Shinobi World Geography 101

[Ghostimuscrime]

Hello everyone! After 4 months of working in the background and speaking with off site people I am back to posting Naruto Revisions. Today’s CRT is to establish an updated value of 5040 km to be the new distance from Konoha to Suna

Konoha to Suna Distance Explanation Blog

vsbattles.fandom.com

Here is the updated blog, all relevant scans and arguments are present on there, including citations, raws, official translations, counter arguments and basically every general information that’s needed, if I’ve missed anything I’ll be more than happy to clarify here, Naruto’s always had good justification and arguments for these country sizes so I disliked how it wasn’t argued well on here in past threads but better late than never. The timeframe, the speeds, damn near everything about it is ridiculously consistent, we are also using directly stated speed values from the story itself instead of using a general speed of things calculated in real life through this we are minimizing chances of inaccuracy and requiring less steps & assumptions leading to a much more concrete and accurate-to-story result, not that the lack of it is an issue but it always helps to have them.

As a consequence of this, I would also like to propose a general shinobi stamina rating of supernatural, this saves up a lot of digging for feats especially for characters with low screentime since we know damn near all of them outside notable outliers have superhuman stamina anyway, I’ll let Alt take care of applying that but wanna get it accepted here

This took the entire summer as well as September to plan, construct & revise. Massive Thanks to @Rocker1189 , @Samlex1234 , @Shadowbokunohero and everyone else on and off wiki that helped out in its production
Anyways now that it is all laid out, it’s time we discuss!


Agree : DragonZeroNova, R81handman, Kaydee1648, Saqphire, DavidTPPM, 45Saef, Damage3245 (All but Speed), Ecronicron, AlternativePrinciple, Shadowbokunohero, Nierre, Testarossa002, Floxy178, Kidkinsey, Qawsedf234, LordTracer, Godernet, KingTempest, MattaGrimm
Disagree :
Neutral :

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Agree FRIB (reasons in blog)

 

[R81handman]

went through the blog and I agree. This is valid and solid distance for konoha to Suna

 

[Kaydee1648]

This looks good asf

 

[Saqphire]

Imagine all of this work done just to get denied like that one saitama calc lmfao

obvious agree

 

[DavidTPPM]

Ewww Suna is clearly at best 6-7 city blocks away from Konoha you goon.
Jokes aside I think this looks great.

like that one saitama calc lmfao

Which one?

 

[45Saef]

I’ve read the thread and skimmed through the former revised link; I agree FERA (For every reason above) (added my extra to the “FRA” them btw.)

 

[Saqphire]

Which one?

This one (lets not derail too much tho)

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Ewww Suna is clearly at best 6-7 city blocks away from Konoha you goon.

low-2c sized city blocks mind you

 

[Damage3245]

This is definitely well-researched and nicely formatted.

The one thing I'll note though, is that I think that 60 km/hr should be used instead of 70 km/hr.

This passage here:

Is not saying that shinobi are faster than blimps. It says that they were faster at travelling by foot than other, normal people would be [by foot].

It also explains that travelling by foot is more reliable for them as they can go down trackless paths and make their journey without a break. If they had to use a blimp out of necessity, then they would.

 

[Ecronicron]

Very well researched goat

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

This is definitely well-researched and nicely formatted.

ty goatie

The one thing I'll note though, is that I think that 60 km/hr should be used instead of 70 km/hr.
This passage here:
Is not saying that shinobi are faster than blimps. It says that they were faster at travelling by foot than other, normal people would be [by foot].
It also explains that travelling by foot is more reliable for them as they can go down trackless paths and make their journey without a break. If they had to use a blimp out of necessity, then they would.

The “if needed they'll go with trains and blimps” in that passage is not in reference to speed-based emergencies, it’s about specific mission contexts where using these transportation methods is simply more practical and almost necessary, such as escort missions, civilian transport e.g. escorting Katasuke (a non Shinobi) or transporting Kawaki in an airship where containment and monitoring is easier.

