Shield Hero (WN) Concept Manip clarification

[DontTalkDT]

Currently the Shield Hero WN characters have concept stuff without mentioning which type it is.

This should be changed to Type 3.
We are never really told much about what concepts are in Shield Hero. All we are really ever told is that conceptual attacks are attacks that just achieve an effect without going through the process of getting there.

“She used attacks with things like infinity, and 100%, and unlimited in their names. If you don’t know exactly what she did… I guess they were conceptual attacks. Since she attacked past, present, and future, it looks like she can do temporal attacks too. If she even attacked parallel worlds, she really, REALLY wanted you dead, man.”

“Conceptual attack…” (Naofumi)


I try to remember that Damn Goddess’s attack.

I died without knowing anything.

It was probably that.


“Right. She just faces her enemies, and declares as such. It’s like the logic of a child’s game. The means don’t actually matter, as long as she transmits the message 『The Enemy has Died』 across. Even if you used all the means in the world, I doubt you would be able to beat an enemy like that. She politely told you she was eternal, and immortal, and perpetual, or something like that, and she seemed to be obsessive over her speed too, so she must be quite the battle maniac.”


Pushing messages onto people…

Honestly, I have no idea what he’s talking about, but let’s forget common sense for a second.

Normally, you would have to damage an enemy, and they would die in a pool of their own blood.

If you take away the damage and the blood, the enemy dies without anything happening to them.

I really doubt such a thing is possible, but she definitely did something crazy and illogical like that.

From the "An Enemy of an Enemy is" chapter in the last Arc.

So yeah, very little explanation, hence default to Type 3.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks fine.

 

[Abstractions]

Sure, no problems here.

 

[YungManzi]

Under the previous wording, it would be type 1 just because she can enforce the concept of death on a 2-A level across worlds with completely different laws, realities, and time-axis's, and presumably concepts; so since it's not a personal concept, it's at least type 2.

Yes… I guess you could call it death.

It’s like she materialized the concept of death itself. That’s the sort of feeling I got.

I don’t know why I was able to see it.

In truth, Medea’s attack was much faster than my own sense of perception, so there’s no way I should have been able to see it. ~356

Via Naofumi's own statement, he says she materialized the concept of death, and he doesn't know why he could see it.

It's worth noting that this is not actually infinity destroyer as we know it, and is just a causal death beam of hers.

「Perfect Slave」


Starting with me, she used a power that selected Heroes at random, and stole their weapons and spirits while killing their owners. A Conceptual attack.

Here, we see that concepts are not something she can only apply to Infinity Destroyer, as Naofumi also calls her weapon theft power a conceptual attack

But I don’t think she’ll be able to figure out I’ve become a being close to her. IF she had, she would have immediately erased me with a conceptual attack, or something. If that happened, I would immediately counterattack, though.~366

Here Naofumi says she could erase him with conceptual attacks before he became a god slayer. This is sort of to support my take below, as well as the concept being a true abstraction.

“M-Motoyasu…?”


Seeing his limp, motionless body, I couldn’t muster any words.

Eventually.


“Ah–”


Motoyasu’s body glowed gold, and dispersed into the air.

As if no one had been lying there to start with. ~356

^Via this, she also has either deconstruction or some kind of EE.

So... I propose Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2), Deconstruction, Existence Erasure, and pretty much every power here

Edit: This is literally just me seeing a malty thread and remembering that I planned on revising her myself at some point kek.

 

[YungManzi]

I couldn’t even see it before, but now I can follow it.

Red, and black.

Threads… each and every one links to death. They’re imbued with a concept to bring an end to all possibilities.

And those threads, just how many hundreds, thousands, millions… She has an amount there beyond my counting prowess.

~372

A concept which can bring an end to all possibilities is clearly not type 3, although DT I believe you think this is a sort of play on words or figurative speech and concept is not supposed to be taken literally here?

While she was supposed to be erased from the Laws of the World, the power she left behind made her remain in everyone’s memories.

The Lynchpin had worked from the start, and most of it still remained.

Or else perhaps my own existence would vanish.

Along with the worlds’ legend of the four heroes.


