Shield Hero CRT 2022 (Part 1) General Additions

[YungManzi]

New ability revisions for our favorite heroes.

Volume 17-20:

General additions to heroes:

Spoiler: General Ability Additions

1) Holy Weapon users should have limited Law Manipulation as they can strip anyone who isn't fulfilling their duty as a vassal weapon holder the right to hold their weapon via outranking them, removing their "authority" over the weapon in question. Naofumi showed that even if one holds a holy weapon (Takt), they would still be outranked and stripped of their holy weapon by a "true" holy weapon user. This is, of course, limited to weapons from the world they were summoned to.

2) Naofumi confirms that life force can be used to touch spiritual bodies. We accept characters having NPI via magic but this proves they have it via HMS as well.

3) All heroes have resistance to information analysis.

4) Everyone in Naofumi's camp should have empowerment (Their statistics are increased in correspondence with their trust in Naofumi/The Shield Hero). According to Naofumi, this power-up method had been in effect without him even realizing it. Raising his comrade's statistics passively and making them overall better fighters.

5) Acausality (Type 1): Holy weapon holders themselves are unaffected by changes made to the past, and possibly other time-related things (Like aging); as this may relate to them having type 1 immortality; Naofumi states "It was definitely a thing that time in this world didn't really affect me."

6) Everyone from Volume 19 and on should fully scale to at the very least baseline city level (potentially 13.5 Megatons) in base. As there is only a 1.4x difference between where they scale in Small city level and baseline, and vassal weapon holders currently have all 12 power-up methods to only 7 at their Low 7-B+ rating, with the difference between even two extra power-up methods creating a stomp. Additionally, Naofumi thought that the gap between 8 and 10 power-up methods was so large that only powerful support magic (Ei. Liberation Class which is a 3x boost to all stats) would be capable of closing that gap with there being no way of winning otherwise.
So, either baseline city level or 13.5 megatons for characters who either are or scale to fully upgraded weapon holders , to be discussed.

^^By the end of the arc they acquired all power-up methods.

7) New keys for S'yne, Raphtalia, Naofumi, Glass, L'Arc, Kizuna, Itsuki, Rishia, and likely Ren and Motoyasu that fully scale to whatever value is accepted above for 7-B, or if it's not accepted at all, At least Low 7-B+. They get new abilities too, but I'm splitting that from this CRT.

TLDR;

1) Limited Law Manipulation (Holy Weapon Heroes can strip others of their assigned weapon via outranking them and removing their authority. However, this ability is limited in scope to Holy/Vassal weapons)

2) Non-Physical Interaction (Hengen Muso style/life-force abilities are effective against intangible beings)

3) Resistance to Information Analysis

4) Empowerment (Naofumi and his allies' statistics are increased in correspondence with their trust in him)

5) Acausality (Type 1; Holy Weapon Heroes are unaffected by changes to the past)

6) 7-B rating for post Vanguard of the waves arc keys. (13.5 or 6.5 Megatons)

 

[YungManzi]

bump

 

[Popted2]

agree with the op

 

[YungManzi]

bump

 

[YungManzi]

Bump

 

[YungManzi]

bump

 

[DontTalkDT]

Oh, so the LN finally reached Tact, huh.
1) Ok, but why is that effect law manipulation?
5) Can you explain a bit more context? The 'time doesn't affect me' alone in the quote is pretty vague and he seems uncertain about the effects of changing the future. Why the heck is he in the past? Thought that was spear heroes thing.
Rest is ok.

 

[YungManzi]

Oh, so the LN finally reached Tact, huh.
1) Ok, but why is that effect law manipulation?
5) Can you explain a bit more context? The 'time doesn't affect me' alone in the quote is pretty vague and he seems uncertain about the effects of changing the future. Why the heck is he in the past? Thought that was spear heroes thing.
Rest is ok.

This is actually way past Tact. Tact arc ends in volume 16, this is 17-20.

1) Because Holy weapon holders strip vassal weapon holders of their weapons by "outranking" them and "removing their authority" over the weapon in question. Given those statements it's closer to Authority Manipulation which in itself is pretty much Law Manipulation.