Yeah it does not say Shinobi are faster than these transport methods but it makes an implication, said they are so much faster than normal humans that they no longer need these methods due to having equal or greater benefits than what blimps and lightning trains could provide here, This preference is born first and foremost from the speed difference with humans to begin with, so interpreting them not as much faster than these transportation methods goes against the very premise of the sentence, if they weren't equal or superior they would be using it more which they don't

The narrative also consistently supports this with on screen showings as seen with Kankurō and Sakura both travelled on foot from Suna to Konoha despite the ticking emergencies in their respective contexts, in both of which Gaara ordered for their departure and neither of them opted for the train usage (as time was of the essence in these two contexts). In Boruto's case he used the freight trains to get to Suna (which still took him days) because he heard Sasuke was gonna be there which isn't all that important but after he witnessed the Urashiki fiasco and things got serious and they needed to come back to Konoha asap, they opted for the on foot travel instead of trains. So based on all that it is pretty much in you face that they are faster than these vehichles.

Furthermore, we'd use 80-90 kmph values if the 70 kmph value starts having problems since the train speeds are still there, I only went with the lower value because it is a stated value and by virtue would be more accurate.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think the passage says that shinobi are faster than trains either. Trains still have to go along pre-established routes are not necessarily going to be as fast as cutting across wild terrain on foot for shinobi in a straight line.

I still think that 60 km/hr would be better to use here, but I'm not going to get into a protracted argument about it. I'll just see what other staff members have to say. I'd appreciate it if you added in my vote to the OP as being in agreement for a 60 km/hr end.

 

[Samlex1234]

I don't think the passage says that shinobi are faster than trains either. Trains still have to go along pre-established routes are not necessarily going to be as fast as cutting across wild terrain on foot for shinobi in a straight line.

I still think that 60 km/hr would be better to use here, but I'm not going to get into a protracted argument about it. I'll just see what other staff members have to say. I'd appreciate it if you added in my vote to the OP as being in agreement for a 60 km/hr end.

“For them, their own two legs were the most reliable method of transport.”

The route argument for the train is irrelevant. Even if we assumed the train doesn’t travel in a perfectly straight line (though we have some evidence from Boruto that suggests a near perfect straight train route from Suna -Konaha), that’s only one part of the sentence. The passage doesn’t just compare shinobi to trains it also explicitly mentions blimps. And unlike trains, blimps have zero route restrictions. They can fly directly over forests, mountains, and deserts in straight lines. They don’t need tracks, roads, or terrain paths.
So if shinobi foot travel weren’t fast enough to be competitive with a blimp, calling their legs “the most reliable method of transport” would make no sense. A blimp, which ignores every terrain and route limitation, would automatically be the superior option every time. The only way the author’s statement logically works is if shinobi travel on foot is fast and efficient enough overall that it can outperform or meaningfully rival even a route-free vehicle like a blimp. Otherwise, a blimp would always be the better choice for long-distance travel given its location advantage as Shinobi actually have to jump over trees and other land based limitations.

There is no 60 km/hr end btw.

 

[Damage3245]

There is no 60 km/hr end btw.

Obviously not originally, that's why I'm suggesting one and being in favor of that.

“For them, their own two legs were the most reliable method of transport.”

The route argument for the train is irrelevant. Even if we assumed the train doesn’t travel in a perfectly straight line (though we have some evidence from Boruto that suggests a near perfect straight train route from Suna -Konaha), that’s only one part of the sentence. The passage doesn’t just compare shinobi to trains it also explicitly mentions blimps. And unlike trains, blimps have zero route restrictions. They can fly directly over forests, mountains, and deserts in straight lines. They don’t need tracks, roads, or terrain paths.
So if shinobi foot travel weren’t fast enough to be competitive with a blimp, calling their legs “the most reliable method of transport” would make no sense. A blimp, which ignores every terrain and route limitation, would automatically be the superior option every time. The only way the author’s statement logically works is if shinobi travel on foot is fast and efficient enough overall that it can outperform or meaningfully rival even a route-free vehicle like a blimp. Otherwise, a blimp would always be the better choice for long-distance travel given its location advantage as Shinobi actually have to jump over trees and other land based limitations.