“That Bitch Goddess disappeared without leaving anything behind. It’s our… victory.” (Naofumi)~Same chapter

Further supporting EE and higher concept stuff, she was erased from the laws of the world and disappeared without leaving anything behind when her attack was reflected upon her.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The type of a concept is entirely independent on the scale of the concept manipulation. It's just dependent on its nature. Just because you can use the ability on infinite people simultaneously (it's 2-A in range only), does not give it a higher type.
For type 2, the concepts would need to be explained to be the source of the properties of objects. Like, it would need statements like "changing the concept of circles, changes all circles".
There is nothing of such a nature given.

 

[YungManzi]

The type of a concept is entirely independent on the scale of the concept manipulation. It's just dependent on its nature. Just because you can use the ability on infinite people simultaneously (it's 2-A in range only), does not give it a higher type.
For type 2, the concepts would need to be explained to be the source of the properties of objects. Like, it would need statements like "changing the concept of circles, changes all circles".
There is nothing of such a nature given.

That was just one thing I said, using it as supporting evidence. I would like you to address everything I laid out point by point, and go over why the manipulation is likely type 3 over type 2. I'll list them more clearly.

1) Generally, you cannot apply a type 3 concept across different worlds which all have different realities and laws.

Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon.

Type 3 is mostly either for concepts limited or specified in scale and/or not really explained beyond merely being called concepts. Most concepts that don't fit either descriptions are type 2 by default and you don't actually need a statement or direct feat which says "changing the concept of circles, changes all circles". And I'm saying this based on what's already accepted in other verses.

Don't believe me DT?

Arifureta concepts are accepted as type 2 just for being called "fundamental abstract concepts that govern the laws of the universe."

Now let's go over the stuff I provided to see if it meets that standard.

2)

I perceive her targets. It’s everybody here, and every chain binding her to this world.

And… the Laws of this world that preside over them.


She has enough power output to reduce them all to nothingness.

It’s completely different than any attack she’s displayed before.~374

^Keep in mind she's using a conceptual attack here.

Naofumi says that she has enough power output, using this conceptual attack, to reduce the laws of the world to nothingness.

While she was supposed to be erased from the Laws of the World, the power she left behind made her remain in everyone’s memories.

The Lynchpin had worked from the start, and most of it still remained.

Or else perhaps my own existence would vanish.

Along with the worlds’ legend of the four heroes.


“That Bitch Goddess disappeared without leaving anything behind. It’s our… victory.” (Naofumi)~Same chapter

Here, Naofumi says that she was erased from the laws of the world. Then says the only reason people could remember her was because of the power she left behind. Which also makes sense that all of her power couldn't completely be erased, given she has some resistance to her own conceptual attacks.

He also states multiple times in this chapter that the law of cause and effect itself doesn't affect her conceptual attacks. To be clear, not just cause and effect, the very law of cause and effect has no bearing on her conceptual attacks and she can erase people from the laws of the universe using them.

Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence.

That sounds like it governs reality to me.

3) Naofumi says her threads of death are imbued with the concept to bring an end to all possibilities. Which doesn't mean anything on its own, but when paired with everything else is supporting evidence that the concept manipulation is not limited in scope, nor is it limited in efficiency.

TLDR;

The threshold simply being concepts that govern reality, so if we consider law to be an aspect of reality to govern like the verse from my example above, this should fit the type 2 standard.

1) Her conceptual powers work independent of laws of not just this universe but all universes on a 2-A scale.

2) Her conceptual powers can reduce the laws of the world to nothingness, and erase people from the laws of the world.

3) When she erases people from the laws of the world with her conceptual attacks, people around them lose their memories of them (Only didn't happen to her because of her own lingering power)


DT please tell me you at least agree with my deconstruction and EE additions.

 

[DontTalkDT]

That was just one thing I said, using it as supporting evidence. I would like you to address everything I laid out point by point, and go over why the manipulation is likely type 3 over type 2. I'll list them more clearly.

1) Generally, you cannot apply a type 3 concept across different worlds which all have different realities and laws.

Type 3 is mostly either for concepts limited or specified in scale and/or not really explained beyond merely being called concepts. Most concepts that don't fit either descriptions are type 2 by default and you don't actually need a statement or direct feat which says "changing the concept of circles, changes all circles". And I'm saying this based on what's already accepted in other verses.

No, type 3 includes a multitude of things. You misinterpret an example for what is included in Type 3 as a rule. Personal concepts are one example. Other concepts which don't meet the standards of Type 2 or 1 are included as well.

Type 3 is the "doesn't fit the criteria for the rest"-type. Not type 2. And I'm saying that, as the person that designed them as such.

