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shin megami tensei quick upgrade

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addtion to demons attacking information directly:

soul hackers 2 shows that memories stored inside the soul are also made of information, so they have memory manipulation for basic attacks, not just mind/soul and concept manipulation. This by extension would give another justification for memory resistance, but not just for mid tiers in cogntitve psologhy

The data that makes up one's soul looks the same as the data that makes up memories. Memories are also stored in the soul

and high 3-a range for mind control abilities for the whole verse (just read this blog and search "mind is infinite")

low tier persona users get limited fusionism and damage boost because fusion attacks in persona 3 though I don't think anyone outside of p3 uses them in character
 
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soul hackers 2 shows that memories stored inside the soul are also made of information, so they have memory manipulation for basic attacks, not just mind/soul and concept manipulation. This by extension would give another justification for memory resistance, but not just for mid tiers in cogntitve psologhy
This needs scans and evidence.

and high 3-a range for mind control abilities for the whole verse (just read this blog and search "mind is infinite")
This would not only be redundant, but you're also taking information from the blog entirely out of context. What you're referencing is actually describing the mental, archetypal realm of the Kadath Mandala. One quote from the cosmology blog that isn't even from the source material isn't solid justification for any range rating.

low tier persona users get limited fusionism and damage boost because fusion attacks in persona 3 though I don't think anyone outside of p3 uses them in character
I'm fine with this.
 
This needs scans and evidence.


This would not only be redundant, but you're also taking information from the blog entirely out of context. What you're referencing is actually describing the mental, archetypal realm of the Kadath Mandala. One quote from the cosmology blog that isn't even from the source material isn't solid justification for any range rating.


I'm fine with this.
I sent the scans to you in the discussion thread

This would not only be redundant, but you're also taking information from the blog entirely out of context. What you're referencing is actually describing the mental, archetypal realm of the Kadath Mandala. One quote from the cosmology blog that isn't even from the source material isn't solid justification for any range rating.

High 3-A range isn't redundant. Its talking about the human mind being infinite, not the entire mental realm
 
I sent the scans to you in the discussion thread
And this is a CRT. Link the evidence for others.

High 3-A range isn't redundant. Its talking about the human mind being infinite, not the entire mental realm
Reread the section you're quoting from. Also, Minds = Souls in Megami Tensei, so the range of any mental ailment skills would be the exact same as any other attack.
 
And this is a CRT. Link the evidence for others.


Reread the section you're quoting from. Also, Minds = Souls in Megami Tensei, so the range of any mental ailment skills would be the exact same as any other attack.

Reread the section you're quoting from. Also, Minds = Souls in Megami Tensei, so the range of any mental ailment skills would be the exact same as any other attack.

The other stuff in the section is irrelevant here. Only the mental and spiritual damage will have high 3-A range, its not like a demon physically affects an infinite amount of space with their attacks
 
Only the mental and spiritual damage will have high 3-A range, its not like a demon physically affects an infinite amount of space with their attacks
Every character is capable of effecting each other's mind/souls with their own attacks. They wouldn't be able to hit or kill one another if that wasn't the case.
 
low tier persona users get limited fusionism and damage boost because fusion attacks in persona 3 though I don't think anyone outside of p3 uses them in character
Only very specific Persona User's are shown able to use Fusion Spell's (Persona 2 cast and Persona 3 Protag, arguably Persona 4 cast if you see those attack's as the same thing, which would be fair.), and I don't think it's a good idea to assume those who aren't shown to use them as being able to. Unless there was some evidence to suggest it could apply to other Persona User's, it should only apply to a select few Persona User's.
 
Only very specific Persona User's are shown able to use Fusion Spell's (Persona 2 cast and Persona 3 Protag, arguably Persona 4 cast if you see those attack's as the same thing, which would be fair.), and I don't think it's a good idea to assume those who aren't shown to use them as being able to. Unless there was some evidence to suggest it could apply to other Persona User's, it should only apply to a select few Persona User's.
Normally I'd agree with this line of reasoning, but since all Persona users should have the same powers and abilities by virtue of having a Persona, the feats of one cast should be applicable to others. Fusion spells are likely an ability intrinsic to all Persona users.
 