Blimps can't necessarily go everywhere and in all forms of weather - they're also not very inconspicuous if a shinobi is on a secret mission. There would be still many reasons for why a shinobi would want to travel by foot somewhere rather than by blimp aside from purely speed-based reasons. Reliability doesn't necessarily mean fastest.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I don't think the passage says that shinobi are faster than trains either. Trains still have to go along pre-established routes are not necessarily going to be as fast as cutting across wild terrain on foot for shinobi in a straight line.

I still think that 60 km/hr would be better to use here, but I'm not going to get into a protracted argument about it

Yeah it does not say Shinobi are faster than these transport methods but it makes an implication, said they are so much faster than normal humans that they no longer need these methods due to having equal or greater benefits than what blimps and lightning trains could provide here, This preference is born first and foremost from the speed difference with humans to begin with, so interpreting them not as much faster than these transportation methods goes against the very premise of the sentence, if they weren't equal or superior they would be using it more which they don't

While it’s fine to agree to disagree on things I feel like this explanation which is the crux of the argument got unfairly ignored and not countered in your dismissal comment and I'd prefer to have it settled properly before adding your vote so as to not let a premature vote influence others

Blimps can't necessarily go everywhere and in all forms of weather - they're also not very conspicuous if a shinobi is on a secret mission.

legit none of the scenarios we used where people could benefit from a blimp (if it had better speeds) involve stealth as a requirement, not one

Instance 1 - Team 7 need to come heal Kankuro, no such need for stealth
Instance 2 - Sakura and Ino are returning to their home village to deliver vital information, again no such need for stealth
Instance 3 - Kankuro is coming to Konoha under Gaara's orders to deliver Shukaku after the fight with Urashiki, still 0 need for stealth, Konoha accepts and trusts Suna and especially anyone associated with Gaara

There would be still many reasons for why a shinobi would want to travel by foot somewhere rather than by blimp aside from purely speed-based reasons.

....Damage the text legit spells it out in your face that the reason for On-Foot-Travel preference is due to a speed difference, it only lists speed as a reason, it doesn't list anything else as reason, you don't have to inference goon for things that are explicitly confirmed.

 

[Damage3245]

While it’s fine to agree to disagree on things I feel like this explanation which is the crux of the argument got unfairly ignored and not countered in your dismissal comment and I'd prefer to have it settled properly before adding your vote so as to not let a premature vote influence others

Sorry, I don't want you to think it was ignored, it's just that I don't interpret it the same way you do. I don't think it's saying that they're faster than any transport option used by any ordinary person; to me it's saying they're faster than on their feet on than ordinary people.

legit none of the scenarios we used where people could benefit from a blimp (if it had better speeds) involve stealth as a requirement, not one

Instance 1 - Team 7 need to come heal Kankuro, no such need for stealth
Instance 2 - Sakura and Ino are returning to their home village to deliver vital information, again no such need for stealth
Instance 3 - Kankuro is coming to Konoha under Gaara's orders to deliver Shukaku after the fight with Urashiki, still 0 need for stealth, Konoha accepts and trusts Suna and especially anyone associated with Gaara

Do we know if blimps are used between Suna and Konoha, and if they had any available for them to use?

....Damage the text legit spells it out in your face that the reason for On-Foot-Travel preference is due to a speed difference, it only lists speed as a reason, it doesn't list anything else as reason, why are we inference gooning for explicitly confirmed things

I don't think it lists speed specifically there - or, to put it another way, the speed of a means of long-distance transport isn't just dependent on how fast something is, but what could get in its way to slow it down, the quoted section says:

"Shinobi could go down a trackless path, and make a journey of a thousand miles without a single break. For them, their own two legs were the most reliable method of transport. And there was all the more reason to go on foot when travelling in the desert, where no reliable roads were guaranteed."

Travelling without break and being be able to go their own route are two of the most pertinent reasons listed. A train for example may have multiple stops along the way, and don't always run in perfectly straight lines depending on the environment. In the desert, where there are no roads to make transport by other means easier, running by foot is preferable. If shinobi are always faster then what is the point of mentioning the issue of reliable roads? It wouldn't be any additional reason for them if there were roads or not.

