Shinra Tensei LS Effect Speed

[sageof8paths]

Hello there, this thread will be going over how and why the speed of which Shinra Tensei takes its effect upon activation is light speed.


Do not confuse this with the argument that Shinra Tensei repels or pulls things at lightspeed, merely that upon activation, its force takes effect at light speed.

In the data books it’s stated numerous times that Shinra Tensei is the manipulation of The Gravitation Force which Travel at the speed of light

Spoiler: Databook

The invisible hand of God, which repels anything in creation!!

Pain Tendou uses this jutsu, utilizing repulsive gravitational force generated in the user's hands to repel targets. The number of targets and their size do not interfere with the jutsu's repulsive capability. Additionally, by stopping the use of the other Pains and concentrating chakra solely for this jutsu, the force and the affected area can be greatly increased. With an attack of such power, Konohagakure no Sato was completely turned to ashes. However, after the jutsu is activated, there is a 5-second interval during which the jutsu cannot be used again. The repulsive force generated by the gravitational power forces the targets to collide with obstacles, increasing the initial damage of the jutsu's shockwave. Only those who can manipulate all chakra natures, those who possess the legendary Rinnegan, are allowed to possess this jutsu, which truly deserves to be called perfect, like a diamond.

←↓ The repulsive force is so strong that both ninjutsu and taijutsu are equally ineffective against this jutsu. With an unexpected discharge of this invisible force, it is very practical for catching opponents off guard.

Spoiler: Databook

A power that is absolutely inevitable! The divine palm that attracts everything in creation!!



This jutsu, which manipulates gravitational attraction, is used by Tendo, one of the members of Pain Rikudou. With the user themselves as the center, the jutsu pulls any matter that exists. Any matter that makes up the target is forcefully pulled towards the palm of the right hand. These are the final moments of the target, as there is no way to resist; everyone bows to this gravitational attraction.



↓ The gravitational attraction force can be useful, making it possible to distract or pull an enemy toward an attack.



There's no point in trying to downplay Jiraiya, his greatest versatility gives him a significant advantage against Naruto.

To conclude it’s very clear that pain is manipulating the force of gravity which takes its effect at the speed of light. Again, NOT saying he moves things at the speed of light but merely from the moment it’s activated to the moment it takes its effect is LIGHTSPEED

To argue against this is to argue that gravity in Naruto somehow operates slower to which there is no proof of such.

KN6 Naruto is the only character that reacts to it in the little timeframe from activation to effect.

In their entire manga fight Pain never reacts to this Naruto, only ever from a distance of 10 meters+ or higher barely raising his hand or he catches naruto off guard then proceeds to run away and do the chibaku tensei. He should likely Downscale to Relativistic from low relativity to KN6.

Kcm2 tiers and above will then scale to the KN6 naruto feat

Thanks for reading

 

[Samlex1234]

Following

 

[Deceived3596]

Following.

I might post something, but I can't say with any certainty that I will.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I think SoL Shinra tensei is valid and makes sense. It's portrayed as nearly instantaneous, even seemingly statuing characters like chidori amped Kakashi.

That being said I disagree with kn6 Naruto from scaling to it. The only thing we can prove in that feat is that Naruto stuck his tails into the ground faster than his body got blasted away by the ST, not faster than the ST hit him. And while the gravity itself is SoL, the speed at which it moves Narutos body away would be unquantifiably lower.

 

[Damage3245]

KN6 Naruto is the only character that reacts to it in the little timeframe from activation to effect.

In their entire manga fight Pain never reacts to this Naruto, only ever from a distance of 10 meters+ or higher barely raising his hand or he catches naruto off guard then proceeds to run away and do the chibaku tensei. He should likely Downscale to Relativistic from low relativity to KN6.

I disagree with this proposed scaling. You can't just downscale someone to Relativistic speeds for something like this. KN6 Naruto shows no signs of lightspeed or relativistic movement here, as DavidTPPM explained.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Shinra Tensei speed of light

A thread has already been made regarding the speed of Shinra Tensei being light speed. There were some issues that we need to check. 1) It was said that the speed would be slower in other medium including air. To clarify, gravitational waves, according to the current understanding in general...

vsbattles.com

I don’t think this thread addresses the concerns of the previous thread, particularly what Deceived brings up in the post I linked, that got this premise rejected.