Arifureta concepts are accepted as type 2 just for being called "fundamental abstract concepts that govern the laws of the universe."

Same answer as I always give when someone pulls that: I don't know the verse. When in doubt, maybe both are wrong. Likely the cases are just different. Profiles don't decide what the rules are. The rules decide how the profiles should be. (Concepts governing laws being stated is also more than we have here...)

2)

^Keep in mind she's using a conceptual attack here.

Naofumi says that she has enough power output, using this conceptual attack, to reduce the laws of the world to nothingness.

Here, Naofumi says that she was erased from the laws of the world. Then says the only reason people could remember her was because of the power she left behind. Which also makes sense that all of her power couldn't completely be erased, given she has some resistance to her own conceptual attacks.

He also states multiple times in this chapter that the law of cause and effect itself doesn't affect her conceptual attacks. To be clear, not just cause and effect, the very law of cause and effect has no bearing on her conceptual attacks and she can erase people from the laws of the universe using them.

Are you arguing that her concepts are Type 2, because she has law erasure abilities? That's law manip.

3) Naofumi says her threads of death are imbued with the concept to bring an end to all possibilities. Which doesn't mean anything on its own, but when paired with everything else is supporting evidence that the concept manipulation is not limited in scope, nor is it limited in efficiency.

Which is a matter of AoE at best.

The threshold simply being concepts that govern reality, so if we consider law to be an aspect of reality to govern like the verse from my example above, this should fit the type 2 standard.

It's never even said to govern laws of reality... all that we know is that Medea can manipulate or erase them. That it's because concepts govern laws isn't said. Naofumi can rewrite the laws of causality and that aspect is, for instance, also said to be similar to some aspect Medea's power.

1) Her conceptual powers work independent of laws of not just this universe but all universes on a 2-A scale.

Her powers do. That's not the same as the concepts doing that.

2) Her conceptual powers can reduce the laws of the world to nothingness, and erase people from the laws of the world.

Her powers can, that it's due to being concepts is not said. She can likely, like Naofumi, also screw with things without using concepts.

3) When she erases people from the laws of the world with her conceptual attacks, people around them lose their memories of them (Only didn't happen to her because of her own lingering power)

That is more so due to the fact that Medea erases people across time, making it so that they never existed to begin with.

DT please tell me you at least agree with my deconstruction and EE additions.

Kinda superfluous, but sure. That's fine.

 

[Greatsage13th]

agreed

 

[YungManzi]

This is why I try to stay away from these kinds of threads with you and the SH WN, DT. It just ends up with you and me heavily disagreeing on a topic and no one else even coming in to ever really give an opinion.

Same answer as I always give when someone pulls that: I don't know the verse. When in doubt, maybe both are wrong. Likely the cases are just different. Profiles don't decide what the rules are. The rules decide how the profiles should be. (Concepts governing laws being stated is also more than we have here...)

I don't agree at all DT. I look at these kinds of cases as sort of supreme court decisions (If you know about the US legal system), our rules don't and can't possibly go into the specifics of every single case ever, so we look at how the laws have been interpreted by the supreme court (that being staff) previously and use the standard set by how they interpreted our laws to evaluate newer cases. Now, the supreme court at some point can overturn their own decisions and retroactively reset or redefine the standard (Like Roe V. Wade), but that's an entire process that needs to happen in it's own superate case brought to the court directly.

1) What exactly is the substantial difference between "governing a universe's laws" and being able to erase them with conceptual manipulation? One is alteration and the other is destruction, both of which fall under conceptual manipulation.

2) Now you say this about SH's conceptual manipulation, but are you going to take this standard with how you are interpreting our rules and actually use that to downgrade verses like Arifureta. Or, are you just blocking this for this one specific case and won't ever talk about it in any other case ever again? This goes back to me saying I think it should and usually is treated as supreme court decisions. Like when R>F difference became a popular way to get tier one everyone and their mothers hopped on it to upgrade characters to tier 1 via that, and because of standards set by previous CRTs.

3) How can you prove that it's because she can erase people across all of time? That's not what's stated, it's literally stated that it's because she can erase someone from the laws of the world. Beyond the actual quote "While she was supposed to be erased from the Laws of the World, the power she left behind made her remain in everyone’s memories." the burden of proof is on you to establish that this statement means something other than what it's actually saying.