There are many reasons why it may not be convenient to enlist a blimp for every long-distance travel; blimps still need to be fuelled and serviced, they can still be impacted by the weather as I mentioned, they may not have the required range, etc.

This will be my last post on the thread for a while due to the late hour; hopefully more staff members will have their own input on this, but I think you and I have gone over the information and shared each of our perspectives on it. I can discuss it a bit more later on but I don't want this spiralling out into a big argument.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Easy agree, amazing work as always Ghost

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

looks good

 

[Nierre]

Ghost’s interpretation makes more sense to me.

The passage doesn’t need to explicitly say trains are slower. The implications combined with the series’ consistent examples already point to that.

Implied meaning supported by canon is a lot stronger than ignoring the worldbuilding to take the line at absolute face value.

We also have instances of Sarada, Boruto, and Shikadai in the Academy pretty easily catching up to the Thunder Train within the village so it's very consistent.
(Especially the Sarada example, the Train had a couple minutes head start and she still managed to catch up with it)

 

[Testarossa002]

Nice work, Ghost
Agree FRA

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Sorry, I don't want you to think it was ignored, it's just that I don't interpret it the same way you do. I don't think it's saying that they're faster than any transport option used by any ordinary person; to me it's saying they're faster than on their feet on than ordinary people.

The issue here lies in interpretation, you are interpreting this as an isolated comment but doing such robs us of the contextual implications laid by the narrative, the two halves of the statement are intertwined and need each other for coherency and logical sense. It tells us that humans aren’t so fast and need vehicles for their usual but shinobi are faster than humans -and it doesn’t stop there- to a degree where they find it unideal to make use of these vehicles unless needed for situations like the Kawaki & Katasuke example that I’ve shown, so with that we know the can recreate the convenience that the vehicles can provide, now we established that the prime factor determining vehicular relevancy is speed, the text also only lists one singular and primary reason for their preference which happens to speed. So if the speed of shinobi gap humans so hard they find trains and blimps redundant as a whole the correct conclusion here is that they’re faster. And Naruto as a verse has enough weird shenanigans and absurd feats that such a thing like this are below mild so it’s perfectly consistent and sound all around.

Do we know if blimps are used between Suna and Konoha, and if they had any available for them to use?

I can’t guarantee this for the first instance but the second and third we definitely can, the statement of Shinobi opting out of blimp & trains usage was in regards to Sunagakure Shinobi in Gaara Hiden which is in the blank period era of the story, Sakura’s novel also took place in the blank period era and Kankuro’s scene happened wayy later in the Boruto era

I don't think it lists speed specifically there

The text outright says it’s because of speed it doesn’t cite anything else why would you use other things as disqualifying factors for the argument when they’re never once employed for it?

I don't think it lists speed specifically there - or, to put it another way, the speed of a means of long-distance transport isn't just dependent on how fast something is, but what could get in its way to slow it down, the quoted section says:
"Shinobi could go down a trackless path, and make a journey of a thousand miles without a single break. For them, their own two legs were the most reliable method of transport. And there was all the more reason to go on foot when travelling in the desert, where no reliable roads were guaranteed."
Travelling without break and being be able to go their own route are two of the most pertinent reasons listed. A train for example may have multiple stops along the way, and don't always run in perfectly straight lines depending on the environment. In the desert, where there are no roads to make transport by other means easier, running by foot is preferable. If shinobi are always faster then what is the point of mentioning the issue of reliable roads? It wouldn't be any additional reason for them if there were roads or not.

This section is kinda hyper appealing to nothing burger benefits that are never serious enough to act as the defining factor, travelling on foot can allow me to make a more direct pathing to my college, it'll also save me money but neither of these are convincing me to walk for hours to class, the advantage of time reduction and speed buff dwarves every other side benefit that it becomes the only defining factor regarding if I am to consider using the bus/subway

the routes in the train tracks are mostly a straight line so whatever you’re arguing for is at best inconsequential difference that would not remotely be sufficient to convince a shinobi to consider other methods

For Stealth, there's a plethora of mission types that aren't stealth missions, like seizing characters, rescuing characters, sending aid, invasion etc, it doesn't make up that significant of a percentage and for the tiny section it does make up it doesn't necessitate you travel the whole god damn cross country distance on foot

Let’s say going from home to office takes 5 hours in a train and 11 days on foot, you can't enter your office door with your car.

