Sharingan Revision (Maybe?)

[YungManzi]

Exactly what the title says.

1) Right now, it's generally accepted that Sharingan users have battle precognition via seeing slight muscle tensions and predict movements in battle that way.

But...I started to wonder where this interpretation even came from. I checked some forums...couldn't find it. Checked the Narutopedia and they cite Sasuke's fight with Naruto, and nowhere in that fight is it stated that Sasuke predicted Naruto's moves via muscle tensions. In fact, some users have interpreted those scans as Sasuke's Sharingan literally showing him images of the future.

I'm sure the muscle tension thing is stated somewhere (Because it seems like such a widespread idea), I just can't seem to find it.

2) In my search for the above, I did find this in chapter 26; pages 13 & 14, which seem to suggest that rather than being actual precognition, it's a sort of mind manipulation that forces the user's opponent to make moves which are extremely predictable to the user, even going as far as to manipulate and discern thought patterns.

This part probably only applies for Kakashi (Maybe, I have no idea tbh), but it's a start.




3) We could give "possibly Reactive Evolution" to sharingan users who don't have fully developed Sharingans or Mangekyo Sharingan (As it can evolved while experiencing trauma/battle)

 

[YungManzi]

After this, all that's left is Delta's immortality.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Muscle Tension was stated on the manga, the official translation say "the force of the body" and we use muscle tension, wich is almost the same thing.

That's what the official portuguese translation says

 

[YungManzi]

"The force of the body?"

This was stated somewhere in Naruto V. Sasuke? Can't that be taken as something completely different from muscle tension?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

That is not reactive evolution.

 

[YungManzi]

Why isn't it?

[Reactive Evolution is the ability to, in response to threats and adverse situations, adapt to grow better capable of dealing with any given issue; this can mean growing to become more resistant to certain methods of attack and certain abilities, developing new powers to better defend one's self, or just becoming more powerful to become an even greater threat.]

^^This is what sharingan evolution is.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Because you're equating the requirements to evolve it into an actual power.

 

[YungManzi]

Because it technically is. Sharingan which aren't fully developed (One/two tomoe) can be evolved in battle. And Mangekyo sharingan can be awakened via a very traumatic experience.

Let's say we have a character who has a fully developed sharingan, and they're going up against a character who is know to inflict the absolute worst torture imaginable before killing their opponents...in that case it could be argued that the sharingan user could possibly awaken a mangekyo sharingan.

It's not exactly what most people whoukd think of when you say "reactive evolution" but that's because it only applies to their sharingan and not really the user themselves...although it should still fall in that category imo.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

That's not reactive evolution, that's the sharingan reaching maturity. It's a progression not an evolution.

 

[AstralKing7]

I agree somewhat with reactive evolution for sharingans

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

By that logic, we should give reactive evolution to any ability that in some way progresses to some stage further forward because that's how its supposed to work.

If the Sharingan showed some ability to evolve beyond pre determined stages every time the user gets in an stressful situation, then yeah. But this is a no.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't remember anything about muscle tension either. But it is based on reading the body at least, which is why Sasuke couldn't dodge the chakra arms from Naruto.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

 

[AstralKing7]

Looks like Sasuke is most likely referring to energy/chakra. It makes sense since sharingan can see chakra flow naturally. That must be what he is using to see the images

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Astral

I think so as well. (I put better scans up)

 

[YungManzi]

It's evolution does stop at a point, so how about [Limted Reactive Evolution for his/her Sharingan].

The sharingan does indeed evolve through battle, and a base sharingan can evolve to a Mangekyo sharingan in an extremely stressful situation.

How is that not Reactive Evolution, at least in a limited form?

"By that logic, we should give reactive evolution to any ability that in some way progresses to some stage further forward because that's how its supposed to work."

Not exactly. The difference here is that the sharingan can evolve to its next stage in the middle of combat. [Sasuke against Haku and Naruto (Although in this fight the curse mark did influence its evolution.)]

 

[YungManzi]

@Qawsedf

It's possible he couldn't read the chakra's movement because of how erratic and unpredictable it is (Hence, his statement of "It's like it has a mind of it's own".), and not necessarily because his sharingan relies on body movements.

I honestly am split either way on this though. If the source of the muscle tension thing is found, I'll conceed on this point.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Not exactly. The difference here is that the sharingan can evolve to its next stage in the middle of combat. [Sasuke against Haku and Naruto (Although in this fight the curse mark did influence its evolution.)]

Except many of those abilities can also evolve in the middle of combat. Again, that's just the sharingan reaching maturity. You are missing a fundamental line, that being "adapt to grow better capable of dealing with any given issue". The sharingan isn't adapting, or rather its not growing in response to said adverse situation. It simply developing by increased mastery and a tense situations, not simply to give the uchiha a better chance because he could potentially die.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It could be the above scan but under a different translation. To my knowledge the fan version of that scene is much larger dialogue wise.

 

[HST_Master]

Not exactly. The difference here is that the sharingan can evolve to its next stage in the middle of combat. [Sasuke against Haku and Naruto (Although in this fight the curse mark did influence its evolution.)]

Except the Sharingan can evolve without being in the middle of combat at all. Itachi gained his Mangekyo from seeing Shisui kill himself. Obito despite not fighting skipped straight to the mangekyo after seeing Rin die. Sarada gained her Sharingan out of outright Joy from seeing Sasuke. The evolution of the Sharingan only requires high emotions, not combat like other RE (Zenkai Boosts, Incursio's Adaptation).