 

[sageof8paths]

I think SoL Shinra tensei is valid and makes sense. It's portrayed as nearly instantaneous, even seemingly statuing characters like chidori amped Kakashi.

That being said I disagree with kn6 Naruto from scaling to it. The only thing we can prove in that feat is that Naruto stuck his tails into the ground faster than his body got blasted away by the ST, not faster than the ST hit him. And while the gravity itself is SoL, the speed at which it moves Narutos body away would be unquantifiably lower.

The whole argument is the fact that he’s able to put his tails in the ground before he gets blasted away. The effect of gravity is the blast. l

Kishimoto literally shows us a step by step panel, in which kn6 naruto stuck his tails in then the next panel shows the blast meaning he stuck his tails in before it took effect. It’s very simple and intentional.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Shinra Tensei speed of light

A thread has already been made regarding the speed of Shinra Tensei being light speed. There were some issues that we need to check. 1) It was said that the speed would be slower in other medium including air. To clarify, gravitational waves, according to the current understanding in general...

vsbattles.com

I don’t think this thread addresses the concerns of the previous thread, particularly what Deceived brings up in the post I linked, that got this premise rejected.

We don’t scale based on what we think the authors would have intended

We scale based on what would be true in the scaling of the given work, death of the author exists, most verses scale like this and we will not be holding Naruto to a different standard than others



Anyways neutral leaning agree for now

 

[DavidTPPM]

The whole argument is the fact that he’s able to put his tails in the ground before he gets blasted away. The effect of gravity is the blast. l

Kishimoto literally shows us a step by step panel, in which kn6 naruto stuck his tails in then the next panel shows the blast meaning he stuck his tails in before it took effect. It’s very simple and intentional.

That's an alright interpretation but that assumes kn6 Naruto knows a blast is coming before he even felt it and prepped before it reached him, something that's not consistent with Narutos mindless state here.

A more likely interpretation is that the set of events went like this:
Pain uses Shinra tensei Naruto gets hit and starts being pushed back in response he sticks his tails into the ground and stops the push back.

Furthermore there is actually a filler episode that animated the Pain fight MUCH closer to the manga than the original anime pain fight did and it has adapted this scene with 1:1 accuracy. And there we see this exact lower end interpretation be true.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

That's an alright interpretation but that assumes kn6 Naruto knows a blast is coming before he even felt it and prepped before it reached him, something that's not consistent with Narutos mindless state here.

A more likely interpretation is that the set of events went like this:
Pain uses Shinra tensei Naruto gets hit and starts being pushed back in response he sticks his tails into the ground and stops the push back.

Furthermore there is actually a filler episode that animated the Pain fight MUCH closer to the manga than the original anime pain fight did and it has adapted this scene with 1:1 accuracy. And there we see this exact lower end interpretation be true.

Kishimoto made infinity before Gege
Would he not get blown away if he actually got hit with it?

 

[DavidTPPM]

Shinra Tensei speed of light

A thread has already been made regarding the speed of Shinra Tensei being light speed. There were some issues that we need to check. 1) It was said that the speed would be slower in other medium including air. To clarify, gravitational waves, according to the current understanding in general...

vsbattles.com

I don’t think this thread addresses the concerns of the previous thread, particularly what Deceived brings up in the post I linked, that got this premise rejected.

I'm not super knowledgeable on this but are there any rules that state gravity must fulfill the same or similar requirements as light to be considered that fast?

Because if not then I don't see the need for them as long as there isn't anything outright contradictory to the idea. Otherwise it looks like we're appealing to imaginary rules for no reason

 

[sageof8paths]

Shinra Tensei speed of light

A thread has already been made regarding the speed of Shinra Tensei being light speed. There were some issues that we need to check. 1) It was said that the speed would be slower in other medium including air. To clarify, gravitational waves, according to the current understanding in general...

vsbattles.com

I don’t think this thread addresses the concerns of the previous thread, particularly what Deceived brings up in the post I linked, that got this premise rejected.

“The ability to manipulate gravity, one of the four fundamental forces that shape our universe.”

the site already accepts it as gravity manipulation.

In which the databook specifically lists gravity as a force in reference to one of the four.

The naruto verse depicts gravity very realistic and takes it seriously, which can be seen in naruto: the last implementing concepts like Roche limits, showing a realistic interpretation of what would happen if the moon collided with the earth,

as well as implementing concepts like the “potato radius” as to why chibaku tensei’s make up nearly perfect spheres out of random chuks of rocks.

