Shedinja vs ThunderMcQueen

[DragonEmperor23]

I think that's the reason why they would be considered ghost type in this case. Then HtH would work on Shedninja.

 

[GyroNutz]

If so then either Shedinja one-shots TMQ forcing an inconclusive or TMQ hits himself hard, doesn't die instantly but OHKs Shedinja due to bypassing wonder guard

Question: If Shedinja was in another world (via phantom force) then Highway to Hell couldn't affect him here right? Not that he'd do this without prior knowledge

 

[DragonEmperor23]

The range for HtH is based on desire and not actual distance so I think it would still work.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The range for HtH is based on desire and not actual distance so I think it would still work.

No. That is simply an NLF. It cannot affect anything in another reality.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

If so then either Shedinja one-shots TMQ forcing an inconclusive or TMQ hits himself hard, doesn't die instantly but OHKs Shedinja due to bypassing wonder guar

No, HtH only gives the same amount of damage the user got.

Shedninja only dies due to being that weak Durability wise-

 

[GyroNutz]

Shedinja dies from any amount of damage than can affect him.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Shedinja dies from any amount of damage than can affect him.

Because it can one-shot him. HtH doesn't give deadly harm without thunder himself dying

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I mean I was just stating what's said on the profile. I think what Gyro is saying is that any damage that Shed takes is likely to kill him.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Stands are able to explicitly interact with the incorporeal and the intangible . (Reimi should also be an intangible seeing as how she's a literal ghost.)

Explain to me why HtH doesn't work on Shedinja?

 

[ProfessorLord]

And any attack that can actually harm Shedinja ends up killing it.

If HtH transfers any sort of damage whatsoever, it is considered an "attack" upon the enemy.

Therefore TMQ trying to stab himself to death or whatever will instantly kill Shedinja first before he soon succumbs to whatever suicide attempt he is trying.

I believe TMQ wins in this rare instance.

 

[GyroNutz]

Stands are able to explicitly interact with the incorporeal and the intangible . (Reimi should also be an intangible seeing as how she's a literal ghost.)
Explain to me why HtH doesn't work on Shedinja?

Being able to interact with non-corporeal/intangible beings isn't enough to harm Shedinja. You also have to be hitting it with an attack that doesn't get completely no-selled by Wonder Guard. If HtH and stands were treated as Psychic or Fighting or Normal type then these wouldn't cut it. If HtH and stands were treated as ghost type then yes, Shedinja can be harmed.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

pretty sure it was discussed and agreed that types cannot be really iplied in non-pokemon verses like that due to i n-verse inconsistency.


And yes, it makes sed nearly impossible to use

 

[ProfessorLord]

Being able to interact with non-corporeal/intangible beings isn't enough to harm Shedinja. You also have to be hitting it with an attack that doesn't get completely no-selled by Wonder Guard. If HtH and stands were treated as Psychic or Fighting or Normal type then these wouldn't cut it. If HtH and stands were treated as ghost type then yes, Shedinja can be harmed.

Factually incorrect though. Wonder Guard is immune to only attacks, it is not immune to abilities or certain status inducing attacks such as tail whip, poison powder, damage from burn, weather effects, entry hazards, etc. There is a lot that Wonder Guard does not protect.

HtH would most definitely be considered an ability not an attack, and therefore it would bypass Shedinja with little to no difficulty.

 

[GyroNutz]

Wonder Guard makes Shedinja immune to damage reflection + damage sharing that isn't explicitly a type that it is weak to, you can't just label it as an ability to ignore this

 

[ProfessorLord]

Furthermore it does not prevent damage from confusion aka damage inflicted to the user by themselves. It also does not prevent damage from the move Pain Split, which shares and inflicts damage upon the user and the opponent.

This is pretty open and shut that Wonder Guard does not affect HtH.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Wonder Guard makes Shedinja immune to damage reflection + damage sharing that isn't explicitly a type that it is weak to, you can't just label it as an ability to ignore this

No it doesn't, Pain Split is a status move that is explicitly able to bypass Wonder Guard. It forcefully inflicts damage onto the opponent or user, depending on which has more health and slightly raises the others. It functions very similar to HtH, and it is able to bypass Wonder Guard despite being a normal type move.

(To illustrate, Pain Split shares a shockingly similar resemblance to how HtH functions.)

I don't see it saying it makes him immune to damage reflection that's just wank and NLF.

 

[GyroNutz]

How is it wank and NLF if it's in the games itself?

 

[GyroNutz]

Also naming moves that don't work in a similar way to HtH is a strawman

 

[ProfessorLord]

Because the games don't account for other more potent types of damage reflection. What if a 1-A were to reflect damage onto Shedinja? Are you really telling me he would still be immune? Therefore it is NLF and wank.

It's not just named similarly, it functions similarly and looks similar as well. Please look at my post and educate yourself, I updated it.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Also naming moves that don't work in a similar way to HtH is a strawma

No, it is not. Its a flase equivalency, there is a rather big difference.

 

[GyroNutz]

No, it's a strawman.

