Shinsu Senju AP upgrade

[MinatoSparkle]

I know the Tier 6 Naruto revision is coming, but since Shinsu Senju is in a scaling vacuum and doesn't really connect to any other characters (other than the MAS, which also doesn't connect to anyone else), I thought this would be fine.

Anyways, the Shinsu Senju was able to overpower the Susanoo Blade Bijuudamas fired at it and proceeded to punch away the PS armor.
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And just based on the limited view we had in the shot of them being fired, there were bare minimum 11 Bijuudamas combined with Susanoo Blades that were fired. A single Bijuudama from 100% Kurama is 643.7 gigatons, upscaling 10x from the other Bijuu https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:KingTempest16/Bijuu_make_booms#Value_of_Destruction. 643.7x11=7080.7 gigatons, or 7.08 teratons, which is Country level. And it's likely that there were actually far more, as the shot of the Shinsuu Senju had about 20 arms, which is obviously far from all of them. If the ratio was rlly something like 1:2, then the Shinsu Senju/Majestic Attire Susanoo's AP jumps up all the way to Large Country level, or even higher when considering the boost that the Susanoo Blades added to their AP. But that's quite an assumption, even if it makes sense.

So to be on the conservative side, I propose for SM Hashirama: "At least Large Mountain level+ (Far stronger than before due to Sage Mode), up to Small Country level with most Wood Release techniques (Far stronger than before due to Sage Mode. His Wood Golem was able to contend with Madara's Perfect Susano'o[6] when he was weaker as an Edo Tensei), at least Country level with Shin Sūsenju (far more powerful than the Wood Golem, and is capable of matching at least 11 Bijū Bombs from Kurama combined with Madara's Perfect Susano'o Blades, and still damaged the Perfect Susano'o's armor afterward[7])"

And for Madara: "Large Mountain level+ (Is capable of matching Hashirama Senju, who can harm and defeat him. He was far stronger than he was as an Edo Tensei), Large Island level+ to Country level with the Kyūbi (Has control of the Kyūbi), Small Country level with Perfect Susano'o (Comparable to Madara's Edo Tensei Susano'o), at least Country level with Majestic Attire: Susano'o (It can output at least 11 Bijū Bombs at once and can destroy the arms of Sage Mode Hashirama's Shin Sūsenju with its Evil Disturbance Waltz)"

And Juubito being stronger than Hashirama doesn't contradict this, as he's At least Country level too. Anyways, that was Edo Hashirama who made the statement, but I digress.

 

[Nierre]

Makes sense to me

 

[Damage3245]

You don't just multiply attacks like that for the number of attacks done in order to increase the AP.

 

[Thelastmlg]

He punched away 11 bijuudamas separated, not 11 combined to one, he would only scale to one of them since AP is for singular attacks

 

[MinatoSparkle]

You don't just multiply attacks like that for the number of attacks done in order to increase the AP.

Why not? That's the reason the Kurama Avatar scales to 5 Bijuudamas. Because he matched 5 of them. They did combine, but that makes no difference to the combined number of joules in the attack.

He punched away 11 bijuudamas separated, not 11 combined to one, he would only scale to one of them since AP is for singular attacks

Shinsuu Senju isn't a singular attack though. It's 1000 arms attacking together.

 

[Damage3245]

Why not? That's the reason the Kurama Avatar scales to 5 Bijuudamas. Because he matched 5 of them. They did combine, but that makes no difference to the combined number of joules in the attack.

Because they are separate attacks.

If you were punched 20 times over your body, your durability for where you're hit wouldn't scale to 20 x the force of one punch.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Because they are separate attacks.

If you were punched 20 times over your body, your durability for where you're hit wouldn't scale to 20 x the force of one punch.

I know, but that's because each different punch is a separate attack, but with the Shinsu Senju, it's 1000 attacks at once, and that's the point of it. The reason it busted through Madara's PS was because it was a ton of arms. If it just 1 or 2, the damage it did would've been minimal. It's the same as the logic for the world's nuclear weapon stockpile AP. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_World's_Nuclear_Weapon_Stockpile_/_Arsenal

 

[KingTempest]

If it does not combine into 1 big attack, it is not equal to their combined yield.