Normally I'd agree with this line of reasoning, but since all Persona users should have the same powers and abilities by virtue of having a Persona, the feats of one cast should be applicable to others. Fusion spells are likely an ability intrinsic to all Persona users.
Likewise, I would normally agree with this line of thought for most Persona capabilities, but we have no indication that just because certain people know how to use said power, that Yusuke can use it (For example). It's like skills such as Megidolaon- We have no indication that, say, Chie can use Megidolaon, even though it's a ability linked primarily to Persona's. Different Persona's are shown to have certain different capabilities (Such as Certain Persona's being Navigators, or Akechi's Berserk inducement.). We know certain things to be true of all Persona's, namely their cognitive Physiology, but Fusion Spells are much less consistent or clarified than Cognitive Physiology. Fusion Spells are also shown to be somewhat limited on the Persona's (though this could be waived as a game mechanic); Orpheus can use a Fusion Spell with Apsara, but Messiah has no Fusion Spells. Only certain pairs in P4 can use their combo moves. Only Certain Persona's can use Fusion Spells in P2, etc. It seems much more likely that Fusion Spells and similar abilities are more of a case by case basis, as there is little indication that this is a intrinsic ability tied to all Persona's. It's the same reason why certain characters have certain movesets; Its dependent on the Persona's in question, from what I observe.
 
It's like skills such as Megidolaon- We have no indication that, say, Chie can use Megidolaon, even though it's a ability linked primarily to Persona's. Different Persona's are shown to have certain different capabilities (Such as Certain Persona's being Navigators, or Akechi's Berserk inducement.).
This is a false equivalency. As I said before (and as you mention later in your own response), I'm proposing that the ability is intrinsic to the inherent Cognitive Physiology of Personas (and by extension their users). Specific spells, such as Megidoloan, are not able to be utilized necessarily by any Persona user. Likewise, specialized abilities like Adachi or Akechi's Shadow manipulation aren't either, and have justifications in-lore for why their users have the ability.

We know certain things to be true of all Persona's, namely their cognitive Physiology, but Fusion Spells are much less consistent or clarified than Cognitive Physiology.
I'm unsure what exactly you mean by this. Many of the abilities afforded from the page aren't explicitly stated to be beheld by every Demon or Shadow, but are rather logically extrapolated from multiple instances of different Demons using said abilities. One such example is cloning. There are no quotes or statements that indubitably or directly confirm that all Demons and Shadows can clone themselves, however, there are numerous examples of various Demons throughout different games displaying the ability to duplicate.

It seems much more likely that Fusion Spells and similar abilities are more of a case by case basis, as there is little indication that this is a intrinsic ability tied to all Persona's. It's the same reason why certain characters have certain movesets; Its dependent on the Persona's in question, from what I observe.
We can use the same line of logic I described before to determine whether or not the ability is intrinsic. From the cast of the Persona 2 duology, to the protagonist of Persona 3, and even spin-off characters, Persona users, regardless of the context or setting, have displayed the ability to perform fusion spells. There's no evidence to suggest such an ability should be evaluated individually, nor or there any (outside of gameplay mechanics) that imply it's relegated to specific Persona users only (just look at the Tsumi to Batsu scan, where normal Persona users are seen utilizing fusion spells without any specific explanation in regards to how they're able to do so).

EDIT: Fixed the link to the manga scan.
 
This is a false equivalency. As I said before (and as you mention later in your own response), I'm proposing that the ability is intrinsic to the inherent Cognitive Physiology of Personas (and by extension their users). Specific spells, such as Megidoloan, are not able to be utilized necessarily by any Persona user. Likewise, specialized abilities like Adachi or Akechi's Shadow manipulation aren't either, and have justifications in-lore for why their users have the ability.
Fusion Spell's function much like Other spell's in the fact that they are selected to be used via A Persona, or in this case, via multiple Persona. There is no reason to believe that Fusion Spell's are far removed from attacks like Megidolaon; Both are used in similar way's in game, and both are specific to certain Persona's. There are more cases where character's are able to use Megidolaon, too; Naoto and Akechi learn it, any Protag can use it, Elizabeth Uses it, Adachi Uses it if I recall correct in his boss fight, literally half of the P3 Cast use it in The Answer, etc. There is arguably more evidence that a move such as Megidolaon is more wide spread than Fusion Spells. And why exactly would Fusion Spell's be inherently intrinsic to the physiology of Persona's? Is there any evidence of that being the case? In order for things like Cognitive Phisiology to have been passed for Persona's, there had to multiple scans supporting it, correct? I would hope that at least one scan could be produced by the supportive side of the argument in this case that implies that Persona's would inherently have Fusion Spell's as part of their Physiology.

Tl;dr, There are as many or more cases where many persona User's can use moves like Megidolaon than there are cases of different Persona User's using Fusion Spell's, so the argument that said spell's are not used by many character's seems like a... False, Inequivalence? That's not a term but, the point is that it seems like a inaccurate assessment, as the two actually share more similarities than Fusion Spell's would with the inherent abilities all Persona's have.