 

[YungManzi]

Saying that Sharingan evolution requires combat is the opposite of my point.

Something I haven't claimed at all in this thread.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

Your position is like me saying all humans have reactive evolution because when they workout and their muscles tear down they grow back to become even stronger.

It's supposed to happen. Getting stronger as a response to a need is reactive power level. Higher forms of ocular powers are progressions.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

There's a reason "reactive" is in the name. Merely growing stronger or gaining new powers isn't it.

Even more, it's not even an evolution because the sharingan isn't growing in anyway it wouldn't have grown with time. You are just unlocking it's inherent power.

 

[AstralKing7]

The sharingan actually reacts to the users will I remember correctly. Which is why Obito was given Kamui. His MS reacted to his feelings since he didn't want anyone to see him cry so he was given his own pocket dimension which he could only access. Don't know how true that is tho

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

What?

 

[Aernasilver]

Smells like fanfic. In any case I also don't agree with Reactive Evolution.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Sounds too much like fanfic agreed. But that still wouldn't be reactive evolution since after you gain your Mangekyo, you get it and you are done. Nothing new unless you have more than one power and haven't unlocked them all.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I disagree with Reactive Evolution, as well.

The Sharingan simply has stages of progression as it reaches maturity, with it's abilities strengthing as it does. The fact that combat, emotions or otherwise tense situations can cause it to mature faster just sounds Reactive Power Level. Even then, I'd call it Limited Reactive Power Level as the Sharingan does eventually just stops once it's completely mature.

Reactive Evolution is not just getting stronger abilities but also getting abilities in response to your situation. If such a thing was the case, we'd be seeing Sharingan users developing entirely different powersets. Instead, they all have a steady set of abilities with just one or two unqiue abilities, which can just be chalked up to everyone being different.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

And the unique abilities are from the Mangekyo, which is not a natural step of the progression in the sense that anyone could get it by trying and the powers seem more geared by the person's nature than specific battlefield needs.

 

[YungManzi]

"But that still wouldn't be reactive evolution since after you gain your Mangekyo, you get it and you are done. Nothing new unless you have more than one power and haven't unlocked them all."

Which is why I suggest Limited reactive evolution. Because that's what it is.

@TheC2

I don't want to turn this into an entire discussion about what reactive evolution actually is, so I'll just re-quote myself quoting the Reactive evolution page and see how many boxes the sharingan checks.

[Reactive Evolution is the ability to, in response to threats and adverse situations (Check), adapt to grow better capable of dealing with any given issue; this can mean growing to become more resistant to certain methods of attack and certain abilities, developing new powers to better defend one's self (Check, Mangekyo Sharingan develops a new ability in an extremely "adverse situation"), or just becoming more powerful to become an even greater threat (Check, lower level sharingan can become more potent in battle fairly quickly as shown in Sasuke's battle against Haku).]

^^This is what Sharingan evolution is.

Keep in mind that I'm only suggesting Limited Reactive Evolution for people who do not have fully developed Sharingan or Mangekyo Sharingan.

The only part this doesn't fall under is the "Any given issue" part, which is part of the reason why I added "Limited" to Sharingan's Reactive Evolution.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

If Limited Reactive Evolution by the very nature of the ability and its name doesn't sound counter intuitive to you, then I am not sure what to say.

And that's still a no. Losing a loved one, causing such extreme grief that it causes a special chakra in the brain to activate is not "developing an ability for adverse situations". The ability isn't even tailored to the situaton, it's tailored to the nature of the user. The Sharingan isn't maturing to react to the situation, it's reacting to the emotions caused by the situation and becoming more powerful. Sasuke couldn't deal with Killer Bee any better if he only had 2 tomoe and developed his Sharingan against Killer Bee. He would have also gained an entirely useless ability to deal with Naruto if his 3rd Tomoe appeared when Naruto already had the cloak, but he would have still developed it because intense situation.

 

[Paul_Frank]

No that doesn't even make sense. You don't get the mangekyou from being in danger you get it from losing someone. Thats not reavtive evolution not even a limited form.

 

[YungManzi]

@Paul Frank

Wrong. You get Mangekyou the same way you get Sharingan. Experiencing extreme emotions (Mainly despair).

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

What I said above doesn't change, less so how counter intuitive Limited Reactive Evolution sounds.

 

[Paul_Frank]

@yung

No the mangekyou can only be awakened from the trauma of witnessing the death of someone close. That is the criteria we were given before and no one has awakened it without seeing someone close die before.

 

[YungManzi]

Sasuke didn't awaken it from the despair of Itachi dying. He awakened it once he learned about the truth of the Uchiha massacre.

Edit:

He hated Itachi before that.

 

[Paul_Frank]

No he awakened it from Itachi dying it was delayed though since he wasn't close to him at that time

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

He technically does get it from Itachi dying, seeing how he didn't realize the despair of killing the brother that still loved him and was willingly making himself a hated criminal for the greater good of others until he knows the full story.

 

[YungManzi]

That's still getting it from the despair of his realization and not the actual act of killing Itachi.

In other words, if he experienced something which caused a simlar feeling of despair, he would have been able to awaken MS regardless.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

That's relying heavily in semantics. Killing Itachi is literally the cause, he killed the only family he really had and that still loved him.

My other points remain, so no to Reactive Evolution.