Shinrai tensei consistently blitzes Sub-rel to Rel characters so there’s no inconsistencies

nitpicking for lightspeed statements are unnecessary. Similarly to how you don’t need a light beam to be stated as lightspeed to agree it’s LS on the wiki, but rather based on if it’s portrayed realistic or not.

If it’s accepted as gravitational manipulation, what properties of gravity does it follow, and which ones does it not?

the burden of proof is not on me to prove why gravity is not realistic in the naruto world.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Would he not get blown away if he actually got hit with it?

Yes but that wouldn't be instantaneous or at the speed of light. Meaning Naruto simply needs to stick his tails into the ground faster than his body gets pushed too far away.

In other words Naruto isn't reacting to the speed of the gravity on its own but the speed at which his body is being blasted away which isn't anywhere near 1c

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Personally, I’m neutral on whether ST is lightspeed or not lol. I just remembered many threads like this were made in the past and didn’t see much of anything new, so I linked the old threads here for context.

Just putting that out there so yall don’t think I’m ignoring you. I rather just don’t have a stake in the argument either way.

 

[sageof8paths]

That's an alright interpretation but that assumes kn6 Naruto knows a blast is coming before he even felt it and prepped before it reached him, something that's not consistent with Narutos mindless state here.

Just because he’s crashing out doesn’t mean he’s mindless. he’s been fighting pain and knows his abilities aside from that, Kurama who is one of the smartest characters, who has danger perception is directly influencing him and partly controlling him.

A more likely interpretation is that the set of events went like this:
Pain uses Shinra tensei Naruto gets hit and starts being pushed back in response he sticks his tails into the ground and stops the push back.

Furthermore there is actually a filler episode that animated the Pain fight MUCH closer to the manga than the original anime pain fight did and it has adapted this scene with 1:1 accuracy. And there we see this exact lower end interpretation be true.

this anime FILLER contradicts the events of the manga as clearly showing the tails coming in the ground before the shockwave. lirerally ADMITTED it’s filler and yet youre still using it.

 

[Floxy178]

That being said I disagree with kn6 Naruto from scaling to it. The only thing we can prove in that feat is that Naruto stuck his tails into the ground faster than his body got blasted away by the ST, not faster than the ST hit him. And while the gravity itself is SoL, the speed at which it moves Narutos body away would be unquantifiably lower.

Neutral on this tbh.

Sequence of panels and no visible effect on him(he doesn't seem to be moved) indicate that ST hadn't hit him, but speed of effect itself could be negligible compared to ST just as possible distance he moved.

 

[sageof8paths]

Yes but that wouldn't be instantaneous or at the speed of light. Meaning Naruto simply needs to stick his tails into the ground faster than his body gets pushed too far away.

In other words Naruto isn't reacting to the speed of the gravity on its own but the speed at which his body is being blasted away which isn't anywhere near 1c

again this is just false headcanon, using filler scenes to prove your point. the effect which is being argued for LS HAS NOT happened by the time he put his tails. if it did, we would have seen a shockwave before naruto stuck his tails but the manga sequencing is the other way around. youre only argument is headcanon filler

 

[Damage3245]

again this is just false headcanon, using filler scenes to prove your point. the effect which is being argued for LS HAS NOT happened by the time he put his tails. if it did, we would have seen a shockwave before naruto stuck his tails but the manga sequencing is the other way around. youre only argument is headcanon filler

It doesn't seem to be headcanon to me. David's explanation makes perfect sense regardless of the anime.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Just because he’s crashing out doesn’t mean he’s mindless. he’s been fighting pain and knows his abilities aside from that, Kurama who is one of the smartest characters, who has danger perception is directly influencing him and partly controlling him.

Naruto almost killed Jiraya and Sakura while in a lesser form, he absolutely is a mindless rage machine in this form. Saying he predicted an invisible attack makes no sense.

this anime FILLER contradicts the events of the manga as clearly showing the tails coming in the ground before the shockwave.

The manga doesn't even show Naruto and Pain as he's sticking his tails to the ground, only a close up of the tails themselves. So any claims that the ST has yet to hit Naruto is pure headcanon.
On top of that, we don't know if the shockwave in the second to last panel is even the ST hitting Naruto. Since after Naruto sticks his tails into the ground he starts clashing with the ST and applying opposing force to it.

lirerally ADMITTED it’s filler and yet youre still using it.