1) You can either travel the whole distance on foot

2) or you can travel 80% of the distance in your car and continue the rest on the foot

One of these options are more practical for both, you'd really only ever make sense to choose option 1 if you dwarf the shit out of your car in speed, otherwise it's a pretty trash choice lol

So even hyper appealing to negligible factors that are never once cited as the reason for shinobi preference still doesn't help us come to a conclusion where it makes sense for them to not have the big speeds, they get the benefit from a logical standpoint as well as from explicitly written in-your-face statements.

There are many reasons why it may not be convenient to enlist a blimp for every long-distance travel; blimps still need to be fuelled and serviced, they can still be impacted by the weather as I mentioned, they may not have the required range, etc.

Ehh not really, fueling stops don't take that long, we saw the freight train in Boruto stop for like a 5 minute inspection and then they set off just like that, they don't take up that much time to a point where they make any visible difference. The TTC stops to pick up passengers when travelling that doesn't stop me from using it lol. The weather conditions oddly remain consistent, the naruto countries generally stick to one specific typa weather throughout their entire runs, it sometimes rains in the LOF, LOW is stated to have very low amount of yearly rainfall and mostly maintains that harsh desert-like conditions. So yeah those factors don't amount to anything in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Damage3245]

I've said what I've wanted to for the thread for further arguing feels like it would be talking in circles, so I'll let other staff makes their evaluations. Thank you for the response Ghost, but I don't think your arguments change my interpretation of that novel passage.

I will note though:

the routes in the train tracks are mostly a straight line so whatever you’re arguing for is at best inconsequential difference that would not remotely be sufficient to convince a shinobi to consider other methods

These screenshots show at best a few hundred meters length of track out of a total journey distance of thousands of kilometers? You can't draw any kind of conclusion for the length of the whole track based on these images.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Fair Enough, for what it's worth it's good to see your name in the agreement pile for a positive naruto crt even it isn't a full agreement lol

Edit :

These screenshots show at best a few hundred meters length of track out of a total journey distance of thousands of kilometers? You can't draw any kind of conclusion for the length of the whole track based on these images.

the routes in the train tracks are mostly a straight line

We consistently see a straight track in every instance without much divergence so it's safe to infer most of it to be like so, if a geographical setting consistently portrays one specific quality it's fair to assume that would reflect majority of the space if it isn't the entirety.

 

[Damage3245]

We consistently see a straight track in every instance without much divergence so it's safe to infer most of it to be like so

Here's a screenshot of the road connecting Los Angeles and Washington D.C. You wouldn't conclude that the entire route between Los Angeles and Washington D.C. was a straight line based on this, would you?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Bro is NOT gonna let me sleep

Here's a screenshot of the road connecting Los Angeles and Washington D.C. You wouldn't conclude that the entire route between Los Angeles and Washington D.C. was a straight line based on this, would you?

1) I said mostly not all
2) That's one showing where as the Boruto episodes have several consistent showings, you can also find more contradictory evidence for the real world but we can't do for the Boruto one, allowing the consistency to speak and help us to extrapolate.
3) You can't compare real world routes with Konoha Suna locations, with our world you gotta change directions so to as to not collide with other houses, properties, landmarks, with Land of Wind specifically it's just barren desert mostly with it's population residing in Suna and not in the outskirts, with no one blocking your way it is much easier to laydown a straight track in open space for time efficiency.

 

[Damage3245]

Bro is NOT gonna let me sleep

lol, go get some rest. I just wanted to dispute that one point because I don't think you can extrapolate "most" of the route from such a tiny sample size.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I don't think you can extrapolate "most" of the route from such a tiny sample size.

All of them show the same thing time and time again, it's never implied to be a different so assuming greater portions of it have similar qualities is a pretty fair assumption actually, especially backed up by the land being empty open space where it is the most reasonable to construct straight tracks, every piece of evidence we do have point toward one conclusion and not the other

lol, go get some rest

bet

 

[Floxy178]

I also agree with the thread, well done!

