should be on par with Positive Chaos Energy, thus making him Planet Level, as it's a matter of equivalency. And since he doesn't believe that either, why should I continue to care about that since he hasn't shown any reasons why the Equivalency Ruling should be thrown away. With the same rules over and over, following the same thing over and over, and not giving new evidence or theories that supports his claims, all I hear is a naysayer without a reasonable cause.

So good for you if you're going to take up for him. But you don't know the work I did, or the stuff I needed to go through to get all this information. So you probably wouldn't understand.

I'm not continuing anything, I've said my peace, you're free to go if you wish.

 

[ImagoDesattrolante]

In what way. I agreed with him on Iblis, it's the P. Chaos comments I don't agree on. And I gave the reasons why Negative Chaos Energy should be on par with Positive Chaos Energy, thus making him Planet Level, as it's a matter of equivalency. And since he doesn't believe that either, why should I continue to care about that since he hasn't shown any reasons why the Equivalency Ruling should be thrown away. With the same rules over and over, following the same thing over and over, and not giving new evidence or theories that supports his claims, all I hear is a naysayer without a reasonable cause.
So good for you if you're going to take up for him. But you don't know the work I did, or the stuff I needed to go through to get all this information. So you probably wouldn't understand.

I'm not continuing anything, I've said my peace, you're free to go if you wish.

Alright, that's fine.

 

[HomestuckLover1]

I'm just tired of this. People accept Mario being a Star Level seemingly instantly, yet as soon as Sonic is stated to be Planet Level after beating at least three possible planet busters everyone loses their minds.

That's because Grand Star Bowser actually had a feat of consuming celestial matter and Mario could tank his attacks. Even then, only his durability was changed.

 

[Davy0]

Uhuh...

Sure.

But whatever. Oh and by the way, Death Battle, Homey-san.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Uh...huh.

 

[Davy0]

Skod, when you do realize that each and every fiction sitting in this universe right now, as downplayers and wankers correct. Even Spongebob Squareslacks.

 

[HomestuckLover1]

Uhuh...

Sure.

But whatever. Oh and by the way, Death Battle, Homey-san.

I look forward to conversing with you more on the forums. You should try visiting plenty of threads though.

Also, sorry that had to be your first experience there. But, having your first post call everyone's beliefs "fallacious" isn't exactly the best idea. They'll all skin you alive as soon as possible XD

 

[Davy0]

They're''' NOTHING '''like the OBD.

 

[HomestuckLover1]

They're NOTHING like the OBD.

I never said they were. Over there, we're a lot more willing to have fun.

 

[Davy0]

Ahhhh. Good for you, but here's the thing about that.

When Debating a characters feats, work comes before fun. You guys just seemed to brush everything off that other individuals who used logic and feats to dictate character strengths and weaknesses off as if they didn't mean anything. So yeah, have your fun, but don't call that place "serious" and expect me not to laugh a bit, ya know.

At any rate if you're not gonna talk about Base Sonic, please stop talking in here, Homey-san. Don't want to derail the conversation.

 

[Unclechairman]

Before this thread dies, let me just say one more thing.

I'm fine with the upgrade. Scaling Sonic and the rest of the characters to Dark Gaia and Ultimate Emerl would actually help solve the whole issue with Perfect Chaos, since the issue there is that a base form is getting scaled to a Super form, causing issues when we try to scale Perfect Chaos to the other Super forms. Without Perfect Chaos being scaled to a base form anymore, it gets rid of the scaling issues and opens up the possibility of a planet level Perfect Chaos without the issues I've repeatedly mentioned. Besides, that was the sole City level feat for Sonic, and here we have at least two Planet level feats without the issues that said City level feat brought. As long as we put the Super forms at Large Planet level (they should be when the Attack Potency chart is finished undergoing revision), I'm okay with this.

 

[ImagoDesattrolante]

Before this thread dies, let me just say one more thing.
I'm fine with the upgrade. Scaling Sonic and the rest of the characters to Dark Gaia and Ultimate Emerl would actually help solve the whole issue with Perfect Chaos, since the issue there is that a base form is getting scaled to a Super form, causing issues when we try to scale Perfect Chaos to the other Super forms. Without Perfect Chaos being scaled to a base form anymore, it gets rid of the scaling issues and opens up the possibility of a planet level Perfect Chaos without the issues I've repeatedly mentioned. Besides, that was the sole City level feat for Sonic, and here we have at least two Planet level feats without the issues that said City level feat brought. As long as we put the Super forms at Large Planet level (they should be when the Attack Potency chart is finished undergoing revision), I'm okay with this.

Sounds good.

 

[Darkness552]

@Unclechairman

Azzy did have a problem with Sonic being planet level himself but said he should have planet level durability

 

[Unclechairman]

The compromise was Multi-Continental AP becuase of the vague nature of Ultimate Emerl's power and the fact that Dark Gaia was being held down and struck in his weak points, right? I suppose that's fine. Though, may I ask, what was Ultimate Emerl's power source? I haven't played Sonic Battle.

 

[Darkness552]

the chaos emeralds

 

[Unclechairman]

Really? If that's the case, we end up with the same issues that Perfect Chaos caused.

 

[Darkness552]

seems to be the case

 

[Davy0]

No we don't because Gerald specifically states that even with one emerald, Emerl destroys most of the (at least half) of theSpace Colony Ark. The Ark is much larger than the average city even from just eyeballing it. And the piece that was broken from the SA2 could have been the half that was destroyed with Emerl's destruction. That, can be scaled to characters like Chaos who use the Emerl's to power themselves up in a similar way. You guys are just splitting hairs now.