Separate attacks remain separate attacks. Simple.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yeah, no, we definitely don't combine the AP of separate attacks like this.

The reason Kurama scales to the value of 5 Bijū bombs is that they weren't actually 5, they were a single combined TBB made by 5 Bijū.
Kurama and Madara fired individual TBBs, and Hashirama matched them with individual arms. The respective APs cannot be stacked, as a rule.

 

[LordTracer]

As Slayer, Tempest and Damage have already said: we do not multiply the AP of separate attacks just because there’s multiple of them.

If it’s not multiple attacks that combine into one, or a single attack that splits into multiple, we cannot stack their AP. Period.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

If it does not combine into 1 big attack, it is not equal to their combined yield.

Separate attacks remain separate attacks. Simple.

So that means that if a single arm of the Shinsu Senju hit Kurama, it would injure him since it has Low 6-B AP compared to his High 6-C+ durability?

Yeah, no, we definitely don't combine the AP of separate attacks like this.

The reason Kurama scales to the value of 5 Bijū bombs is that they weren't actually 5, they were a single combined TBB made by 5 Bijū.
Kurama and Madara fired individual TBBs, and Hashirama matched them with individual arms. The respective APs cannot be stacked, as a rule.

Where is the rule? I wanna take a look at it to see the exact specification.

And again, why is this a thing then? https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_World's_Nuclear_Weapon_Stockpile_/_Arsenal

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I can see this isn't something I'm gonna convince anyone of, so I'll change my proposal. How about

"At least Large Mountain level+ (Far stronger than before due to Sage Mode), up to Small Country level with most Wood Release techniques (Far stronger than before due to Sage Mode. His Wood Golem was able to contend with Madara's Perfect Susano'o[6] when he was weaker as an Edo Tensei), far higher with Shin Sūsenju (far more powerful than the Wood Golem, and is capable of matching at least 11 Bijū Bombs from Kurama combined with Madara's Perfect Susano'o Blades, and still damaged the Perfect Susano'o's armor afterward[7])"

"Large Mountain level+ (Is capable of matching Hashirama Senju, who can harm and defeat him. He was far stronger than he was as an Edo Tensei), Large Island level+ to Country level with the Kyūbi (Has control of the Kyūbi), Small Country level with Perfect Susano'o (Comparable to Madara's Edo Tensei Susano'o), far higher with Majestic Attire: Susano'o (It can output at least 11 Bijū Bombs at once and can destroy the arms of Sage Mode Hashirama's Shin Sūsenju with its Evil Disturbance Waltz)"

 

[Damage3245]

Where is the rule? I wanna take a look at it to see the exact specification.

Multipliers page:

For combination attacks, similar standards to multipliers apply. It should not be assumed that a combination attack performed by multiple characters has Attack Potency equal to the sum of the participating characters Attack Potency unless there is specific evidence for it.

This could be elaborated on, but it applies for a single character spamming out attacks as well.

 

[Rocker1189]

I do think that the shin susenju should be higher as well as majestic attire as that is simple logic. "far higher" needs some more to it though.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Multipliers page:

This could be elaborated on, but it applies for a single character spamming out attacks as well.

I mean, it does say without specific evidence. And the databook could potentially be used as that evidence.

"Placing all the weight on the palms, the judgement of thousand blows that are released with such force that its own hands crumble!" It specifies that Shinsu Senju is a technique with its power rooted in the number of attacks.

I do think that the shin susenju should be higher as well as majestic attire as that is simple logic. "far higher" needs some more to it though.

wdym?

 

[KingTempest]

That evidence is extremely weak

 

[Nierre]

OH for some reason I completely missed the second half of the OP (i seriously need to wear my glasses)

Since we don't do that here, I disagree fra (sorry sparkle)

though i do think it should be higher at least

 

[MinatoSparkle]

That evidence is extremely weak

Is it really? And either way it is evidence, and that combined with the common sense explanation I gave is certainly more than nothing.

OH for some reason I completely missed the second half of the OP (i seriously need to wear my glasses)

Since we don't do that here, I disagree fra (sorry sparkle)

though i do think it should be higher at least

Do u mean the MAS part? Cause I added that after.