I'm unsure what exactly you mean by this. Many of the abilities afforded from the page aren't explicitly stated to be beheld by every Demon or Shadow, but are rather logically extrapolated from multiple instances of different Demons using said abilities. One such example is cloning. There are no quotes or statements that indubitably or directly confirm that all Demons and Shadows can clone themselves, however, there are numerous examples of various Demons throughout different games displaying the ability to duplicate.
That's vastly different, as there is little evidence to say that Demon's wouldn't have such a ability. I'm not a SMT expert specifically, so bear with me, but if I recall correctly, even the weakest and least haxy Demons show occasions they can multiply, correct? Inversely, very few Persona User's actually show Fusion Spell's; Only the Persona 2 cast, the manga cast, and P3 MC are capable of them from what we can see, with a few other dubious cases one could debate. SMT Demon's and Persona Shadow' show time and time again, over and over and with a much vaster array of Beings the ability to clone. Of course, I could be partially wrong as, again, I do not proclaim to be a greater SMT fan, only a Persona Fan, but it seems that one has a larger array of instances that lend credence than the other; Neither the remaining P3 cast outside the MC, the P1 cast, P5 Cast, and likely P4 cast show this ability; I also believe that the Trinity Soul cast do not show Fusion Spell's. The vast majority of Character's do not show the capability, nor are they implied to have the capability, of having Fusion Spell's as a option in combat.

We can use the same line of logic I described before to determine whether or not the ability is intrinsic. From the cast of the Persona 2 duology, to the protagonist of Persona 3, and even spin-off characters, Persona users, regardless of the context or setting, have displayed the ability to perform fusion spells. There's no evidence to suggest such an ability should be evaluated individually, nor or there any (outside of gameplay mechanics) that imply it's relegated to specific Persona users only (just look at the Tsumi to Batsu scan, where normal Persona users are seen utilizing fusion spells without any specific explanation in regards to how they're able to do so).

EDIT: Fixed the link to the manga scan.

I am regretful to say that I currently cannot look at the Spin Off Scan, the only instance I am unfamiliar with, due to the Wifi network I am presently using, and for that I apologize. However, following this logic, outside of Gameplay Mechanics, what implies Megidolaon cannot be used by every Persona User outside of Game Mechanics? Very little, from what I know. In fact, there are many instance's of many Persona User's, weather Highly Adaptable (The Protag's), A unusal oddity (Adachi or Akechi), and even Normal Persona User's (Naoto, P3 Cast) being capable of using Megidolaon. There is very little difference between the two examples outside of one requiring Two Persona's. And that's another thing- How do we even know it's Fusionism? It seems more like the two Persona's tend to use their skills together and at the same time to produce a greater effect, but that doesn't inherently need Fusionism- Character's like Naruto and Sasuke from the hit Naruto Franchise are shown able to perform team attack's that combine their skills/abilities, but are not called fusionism; Most Fusion spell's seem much the same, not necessarily fusing their abilities rather than combining their attack's/skills to produce greater results. If this can be called fusionism, then technically, shouldn't every character get Fusionism, as they can combine their abilities together to produce heightened results?

I know this may sound like multiple false equivalencies and dramatic over the top examples, but that's indicitive of how ludicrous I find giving all of them Fusionism is.
 
Fusion Spell's function much like Other spell's in the fact that they are selected to be used via A Persona, or in this case, via multiple Persona. There is no reason to believe that Fusion Spell's are far removed from attacks like Megidolaon; Both are used in similar way's in game, and both are specific to certain Persona's.
Tl;dr, There are as many or more cases where many persona User's can use moves like Megidolaon than there are cases of different Persona User's using Fusion Spell's, so the argument that said spell's are not used by many character's seems like a... False, Inequivalence? That's not a term but, the point is that it seems like a inaccurate assessment, as the two actually share more similarities than Fusion Spell's would with the inherent abilities all Persona's have.
This is another false equivalency in addition to being a rather vague argument. "Fusion Spells" is an umbrella term for a combination of two or more spells that form a unique attack. It's a technique, not a power that one either does possess or does not possess. Furthermore, outside of how they operate in Persona 3, Fusion Spells are generally treated as the literal merging of multiple spells into a greater, enhanced one (also see the Tsumi to Batsu scan from my last message). The similarities you're drawing essentially boil down to "they are both attacks that can be used Persona users", when there is explicit evidence that proves fusion spells are combinations of multiple Personas' powers (refer to previous scans).