5) Naofumi's entire village was teleported to the past before the fusion of the sword/spear & bow/shield worlds occurred, in the past there's a war between two nations occurring and his village happens to be in those two nation's battle ground. Here he is pondering getting involved in order to stop his village from being destroyed. He weighs the potential pros and cons.

Whether he abandons the village (Where the people of the past will be able to recover futuristic technology, innovations, and research) or defends the village using military force; both options will surely change the future, Naofumi notes this.
The interesting point is that in the middle of this monologue he says "It was definitely a thing that time in this world didn't really affect me, since I had been summoned here from another world to this world's Melromarc in the future"

Edit: Also, this is kinda reminiscent of Naofumi's Theory that holy weapon users don't age. Though tbf that was a pure guess on his part; because of Kizuna spending years in Glass's world yet still looking like a little girl.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

This is mostly fine.

As for the time stuff, Immortality type 1 seems fine based on the other stuff about Kizuna, not too sure about acausality, maybe a possibly rating? If these events really do change the future, and he isn't gonna be affected, all that would be needed is to wait and see in the next volumes whether he gets affected or not.

 

[YungManzi]

This is mostly fine.

As for the time stuff, Immortality type 1 seems fine based on the other stuff about Kizuna, not too sure about acausality, maybe a possibly rating? If these events really do change the future, and he isn't gonna be affected, all that would be needed is to wait and see in the next volumes whether he gets affected or not.

This is true.

 

[YungManzi]

Bump

I wholeheartedly agree with CP that it's better to wait on them returning to the present and seeing what happens. At this stage Naofumi is still kinda guessing what's happening and isn't an expert on time travel, heck, he doesn't even know how they time traveled

 

[DontTalkDT]

This is actually way past Tact. Tact arc ends in volume 16, this is 17-20.

1) Because Holy weapon holders strip vassal weapon holders of their weapons by "outranking" them and "removing their authority" over the weapon in question. Given those statements it's closer to Authority Manipulation which in itself is pretty much Law Manipulation.

Gotta disagree here. Law Manip is by our standards the ability to manipulate laws "that are the way in which a reality may function". I don't think mere authority over a weapon qualifies for this. IMO this is more in line with Weapon Control and the weapons in themselves having the ability to reject a wielder.

5) Naofumi's entire village was teleported to the past before the fusion of the sword/spear & bow/shield worlds occurred, in the past there's a war between two nations occurring and his village happens to be in those two nation's battle ground. Here he is pondering getting involved in order to stop his village from being destroyed. He weighs the potential pros and cons.

Whether he abandons the village (Where the people of the past will be able to recover futuristic technology, innovations, and research) or defends the village using military force; both options will surely change the future, Naofumi notes this.
The interesting point is that in the middle of this monologue he says "It was definitely a thing that time in this world didn't really affect me, since I had been summoned here from another world to this world's Melromarc in the future"

Edit: Also, this is kinda reminiscent of Naofumi's Theory that holy weapon users don't age. Though tbf that was a pure guess on his part; because of Kizuna spending years in Glass's world yet still looking like a little girl.

It's kinda questionable whether not aging (i.e. perpetual youth) actually translates to infinite lifespan.

For the acausality... yeah, maybe wait and see. I believe The Reprise of the Spear Hero is technically canon to the LN version (?) and that plays in a parallel universe that mirrors the past. In other words, we have precedent of Shield Hero solving time paradoxes via multiverse theory, which evades the need for acausality.

 

[YungManzi]

Gotta disagree here. Law Manip is by our standards the ability to manipulate laws "that are the way in which a reality may function". I don't think mere authority over a weapon qualifies for this. IMO this is more in line with Weapon Control and the weapons in themselves having the ability to reject a wielder.

One problem with you saying that is that Holy/Vassal Weapons in Shield Hero are not normal weapons, they literally function as tools to protect and destroy universes.

It's, quite literally, not possible in-verse to wield one of those weapons for normal people (Unless you have a power that lets you do that or some sci-fi tech that lets you do that), you can't just use telekinesis or summoning to be capable of wielding the weapon, let alone taking it back from someone.