Well the MAS already is, but SS is with the rest of Wood Release unfortunately.

 

[Thelastmlg]

That's not even evidence though, it doesn't saay that the blows are combined into one, it says that he launches 1000 blows with a lot of power behind it.

The way the shinsu attacks is straight up shown to be many punchs being thrown consecutive with barely any between time until all have landed, it doesn't become a giant punch or anything

 

[MinatoSparkle]

That's not even evidence though, it doesn't saay that the blows are combined into one, it says that he launches 1000 blows with a lot of power behind it.

The way the shinsu attacks is straight up shown to be many punchs being thrown consecutive with barely any between time until all have landed, it doesn't become a giant punch or anything

I'm not saying all the blows are combined into one. But your explanation is my point. The power builds up quickly until a big explosion at the end, without losing its force on the intended target. So the target gets hit with the AP of 1000 arms even though it's only being hit by individual arms that are attacking quickly. The individual arms are so weak that a single Bijuudama can destroy them. But the SS is not High 6-C+. So what's the reason for that?

 

[KingTempest]

AP of 1000 arms ≠ AP of 1 arm x 1000

 

[MinatoSparkle]

AP of 1000 arms ≠ AP of 1 arm x 1000

What is the reason for that?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

What is the reason for that?

Think getting punched in the face a thousand times VS getting punched once in the face with the force of a thousand punches. It's not the same.

Getting shot a thousand times is not the same as getting blasted by a canon that happens to carry the force equivalent to a thousand shots.

Your proposal is the same as saying that the individual punch or shot are equivalent to the combined-force punch or the canon respectively. That kind of stacking doesn't work because accumulative damage =/= immediate impact.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Think getting punched in the face a thousand times VS getting punched once in the face with the force of a thousand punches. It's not the same.

Getting shot a thousand times is not the same as getting blasted by a canon that happens to carry the force equivalent to a thousand shots.

Your proposal is the same as saying that the individual punch or shot are equivalent to the combined-force punch or the canon respectively. That kind of stacking doesn't work because accumulative damage =/= immediate impact.

But accumulative damage is far more than the individual attacks.

 

[KingTempest]

AP of 1000 arms ≠ AP of 1 arm x 1000

You're just repeating this atp.

The attacks don't get the 1000x value. Simple

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

But accumulative damage is far more than the individual attacks.

It may very well be, but that doesn't matter. The AP section is meant to index a character's highest shown Attack Potency value per every singular attack. Accumulative damage is not taken into account at all. We only use energy output/ every attack.

 

[DenLitz]

Agree with Uchihaslayer, KingTempest, Damage3245, And More

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Think of it this way.
A Country level character can potentially surface wipe the earth after a certain number of consecutive attacks, but rating said character at High 6-A wouldn't exactly be accurate to his actual AP output at all.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It may very well be, but that doesn't matter. The AP section is meant to index a character's highest shown Attack Potency value per every singular attack. Accumulative damage is not taken into account at all. We only energy output/ every attack.

Well that doesn't rlly make sense and is contradicted by many ratings but ah well. And when u say "at all," do you mean the fact that there were 11 Bijuudamas can't even be mentioned in the AP section?

Think of it this way.
A Country level character can potentially surface wipe the earth after a certain number of consecutive attacks, but rating said character at High 6-A wouldn't exactly be accurate to his actual AP output at all.

The difference is that Shinsu Senju is a specific technique that's categorized as one thing.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Well that doesn't rlly make sense and is contradicted by many ratings but ah well.

Two wrongs don't make a right, my friend. If there are such ratings currently on the wiki, then they should be changed.

And when u say "at all," do you mean the fact that there were 11 Bijuudamas can't even be mentioned in the AP section?

Yes, it's kinda irrelevant as it doesn't really raise his AP. It just means that Madara can spam multiple Low 6-B attacks. We don't multiply Piccolo's power because he spams dozens of Ki blasts when he uses his Hellzone Grenade. Likewise, we don't multiply all Danmaku users' AP when they create dozens, or even millions, of projectiles simultaneously.

The difference is that Shinsu Senju is a specific technique that's categorized as one thing.