"HtH can't affect Shedinja as other damage reflecting moves don't affect Shedinja"

"That's not true as pain split works (even though it cant harm) on Shedinja! You can't say that damage reflecting moves dont affect Shedinja as 1-A moves haven't been shown to be reflected! Nerr!"

It's literally a parallel to the example given in the Fallacy page, check it out.

 

[GyroNutz]

Because the games don't account for other more potent types of damage reflection. What if a 1-A were to reflect damage onto Shedinja? Are you really telling me he would still be immune? Therefore it is NLF and wank.
It's not just named similarly, it functions similarly and looks similar as well. Please look at my post and educate yourself, I updated it.

Your whole argument breaks down when you realise that pain split isn't damage reflection. HtH is 'whatever happens to me happens to you as well'. Pain split is 'lets equalize our health'.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Wonder Guard does not prevent any ability from activating/harming Shedinja in the game.

Shedinja can attack those with poison touch and become poisoned, despite supposedly being completely immune to poison. This is a FACT. Shedinja can be harmed by almost every status attack, such as tail whip, poison powder etc, despite supposedly being completely immune.

Wonder Guard does not grant him total immunity to the things he has supposedly been immune to.

HtH is an ability, not an attack. He's not punching Shedinja, it's just an explicit consequence of reality that is affecting Shedinja. The move Pain Split can be used on Shedinja (it still halves his health, it just gets rounded back up due to in-game mechanics. animation still plays and everything.) and therefore there is no reason why another damage reflection ability cannot be used on Shedinja.

Stop this silly argument.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

No, it's a strawman.
"HtH can't affect Shedinja as other damage reflecting moves don't affect Shedinja"

"That's not true as pain split works (even though it cant harm) on Shedinja! You can't say that damage reflecting moves dont affect Shedinja as 1-A moves haven't been shown to be reflected! Nerr!"

It's literally a parallel to the example given in the Fallacy page, check it out.

This is when one person corrupts an opponent's argument into something different, a "straw man" that they set up just to knock it down.

This is not what he's doing. He isn't claiming that HtH isn't changing your argument. He is simply comparing HtH to something that it is not similiar with, I.E. false equivalency. Saying that X doesn't work because Y didn't is litiral false equivalency (and possibly ABC logic, tough that doesn't aply here)

 

[ProfessorLord]

Stop arguing about fallacies, what I said was not a false equivalency anyways. (Though if it was, it would be a false equivalency not a strawman.)

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Stop arguing about fallacies, what I said was not a false equivalency anyways. (Though if it was, it would be a false equivalency not a strawman.)

I was not talking about you. I was talking about equating HtH to abilities that are not explicitly damage reflection.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

And why was my vote counted? I said it was a stomp, wich is not a vote, and my reason for beleiving that was debunked

 

[ProfessorLord]

Yes I understand but this dicussion is being shifted off-topic. It's best if we just continue with the debate rather than get too focused on "you said the wrong falacy omegalul"

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Speed equal, so shed attacks him, on.shots and dies like always.

 

[ProfessorLord]

I believe it is a decisive victory, not a stomp. Shedinja still has very great soul manipulation via his backside, but it's extremely OOC for a Shedinja to turn around and force the opponent to look

Whenever a normal person has their 'soul' taken out, it's an ethereal version of themselves. Whenever a stand user has their soul taken out, it's their stand in place. Looking into Shedinja's back would literally remove TMQ of his stand.

If this was bloodlusted I believe Shedinja wins.

 

[GyroNutz]

Whatever, none of this matters. Pain split isn't damage reflection and HtH isn't an ability. Wonder Guard never was meant to be immune to status effects but is meant to be immune to damage reflection.

However stands are likely ghost type so they wouldn't care anyway. So Shedinja probably one shots and gets one shot, forcing an inconclusive

 

[ProfessorLord]

Wonder Guard isn't just weak to status effects, it's also weak to status inducing moves... which HtH literally fits the definition for. And yes, stands are most likely ghost type if anything.

Shedinja wouldn't be throwing out the first attack though. Though speed is equalized, it's much faster to bite down on your own tongue rather than to quickly charge a shadow ball and throw it out.

However once TMQ bites down on his own tongue, unbenknowst to him Shedinja recieves damage... and instantly dies from it.

This is a win for TMQ

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I highly doubt that he would react to being in central park with a flying ghost by biting on his tounge witout even reacting. And once again, I have to question how HtH would work here. Shed doesn't have a tounge, or organs, or anything but a soul and exsoskeleton

 

[ProfessorLord]

He has seen MFTL stands and other nonsense and that didn't impede his adventure for self-harm. I highly doubt he would care, he'd probably think it was god or something and say "you tryna help me out now? well **** you" and proceed to bite his tongue and bash his head off the floor or something.

I believe it would be reflected on the mouth of Shedinja if he were to bite his tongue, or whatever corresponding spot makes the most sense. It's really a nitpick though, stands are a universal concept not exempt from animals such as orangutangs and rats. I highly doubt it would be exempt from Shedinja.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

shed doesn't have a mounth. Its a litiral exosceleton.

Their speed is not important, and I don't think he ever bit his tounge despite other people being around to die with him. He would certainly look around to see what ways there areto kill himself