Her powers do. That's not the same as the concepts doing that.

4) No, it's literally stated that her conceptual attacks can do this. The only time she's not using or talking about using a conceptual attack in any of the quotes I gave was her attack on motoyasu (Which is why I said that she has deconstruction without conceptual powers)

Her powers can, that it's due to being concepts is not said. She can likely, like Naofumi, also screw with things without using concepts.

We, and they, in these quotes aren't talking about any powers besides her conceptual ones. Even still, just the ability for a concept to interact with the laws of the world at all puts it in type 2 territory, regardless of if it's some some other factor of her being which is allowing her to do that.

 

[YungManzi]

Actually DT. I want to talk on the micro scale, point by point because big posts will never lead us anywhere.

first, why is governing laws of the universe type 2 but erasing laws of the universe type 3?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Actually DT. I want to talk on the micro scale, point by point because big posts will never lead us anywhere.

first, why is governing laws of the universe type 2 but erasing laws of the universe type 3?

It's not an issue of governing vs erasing. It's an issue of "concepts govern laws" vs "character with conceptual attacks can also mix law manip/erasure into their attacks".
The former can be argued to demonstrate a hierarchical relationship between concepts and laws. The latter not so much, as it's not clear that the law manip happens due to concepts being superior to laws.

 

[YungManzi]

It's not an issue of governing vs erasing. It's an issue of "concepts govern laws" vs "character with conceptual attacks can also mix law manip/erasure into their attacks".
The former can be argued to demonstrate a hierarchical relationship between concepts and laws. The latter not so much, as it's not clear that the law manip happens due to concepts being superior to laws.

Ok. How do you know her erasing laws is something she can just do as opposed to a facet of her conceptual manipulation?

Aside from her conceptual attacks, nothing else has been stated to do something like erase the laws of the world, and as far as I'm aware her Law Manipulation on her page rn is just changing laws to an unknown degree.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ok. How do you know her erasing laws is something she can just do as opposed to a facet of her conceptual manipulation?

That's the wrong question. How do you know it isn't?

Aside from her conceptual attacks, nothing else has been stated to do something like erase the laws of the world, and as far as I'm aware her Law Manipulation on her page rn is just changing laws to an unknown degree.

Naofumi can also kinda do law stuff without having concept stuff, to the very limited degree of applying existent laws to those that ignore them, like Medea. (should maybe have law resistance, now that I think about it)

Medea also mixes time manip into her conceptual attacks, so it's not like her mixing additional effects in is unimaginable.

 

[YungManzi]

That's the wrong question. How do you know it isn't?

Because the feat in question has to do with her conceptual attacks, and her other law stuff hasn’t been shown to do stuff like erase laws or erase people from laws.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Saw this and I don't want to interfere because I don't follow the novel, however since Arifureta concept manip was brought here I want to briefly point that the reason of why they have concept manip type 2 isn't just because of govern the laws of the universe and reality, is because how they are stated to manipulate fundamental abstract concepts by a knowledgeable, reliable and direct source, along with other things like equally affect everything under the scope of the respective concept and affect things from other worlds with different power systems as long they fall under their concept, between other things. Also the person who gave the green light to type 2 was someone directly listed as one of the knowledgeable members in conceptual stuff, Elizhaa, who also reads the series and know the contexts of things (she was even the one who showed me one of the scans stating how they manipulate the laws of the universe, which then incentived me to search for more things like that) so the type certainly wasn't give just because why not, so please don't bring more the verse in this unlerated crt of a completely different verse.

 

[YungManzi]

Saw this and I don't want to interfere because I don't follow the novel, however since Arifureta concept manip was brought here I want to briefly point that the reason of why they have concept manip type 2 isn't just because of govern the laws of the universe and reality, is because how they are stated to manipulate fundamental abstract concepts by a knowledgeable, reliable and direct source, along with other things like equally affect everything under the scope of the respective concept and affect things from other worlds with different power systems as long they fall under their concept, between other things. Also the person who gave the green light to type 2 was someone directly listed as one of the knowledgeable members in conceptual stuff, Elizhaa, who also reads the series and know the contexts of things (she was even the one who showed me one of the scans stating how they manipulate the laws of the universe, which then incentived me to search for more things like that) so the type certainly wasn't give just because why not, so please don't bring more the verse in this unlerated crt of a completely different verse.