That's....like completely irrelevant. It's "one thing" that has a thousand arms. We don't give humans double the AP for having two arms...

 

[DenLitz]

Energy that is calculated in the Attack Potency is Energy that is generated at the same time / not carried out in stages or in rotation, while Shinsoo Senju's attacks release Energy not simultaneously per attack, the attacks take turns.

You may want to know why Shinsoo Senju's next attack "looks" stronger / results in a stronger attack, it's because the energy caused by the first attack has reduced the Durability of Susanoo & Kurama, that's what makes the next attack "look" stronger, which is actually the Energy that the impact is not much different / maybe even the same as before, but the Durability of Susanoo & Kurama is not the same as before / It has been reduced since the first attack that Shinsu Senju threw

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with UchihaSlayer96, LordTracer and KingTempest fra.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Two wrongs don't make a right, my friend. If there are such ratings currently on the wiki, then they should be changed.

Disagree

Yes, it's kinda irrelevant as it doesn't really raise his AP. It just means that Madara can spam multiple Low 6-B attacks.

I was talking about the SS in this case not Madara. The fact that it could destroy multiple Bijuudamas and the PS.

We don't multiply Piccolo's power because he spams dozens of Ki blasts when he uses his Hellzone Grenade. Likewise, we don't multiply all Danmaku users' AP when they create dozens, or even millions, of projectiles simultaneously.

But Hellzone Grenade is stronger than his regular attacks.

That's....like completely irrelevant. It's "one thing" that has a thousand arms. We don't give humans double the AP for having two arms...

But when humans punch with both arms at the same time it's stronger than if they use one.

Energy that is calculated in the Attack Potency is Energy that is generated at the same time / not carried out in stages or in rotation, while Shinsoo Senju's attacks release Energy not simultaneously per attack, the attacks take turns.

But many of the punches DO land at the same time, effectively multiplying the damage done.

You may want to know why Shinsoo Senju's next attack "looks" stronger / results in a stronger attack, it's because the energy caused by the first attack has reduced the Durability of Susanoo & Kurama, that's what makes the next attack "look" stronger, which is actually the Energy that the impact is not much different / maybe even the same as before, but the Durability of Susanoo & Kurama is not the same as before / It has been reduced since the first attack that Shinsu Senju threw

But the overall damage all the arms do is the power of the Shinsu Senju as a construct, especially since it's a one time attack that destroys itself in the process. It's not the same as a person punching multiple times because the arms attacking together is classified as one ability, not multiple different attacks even though it technically is. If the SS' DC was equal to its AP, then if every punch destroyed an island, it would have destroyed a country with all of its attacks.

 

[KingTempest]

Attacks that land at the same time ≠ the sum of the force because of concepts like precision and such.

We do not accept this logic. I'm confused why this is still being questioned

 

[Magmag]

this should just be closed right?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Attacks that land at the same time ≠ the sum of the force because of concepts like precision and such.

We do not accept this logic. I'm confused why this is still being questioned

And yet attacks that span a large radius are accepted as having that same amount of AP in every inch of it. Like how the Juubi scales to the Tenpenchi despite none of the individual things it did being 6-B, only when all the effects caused over time were combined was it 6-B.

this should just be closed right?

 

[Magmag]

And yet attacks that span a large radius are accepted as having that same amount of AP in every inch of it.

Yeah cuz it was done in one attack.
It doesn’t matter what radius the attack has…

 

[DenLitz]

Attacks that land at the same time ≠ the sum of the force because of concepts like precision and such.

We do not accept this logic. I'm confused why this is still being questioned

I mean Energy/Attack released at the same time

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Yeah cuz it was done in one attack.
It doesn’t matter what radius the attack has…

No it wasn't. The tenpenchi was a bunch of lightning storms and tornadoes and stuff that happened over a span of time.

It does, as Tempest put it, "because of concepts such as precision and such."

 

[KingTempest]

No it wasn't. The tenpenchi was a bunch of lightning storms and tornadoes and stuff that happened over a span of time.

It does, as Tempest put it, "because of concepts such as precision and such."

He shouldn't even scale to the Tenpachii

And shit, we'd downgrade that then