There were innumerable people trying to get Raphtalia's Katana before she ever did and none of them could, because using even a vassal weapon is not as simple as picking it up (And to use Holy weapons, it is legit required that you be summoned by the weapon itself)


According to the weapon control page, it's just telekinesis of weapons. Which is not at all what's going on in-context.

• Telekinetically control weapons or weapon-like objects.
• Use weapons as platforms in order to levitate or fly.
• Freely summon weapons to one's side.
• Change the trajectory of weapons or weapon-like objects in mid-air.
• Alter the shape or make-up of a weapon.

The one thing that may apply here is the "Freely summon Weapons to one's side." But as explained above, you can't just use a legendary weapon because you summoned it or used telekinesis on it. So Weapon control is not applicable here, and since the weapons themselves often have rules/abilities that govern the state of the world; I think it's fair to say "removing one's authority over their weapon via outranking them" is enough justification for limited law manipulation.

For the acausality... yeah, maybe wait and see. I believe The Reprise of the Spear Hero is technically canon to the LN version (?) and that plays in a parallel universe that mirrors the past. In other words, we have precedent of Shield Hero solving time paradoxes via multiverse theory, which evades the need for acausality.

Is this you agreeing that SH has at least 2x infinite multiverse. If there are infinite worlds and infinite worlds have parallel timelines.

Also, been sick with the flu since Tuesday, but now I'm feeling good enough to post again.

 

[DontTalkDT]

One problem with you saying that is that Holy/Vassal Weapons in Shield Hero are not normal weapons, they literally function as tools to protect and destroy universes.

It's, quite literally, not possible in-verse to wield one of those weapons for normal people (Unless you have a power that lets you do that or some sci-fi tech that lets you do that), you can't just use telekinesis or summoning to be capable of wielding the weapon, let alone taking it back from someone.

There were innumerable people trying to get Raphtalia's Katana before she ever did and none of them could, because using even a vassal weapon is not as simple as picking it up (And to use Holy weapons, it is legit required that you be summoned by the weapon itself)


According to the weapon control page, it's just telekinesis of weapons. Which is not at all what's going on in-context.


The one thing that may apply here is the "Freely summon Weapons to one's side." But as explained above, you can't just use a legendary weapon because you summoned it or used telekinesis on it. So Weapon control is not applicable here, and since the weapons themselves often have rules/abilities that govern the state of the world; I think it's fair to say "removing one's authority over their weapon via outranking them" is enough justification for limited law manipulation.

Don't see how them protecting the universe in any way proves anything law related. The weapons resist the fusion of the world. Resisting something that isn't law manip can hardly be considered law manip.

Yeah, and a wand in Harry Potter can't be wielded by anyone that doesn't have magic. And a gun with a DNA lock, can't be wielded by someone without that DNA. This is a weapon having a security function, at best, and a compatibility issue at worst. Heck, it might be the spirits of the weapons just deciding against cooperating.

You confuse the list of possible uses with a list of all possible effects. The definition of weapon control is what is at the top: "Weapon Control is an ability that allows its user to control weapons or weapon-like objects in order to achieve a variety of effects. The most common usage of this ability comes in the forms of telekinetically controlling or summoning weapons, though other applications are possible. "
So yeah, weapon control does cover abilities related to controlling weapons.

Is this you agreeing that SH has at least 2x infinite multiverse. If there are infinite worlds and infinite worlds have parallel timelines.

Also, been sick with the flu since Tuesday, but now I'm feeling good enough to post again.

Jokes on you, WN proves parallel timelines are parts of the infinite worlds.

 

[YungManzi]

Don't see how them protecting the universe in any way proves anything law related. The weapons resist the fusion of the world. Resisting something that isn't law manip can hardly be considered law manip.

There are two larger points here;
One was that these aren't normal weapons you can just control with telekinesis or summoning. Which is the only example/thing listed on the Weapon Control page, there's nothing else there that could cleary point to a power like what we see in shield hero. Your pointing out of the phrase "other applications are possible." is, quite frankly, insufficient in explanation, reasoning, not giving credit to the context of the power in the scans.
Heroes in general literally all have weapon control by virtue of their powers, so you would still have to say Holy Weapon Heroes have above baseline Weapon control via this power.