 

[Kidkinsey]

Agree with the thread, tons of supplementary evidence to help get the point across.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Looks fine. Though as a note at such large distance the Earth's curvature would make 2D maps not entirely to scale. So other map calcs would need to take that into account (the distance itself is unaffected for this calc).

 

[LordTracer]

Looks good to me.

 

[Godernet]

This looks very well done overall, I agree.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Wowzers this might be my most universally agreed on thread yet, thanks for the evaluation everyone!

 

[KingTempest]

I think this is a well put together thread. I'm not against this OP at all and I think I can honestly agree, some nitpicks in the blog but it's against supports and not the primary point.

Issue is that we had an issue against all Konoha-Suna calcs for the continent sizes from this thread years ago. I know it's old but the arguments still stand.

Where do we go from here?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I think this is a well put together thread. I'm not against this OP at all and I think I can honestly agree, some nitpicks in the blog but it's against supports and not the primary point.

Issue is that we had an issue against all Konoha-Suna calcs for the continent sizes from this thread years ago. I know it's old but the arguments still stand.

Where do we go from here?

I’m not quite sure which issue you are referring to, would you mind clarifying?

 

[KingTempest]

I’m not quite sure which issue you are referring to, would you mind clarifying?

So the initial issue corresponding with utilizing the size of the Konoha-Suna run was that it conflicted with a lot of the war arc feats, where people (of similar caliber) were crossing relative distances in the span of hours instead of several days like the Konoha distance, so things like across the land of lightning and such.

It then became an argument of consistency, and we (back then) agreed to just compare Konoha to the planet using the shots from The Last.

Now, it seems like Boruto added onto the consistency points (good job with the blog), so I think that previous point is moot, it just needs to be formally addressed. Something like "prior we used to utilize the planet to calculate the size of the continents due to inconsistencies with the statement of traveling konoha, but due to boruto enforcing these distances years after the resolution of the initial series, these arguments can be considered moot".

Basically, just address the old thread and you should be good to go.

Now, I'll let those who disagreed with the ninjas' speed disagree with it, but I think the statement is workable, just needs to address what's already in place.

 

[Damage3245]

We'd have to have a Calc Group thread to discuss which method is better if alternative calculations are made regarding the various Biju Bomb calcs and other calcs that use the planet shot method from The Last.

 

[KingTempest]

We'd have to have a Calc Group thread to discuss which method is better if alternative calculations are made regarding the various Biju Bomb calcs and other calcs that use the planet shot method.

I don't disagree, I think this thread is a good foundation for the collection of arguments for the konoha to suna calculation though, but if we do have a conflict of calcs then according to the rules you'd be right

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Basically, just address the old thread and you should be good to go.

No probs, I'll work up something after my class ends

EDIT : Ima just edit and put this here so as to not diverge the current topic of the thread,


The war arc represents the single most urgent crisis in shinobi history, we have the kage setting aside personal differences for the sake of the world, this war is the only situation with the literal survival of the world at stake. in which Guy would consider using the eight gate, a technique that results in certain death of a shinobi, Gaara reinforces the urgency of the situation to the shinobi in the alliance bickering among each other, urging them to settle differences post war and to have them temporarily band together, the shinobi accept this message and request in their heart and as such all the bickering and village disputes cease from existence resulting in resolve amped shinobi ready to fight for the safety of the whole world. In such contexts, extraordinary effort and performance can be expected that do not necessarily reflect baseline capabilities. Characters are explicitly portrayed across the series as drawing on emotional resolve to exceed their normal limits. Gaara’s speech reinvigorates their will, their morale and their energy to fight in the war, followed up by a visual showcasing of all shinobi earnestly traversing the battlefield. This serves as one of the strongest instances of resolve-induced amps.
The several consistent manga statements and multiple supplementary materials that all reinforce multi-day travel times not just within the main story but several times even after it ends as seen in the blank period era as well as the Boruto era letting us know that the 3 day timeframe is still the true timeframe overriding the old thread's outlierish points and rendering them null