Being stated to be “fundamental abstract concept ” on its own wouldn’t be enough for type 2. But, won’t argue that here cause that’s a derail.

I’m not saying Arifureta or anyone else shouldn’t have Type 2, I’m using Arifureta here to prove a point of how we apply the conceptual manipulation page, because the law stuff is so similar; but there are other examples I could use if it makes you uncomfortable.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Being stated to be “fundamental abstract concept ” on its own wouldn’t be enough for type 2. But, won’t argue that here cause that’s a derail.

I’m not saying Arifureta or anyone else shouldn’t have Type 2, I’m using Arifureta here to prove a point of how we apply the conceptual manipulation page, because the law stuff is so similar; but there are other examples I could use if it makes you uncomfortable.

Correct, which is is why it have more pieces of evidence supporting type 2 besides that, but will not derail more the thread.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Because the feat in question has to do with her conceptual attacks, and her other law stuff hasn’t been shown to do stuff like erase laws or erase people from laws.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Abstractions

What do you think? Is that correlation enough for you to believe that Concepts govern Laws (and give Type 2) or do you think it's just Type 3?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not an expert on Conceptual manipulation, but I suppose type 3 makes more sense overall.

 

[YungManzi]

2) Her conceptual powers can reduce the laws of the world to nothingness and erase people from the laws of the world.

3) When she erases people from the laws of the world with her conceptual attacks, people around them lose their memories of them

Added context surrounding the feats in question.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I'm not an expert on Conceptual manipulation, but I suppose type 3 makes more sense overall.

I see. Thanks for the eval.

You make a good point, though.
@Elizhaa @Everything12
You guys are listed as knowledgeable on concepts. Any opinion on this?

 

[Reiner04]

Added context surrounding the feats in question.

Are you sure it's 2 cases?

1. Destroying laws of the world.
2. Destroying ppls from the chains/laws that binds them to this world.

Not just 2nd or 1st?

 

[Reiner04]

These like cases are tricky one, because the way our standards describes "concepts" and based "conceptual manipulation" on them are uncommon and there are verses who goes with their own versions (made up) concepts, such as this one (destroying a guy from all of realities and destroying laws of the world to nothingness), it's not really destroying any abstract concept to kill that person because if will, then all of living beings will be dead. So it's specific to single person but bigger in range and is not exactly what types 2 conceptual manipulation is. But destroying the laws of the world via conceptual attack does seems like affecting reality overall via conceptual manipulation (what is it, destroying concept of laws (?)) not sure if it should be in law manipulation via this particular attack affecting laws or in the conceptual manipulation type 2 via destroying concept of laws (?).

 

[YungManzi]

Are you sure it's 2 cases?

1. Destroying laws of the world.
2. Destroying ppls from the chains/laws that binds them to this world.

Not just 2nd or 1st?

Well, we have two different statements of those things.

But yeah this concept manipulation is pretty out of the ordinary in general kek.

 

[DontTalkDT]

These like cases are tricky one, because the way our standards describes "concepts" and based "conceptual manipulation" on them are uncommon and there are verses who goes with their own versions (made up) concepts, such as this one (destroying a guy from all of realities and destroying laws of the world to nothingness), it's not really destroying any abstract concept to kill that person because if will, then all of living beings will be dead. So it's specific to single person but bigger in range and is not exactly what types 2 conceptual manipulation is. But destroying the laws of the world via conceptual attack does seems like affecting reality overall via conceptual manipulation (what is it, destroying concept of laws (?)) not sure if it should be in law manipulation via this particular attack affecting laws or in the conceptual manipulation type 2 via destroying concept of laws (?).

To be clear: Medea isn't destroying concepts at all. What her concept manip does is to forcefully apply a concept to something.
Like, she just applies to concept of death to you, so now you're dead. Or in our terminology: She forces you to participate in the death concept, which means you gain all the "dead" properties i.e. you just die.

 

[Reiner04]

To be clear: Medea isn't destroying concepts at all. What her concept manip does is to forcefully apply a concept to something.
Like, she just applies to concept of death to you, so now you're dead. Or in our terminology: She forces you to participate in the death concept

Uh, yeah. Materialisation of death like scans does say that directly but i am still unsure how to take destroying laws of the world via conceptual attack(?), prolly can just give it law manipulation because I do not think she is really doing it via destroying concept of laws (?), But one thing I'll point out that our many profiles hasn't applied conceptual manipulation strictly, keeping it aside, I think type 3 as per standards are right. Not enough information here for type 2.

you just die

 

[YungManzi]

To be clear: Medea isn't destroying concepts at all. What her concept manip does is to forcefully apply a concept to something.
Like, she just applies to concept of death to you, so now you're dead. Or in our terminology: She forces you to participate in the death concept, which means you gain all the "dead" properties i.e. you just die.