The other was that these weapons literally govern the world that they're within; so rules of the weapons, like heroes not being able to use unassigned weapons, only select people being chosen to be heroes, heroes not gaining xp when nearby one another, ect. are rules of the world itself. Not dissimilar from the very concept of status magic and levels.

Which would indeed make it law manipulation.
If you don't agree that manipulating the leveling system itself would be considered law manipulation, we just don't have the same interpretation of the power and would need to have a separate thread for it to be judged properly.


So DT you don't have an issue with anything besides this and Acuasality, right? I had never even seen Weapon Control as a power before you linked it here tbh, that should really be something all heroes have.

 

[Random-Helper323]

It seems as if the ability to revoke weapons from vassals isn't combat applicable anyway, since if it only applies to the weapons from the world they were summoned to, then it shouldn't apply to any other verse's weapons. It shouldn't be possible for Naofumi to take Excalibur from King Arthur and revoke his right to it, for example. That indicates that it's a rule only for the vassal weapons from their own world. And even that seems to be limited, with only ones who have abandoned their duty or gained the weapon dishonestly being affected, which indicates the weapons have a say in the matter as well, or some higher law.

Edit: I'm also not sure that vaguely saying time doesn't effect him proves acausality, but further context could help. The rest seems fine.

 

[YungManzi]

It seems as if the ability to revoke weapons from vassals isn't combat applicable anyway, since if it only applies to the weapons from the world they were summoned to, then it shouldn't apply to any other verse's weapons. It shouldn't be possible for Naofumi to take Excalibur from King Arthur and revoke his right to it, for example. That indicates that it's a rule only for the vassal weapons from their own world. And even that seems to be limited, with only ones who have abandoned their duty or gained the weapon dishonestly being affected, which indicates the weapons have a say in the matter as well, or some higher law.

Yeah, only applies to Vassal weapons from the same world as their holy weapon.

 

[Random-Helper323]

It sounds like it might be possible only due to a connection between the weapons, which means it might not be a power so much as control over the vassal weapons, like limited admin privileges. Even if it is a power, it's not going to be combat applicable except for in very specific circumstances.

 

[YungManzi]

bump

So things that are accepted by staff as of now:

Limited Law Manipulation (For CP, Weapon Control for DT)

Non-Physical Interaction (Hengen Muso style/life-force abilities are effective against intangible beings)

Resistance to Information Analysis

Empowerment (Naofumi and his allies' statistics are increased in correspondence with their trust in him)

7-B rating for post Vanguard of the waves arc keys. (13.5 or 6.5 Megatons)

 

[Darksun]

Something that's been bothering me for awhile about the SH wiki page is Motoyasu's profile, don't you guys thing that both his LN and WN versions should get a reprise key?

 

[Random-Helper323]

Something that's been bothering me for awhile about the SH wiki page is Motoyasu's profile, don't you guys thing that both his LN and WN versions should get a reprise key?

And "is a total moron, might have shattered testicals" listed in his weakness or intelligence section?

Seriously though, if the key exists it should be there. Everyone is stronger later on, even the "Three Cardinal Stooges".

 

[YungManzi]

I haven't read the reprise LN (Also there's only a few english released volumes of it) so... if you want a key for that then maybe.

I personally believe it's better to have a separate profile altogether though, because honestly I don't think reprise and main continuity are canon to each other, and therefore not comparable.

It also kinda messes up the continuity of the profiles creating a key like that, because we really don't know what happens in the future (duh), and we'd presume Motoyasu to have abilities and stats from the future (if we want to say that the continuities are comparable, and reprise takes place at some point after most of shield hero)

AKA. Making a key for that Motoyasu without having his previous abilities/statistics in order would literally be making a half-assed key.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I haven't read the reprise LN (Also there's only a few english released volumes of it) so... if you want a key for that then maybe.

I personally believe it's better to have a separate profile altogether though, because honestly I don't think reprise and main continuity are canon to each other, and therefore not comparable.

It also kinda messes up the continuity of the profiles creating a key like that, because we really don't know what happens in the future (duh), and we'd presume Motoyasu to have abilities and stats from the future (if we want to say that the continuities are comparable, and reprise takes place at some point after most of shield hero)

AKA. Making a key for that Motoyasu without having his previous abilities/statistics in order would literally be making a half-assed key.