There are more cases where character's are able to use Megidolaon, too; Naoto and Akechi learn it, any Protag can use it, Elizabeth Uses it, Adachi Uses it if I recall correct in his boss fight, literally half of the P3 Cast use it in The Answer, etc.
However, following this logic, outside of Gameplay Mechanics, what implies Megidolaon cannot be used by every Persona User outside of Game Mechanics? Very little, from what I know. In fact, there are many instance's of many Persona User's, weather Highly Adaptable (The Protag's), A unusal oddity (Adachi or Akechi), and even Normal Persona User's (Naoto, P3 Cast) being capable of using Megidolaon. There is very little difference between the two examples outside of one requiring Two Persona's.
If you're trying to apply that line of logic to specific spells, it wouldn't be applicable. As I stated previously, spells are binary: one either has the ability to use one, or they don't. Thus there is an explanation behind why one would or wouldn't be able to use a particular. Additionally, fusion spells would be usable by any Persona user, as any combination of any spells counts as such. Fusion Spells work under a different principle, anyone who can use spells should be able to perform a fusion spell with another user (or with themselves, in the case of the Wildcards).

And why exactly would Fusion Spell's be inherently intrinsic to the physiology of Persona's? Is there any evidence of that being the case? In order for things like Cognitive Phisiology to have been passed for Persona's, there had to multiple scans supporting it, correct? I would hope that at least one scan could be produced by the supportive side of the argument in this case that implies that Persona's would inherently have Fusion Spell's as part of their Physiology.
The scans I produced previously are the evidence. Each scan shows an instance of various Persona users, all of whom gained their Personas under different circumstances, performing fusion spells. The proof that such an ability is present in all Persona users is the logical assumption based on the fact that 1. There are no canon explanations behind how one can use fusion spells, and 2. A multitude of Persona users are shown to be capable of using fusion spells without any explanation as to why they're able to. The most reasonable explanation, based off of the evidence shown, that Persona users wouldn't all be capable of using the technique.

That's vastly different, as there is little evidence to say that Demon's wouldn't have such a ability. I'm not a SMT expert specifically, so bear with me, but if I recall correctly, even the weakest and least haxy Demons show occasions they can multiply, correct? Inversely, very few Persona User's actually show Fusion Spell's; Only the Persona 2 cast, the manga cast, and P3 MC are capable of them from what we can see, with a few other dubious cases one could debate.
This is entierly conjecture on your part, and also founded off of incomplete information or a misunderstanding. The scans linked in the Cognitive Physiology, to my knowledge, are the only explicit instances of Demons using such abilities. A total of three different Demons, out of the thousands that have been depicted in the franchise (and the infinite number of them that exist in-lore), that have displayed duplication/cloning abilities outright. However, we can logically assume that the ability is inherent to all Demons because there's nothing from any of the examples' mythological origins that would justify them possessing such an ability, nor is are their explanations within the stories themselves that would clarify them either. Thus, the most reasonable conclusion is to assume that the ability comes from their physiology, as opposed to a specific factor. This same principle would be applied to fusion spells.

How do we even know it's Fusionism? It seems more like the two Persona's tend to use their skills together and at the same time to produce a greater effect, but that doesn't inherently need Fusionism- Character's like Naruto and Sasuke from the hit Naruto Franchise are shown able to perform team attack's that combine their skills/abilities, but are not called fusionism; Most Fusion spell's seem much the same, not necessarily fusing their abilities rather than combining their attack's/skills to produce greater results. If this can be called fusionism, then technically, shouldn't every character get Fusionism, as they can combine their abilities together to produce heightened results?
I actually agree with this point, after reviewing the evidence. I was under the impression that a fusion spell entailed a partial fusion of each Persona involved, though this is evidently not the case. Even with Makoto Yuki and Kotone Shiomi, they're only summoning two Personas at once in order to combine their two spells. Thus, I disagree with Fusionism.
 
My verdict on the CRT (thus far):
-I disagree with the logic for Memory Manipulation/Attacks proposed in the OP. However, since the Mind/Soul has been shown to contain memories, I'm fine with the addition (with a revised justification). Something to the effect of "Memories are stored within the Mind/Soul should suffice".
-Neutral on High 3-A Soul/Mind/Information/Concept attack range.
-I'm fine with Damage Boost (but no Fusionism) via Fusion Spells being added to Persona users' pages.
 
Is it ok if I add damage boost to persona users, its not really controversial
 
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