Yes. The anime is accepted as usable as long as the scenes are 1:1 (or close to it) with the manga.

And even if we reject it being used as evidence due to it coming from a filler despite it's striking accuracy, it still helps me illustrate what I'm trying to say happened. Calling it filler doesn't erase the fact it's a 1:1 anime adaptation of the manga and the closest thing we have to seeing what actually happened in motion.

 

[sageof8paths]

It doesn't seem to be headcanon to me. David's explanation makes perfect sense regardless of the anime.

your interpretation envisions an imaginary panel in which there’s a gravitational effect in between the activation panel and the tail panel. textbook headcanon

 

[DavidTPPM]

again this is just false headcanon,

Saying Naruto moved before it hit him is equally a headcanon except a higher assertion.

using filler scenes to prove your point.

That's not what I did, don't strawman me here.

youre only argument is headcanon filler

So is yours except yours is claiming mindless Naruto precoged an invisible attack and upscales him to rel+ ranges on top of it, while mine doesn't make any such assumptions.

Simply using occams razor points towards my interpretation as it requires less assumptions.

your interpretation envisions an imaginary panel in which there’s a gravitational effect in between the activation panel and the tail panel. textbook headcanon

Your interpretation envisions an imaginary panel in which there is no gravitational effect between activation and tail panel.
Also textbook headcanon except with a lot more claims

 

[Godernet]

Didn’t participate in the previous threads so I have no idea what got this rejected prior when I’m saying this

But if just manipulating Gravitational Force is really all it takes to be Light Speed by standards then ig that’s fine.

This doesn’t really effect scaling for anyone Pre-War Arc but possibly KN6.

And if KN6 scales, it doesn’t interact with the issues caused by Mabui since KN6 is faster and more durable than Base Ay and Tsunade.

A Light Speed jutsu isn’t exactly an outlier here either since it pretty much hits everyone he attempts it on with only the one exception listed prior, in a verse where everyone beneath Pain is Sub Rel to Rel at this point.

I’ll stay Neutral for now and see what arguments look like.

 

[Damage3245]

your interpretation envisions an imaginary panel in which there’s a gravitational effect in between the activation panel and the tail panel. textbook headcanon

We don't need the existence of such a panel for that.

 

[KingTempest]

Boutta make a site wide discussion rule at this point I'm ngl

 

[Damage3245]

Boutta make a site wide discussion rule at this point I'm ngl

Not a bad idea.

 

[Samlex1234]

Boutta make a site wide discussion rule at this point I'm ngl

For what exactly?

 

[KingTempest]

For what exactly?

This discussion. I see it once a year and it's honestly annoying. And it ain't just for Naruto either

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Yes but that wouldn't be instantaneous or at the speed of light. Meaning Naruto simply needs to stick his tails into the ground faster than his body gets pushed too far away.

In other words Naruto isn't reacting to the speed of the gravity on its own but the speed at which his body is being blasted away which isn't anywhere near 1c

Makes sense for now

pain should get SOL attack speed with ST tho

 

[KingTempest]

Jesus Christ

 

[Deceived3596]

"These goons shall know discussion rules" - @Arc7Kuroi

 

[Kachon123]

Lmao

 

[Samlex1234]

I'm neutral on 6 tails Naruto scaling, I agree to Lightspeed Attack Speed for Shinra Tensei.

 

[Floxy178]

Neutral on this tbh.

Sequence of panels and no visible effect on him(he doesn't seem to be moved) indicate that ST hadn't hit him, but speed of effect itself could be negligible compared to ST just as possible distance he moved.

Now disagree with scaling part knowing that ST even has to nullify Naruto's dash first to take effect which leads to more assumptions for scaling. (David's argument btw)

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Shinra Tensei speed of light

A thread has already been made regarding the speed of Shinra Tensei being light speed. There were some issues that we need to check. 1) It was said that the speed would be slower in other medium including air. To clarify, gravitational waves, according to the current understanding in general...

vsbattles.com

I don’t think this thread addresses the concerns of the previous thread, particularly what Deceived brings up in the post I linked, that got this premise rejected.

BarryAllen2.0 & TFO… yeesh

 

[Deceived3596]

Bump