I'm pretty sure the different canons can still be listed as keys, rather than making a new profile. They do that for DBZ and HST because they have more keys than a locksmith even after you seperate them into multiple profiles.

Edit: then again, light novel and web novel are already seperate profiles last I checked, so maybe.

 

[YungManzi]

They do that for DBZ and HST because they have more keys than a locksmith even after you seperate them into multiple profiles.

That's actually... quite the opposite. For DB at least. I'm pretty sure it's that way for the other shounen too. But for example; GT and toei timelines have their own separate profiles.

 

[Random-Helper323]

That's actually... quite the opposite. For DB at least. I'm pretty sure it's that way for the other shounen too. But for example; GT and toei timelines have their own separate profiles.

And Kid Goku being seperate from DBZ Goku, and DBS being divided by versions, in addition to Toei and GT versions and Xeno. And most of those pages have lots of keys as well. Still, HST is the one that does it the most, and without obviously parallel canons to cause it. I shudder to think how many keys Luffy will have when the series finally ends, assuming it ever does.

Anyway, I'm not familiar enough with Reprise to say much there. If it's a different enough character to warrant a seperate page, then that makes sense, but then we have the question of whether a character like Motoyasu warrants two pages. I know two seperate pages for the same character can be confusing for casual readers.

 

[Darksun]

I'm pretty sure the different canons can still be listed as keys, rather than making a new profile. They do that for DBZ and HST because they have more keys than a locksmith even after you seperate them into multiple profiles.

Edit: then again, light novel and web novel are already seperate profiles last I checked, so maybe.

LN reprise is canon to the LN while WN reprise is canon to the WN

 

[Random-Helper323]

LN reprise is canon to the LN while WN reprise is canon to the WN

If that's the case then new keys is probably more efficient here. Unless they're different enough to be seen as entirely different characters.

 

[Darksun]

If that's the case then new keys is probably more efficient here. Unless they're different enough to be seen as entirely different characters.

Nah they are more or less the same but reprise has better feats for him, for example in the reprise WN Motoyasu Literally one-shotted the spirit tortoise with no effort and then in another loop he one-shotted 2 guardian beasts as well

 

[Random-Helper323]

Nah they are more or less the same but reprise has better feats for him, for example in the reprise WN Motoyasu Literally one-shotted the spirit tortoise with no effort and then in another loop he one-shotted 2 guardian beasts as well

Sounds like seperate keys is best, perhaps with a note about canonicity in the page.

 

[YungManzi]

Nah they are more or less the same but reprise has better feats for him, for example in the reprise WN Motoyasu Literally one-shotted the spirit tortoise with no effort and then in another loop he one-shotted 2 guardian beasts as well

Well, just based on scaling. Faubrey War Arc Motoyasu would one-shot the spirit tortoise. And the key that's being proposed in this thread is >>>FWA

Also, I completely disagree with keys or profiles for that Motoyasu at this point. Unless we concede that he in no way scales to his main counterpart (With abilities, speed, or strength)

 

[YungManzi]

bump

 

[YungManzi]

Non-Physical Interaction (Hengen Muso style/life-force abilities are effective against intangible beings)

Resistance to Information Analysis

Empowerment (Naofumi and his allies' statistics are increased in correspondence with their trust in him)

7-B rating for post Vanguard of the waves arc keys. (13.5 Megatons)

These are the accepted changes, I'll add them after the next crt (Abilities)

 

[Bossbrosish]

I know this is an old thread from a year ago, but I'm curious to know when these changes will be applied since the ability crt hasn't been made yet to my knowledge.

 

[YungManzi]

I know this is an old thread from a year ago, but I'm curious to know when these changes will be applied since the ability crt hasn't been made yet to my knowledge.

As I'm currently working on another verse, it will likely take some time. The key's and powers can be added, but I just opted not to until we have all of the powers they get from this arc.

 

[YungManzi]

I know this is an old thread from a year ago, but I'm curious to know when these changes will be applied since the ability crt hasn't been made yet to my knowledge.

Here's what I have so far though