That’s, like, your opinion man.

 

[Reiner04]

That’s, like, your opinion man.

Not really, destroying concept of death hasn't been implied or stated because the effects will rather be opposite but rather that she materialise the concept of death or forces the concept on you and materialise it by "you being dead throughout", so the interpretation is pretty valid.

 

[Reiner04]

Also if these characters don't have Death manipulation, I don't think it should take another crt for it to be added.

 

[YungManzi]

Not really, destroying concept of death hasn't been implied or stated because the effects will rather be opposite but rather that she materialise the concept of death or forces the concept on you and materialise it by "you being dead throughout", so the interpretation is pretty valid.

I agree that’s how it works, I’m talking about the “She doesn’t destroy concepts” part, because I’m of the opinion that by materializing the concept of death she can destroy things conceptually. Hence, people and laws.

 

[Reiner04]

materializing the concept of death she can destroy things conceptually.

What exactly you mean by this... Are you arguing that concept of living for that person specifically has cease to exist... It would and can be the case as she applies or materialise concept of death on them and they just drop dead but for laws, my opinion is still same, I don't think she is destroying any concept from the explanation of how it works and more than just think when it comes to destroying laws (possibly a kind of attack with many effects(?) and yes, it's my opinion because for otherwise I don't think there is enough evidence to interpret in "destroying concept of laws" direction)... it can give her law manipulation.

 

[YungManzi]

If you can use a conceptual death attack which can erase so thoroughly that people can’t remember the person you killed, that sounds like concept erasure.

DT would say it’s because of her time travel but it’s stated to be because it’s a conceptual attack.

 

[Everything12]

I guess Type 3 makes the most sense with what has been presented here.

 

[Reiner04]

2-A level across worlds with completely different laws, realities, and time-axis's,

If you can use a conceptual death attack which can erase so thoroughly that people can’t remember the person you killed, that sounds like concept erasure.

DT would say it’s because of her time travel but it’s stated to be because it’s a conceptual attack.

I don't really want any hax or abilities or any kind of upgrade to miss if there is possibility but, you do realize you have said it. The very point that she drop you dead on all of spacetime..... Is actually a right point for this.

 

[YungManzi]

I don't really want any hax or abilities or any kind of upgrade to miss if there is possibility but, you do realize you have said it. The very point that she drop you dead on all of spacetime..... Is actually a right point for this.

it’s not stated that people don’t remember stuff because of that, but ok.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I guess Type 3 makes the most sense with what has been presented here.

I see. Thanks for the eval.

DT would say it’s because of her time travel but it’s stated to be because it’s a conceptual attack.

I don't see where it's stated to be because of concepts at all.
The "While she was supposed to be erased from the Laws of the World, the power she left behind made her remain in everyone’s memories." only states that the power she left behind makes people remember. It doesn't state in any capacity that it's because of conceptual effects.

it’s not stated that people don’t remember stuff because of that, but ok.

The opposite isn't stated either and it makes lots of sense that people that never existed wouldn't be remembered.

In fact, in context it's most likely that it is in fact due to them never existing. Look at the following lines:

While she was supposed to be erased from the Laws of the World, the power she left behind made her remain in everyone’s memories.

The Lynchpin had worked from the start, and most of it still remained.

Or else perhaps my own existence would vanish.

Along with the worlds’ legend of the four heroes.

Why does Naofumi think he and the legends of the four heroes would disappear? Because the whole heroes thing would have never happened if Medea never existed.

 

[YungManzi]

She was also fighting people with acausality type 1 kek.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Are you really thinking the guy that can deflect her conceptual attacks would have forgotten her due to the acausal powers? Like, c'mon, either it makes no sense regardless of interpretation or the gods were not included in the everyone would forget thing.

And (as I edited into my last comment) what is said heavily implies that it's due to causality stuff.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Anyway, Type 3 seems to be what we are going for by what other staff thinks as well.

Next we can have a debate on why vsbattles runs like a European Law system not like a precedent-based US law system lol