Shallow Vernal Tier 1 Discussion

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I made a blog about a new character i will make in the future.

Ap​

To make a summary of how powerful she is,

• She can kill beings that exceed infinity and even beings that can create higher dimensions
• Can kill infinite identical beings in an infinite multidimensional universe
• Her power is the Epilogue, she is the end of everything, everything will eventually end, and she is that end, thus nobody can ever beat her.
• She can end stories, everyone else being characters within a story, while she is the reader

This thread is basically to decide how powerful exactly she is, now in my belief her seeing everyone as characters in a story even beings that exist infinitely in an infinite universe, and beings which can't be described even by infinite, would make her 5-D.

However she has also killed beings who can create higher dimensions and that's due to her nature as being the end, seeing everything as fictional, if these higher dimensions are legit, it would put her at 6-D, though it's higher dimensions in plural, so does that make her 7-D?

The higher dimensions are defined in the context of an hierarchy, Shallow Vernal showed up and destroyed a world, nobody thought that was impressive, because beings outside of logic exist that know people that can destroy a planet, exceed destroying a planet, beings that are larger than infinite, and finally beings that can create higher dimensions.

Speed​

The next thing to discuss is her speed, to summarize, you can't run from her, and even if you killed her at the beginning of the fight without giving a chance to use her abilities, she would just end the story of "the being who killed her before she used her abilities", this is contradictory because if she is killed at the beginning she shouldn't be able to use her abilities, but Shallow Vernal can still do that, because she is the Epilogue, as soon as she appears, the story is at its end, so no matter what you do, you will die, Shallow Vernal just "closes the book", "ends the story" because she is the reader.

Not sure how fast this makes her, i am thinking either infinite or immeasurable.

Abilities​

You can't kill nor seal Shallow Vernal, nor protect yourself, nor erase it from existing with the law of causality. It's said that it's not that the characters attacks who have these abilities won't hit her, but that even when they hit her it's meaningless, because as soon as she appears, the story of their world has already entered its final chapter. That’s why, no matter how hard they tried, they met their ends.

So idk if this is really resistance or just that she has potent plot manipulation.

Anyway i will be gone for a bit, in a little while so, if i don't respond that's why.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Oh look, its Yogiri's sister!

Anyways, not sure about the higher dimensional part, but at the very least, she is Low 1-C.

 

[Rikimarox2]

she would just end the story of "the being who killed her before she used her abilities", this is contradictory because if she is killed at the beginning she shouldn't be able to use her abilities, but Shallow Vernal can still do that, because she is the Epilogue, as soon as she appears, the story is at its end, so no matter what you do, you will die, Shallow Vernal just "closes the book", "ends the story" because she is the reader.

Also, are we sure that this is a speed feat and not just some kind of plot/fate manipulation?

 

[AKUTO123]

at least low 1C probably looks like 1C to me

 

[Ovy7]

I think I've seen some of those quotes in the translation request thread, and yeah, they do have the Kanji for "higher dimensions", so IMO at least Low 1-C works.

Also, are we sure that this is a speed feat and not just some kind of plot/fate manipulation?

Yeah, that seems more like plot manip to me.

 

[AKUTO123]

Not sure how fast this makes her, i am thinking either infinite or immeasurable.

immeasurable speed makes sense I don't think infinite speed is involved

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

A more pressing question is, where do you find these novels with these characters, CP?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I didn't find this on my own, another guy put me on to it saying the verse is universe level, I get into the verse and it's far beyond that.

Though this stuff only was translated in the last month since there are 2-3 chapters translated everyday, so that person just didn't know, and the universal feats were just planetary.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So i am back, from what i can see so far, most people think she is Low 1-C, but nobody said whether it's 5-D or 6-D.

Speed is a mixed, some don't think it's speed, and nobody has talked about her abilities yet.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

I guess 6-C Low 1-C is good?

The basis for that is, as you say, on the fact that she can kill even beings who can bring about higher dimensions (高位次元, or Kōi-jigen) at will, and the other stuff in the summary as well as being the "reader" to those inside the "book" as one who brings about their end.

Not sure of speed. Guess it would immeasurable or the fact that being a story's "End/Epilogue" makes it pointless no matter what you do?

 

[Rikimarox2]

I'm not sure if the higher dimension part alone is enough to warrant a higher tier.

Immeasurable speed sounds like a big fat no, since it seems like it's plot/fate manip.

Also, are there any more scans to her seeing everyone else as fiction? Are we sure it isn't the plot manipulation that makes it seem like that?

Like, if I had plot manip, I'd see basically everyone else as just a story, and I as the reader since I can literally manipulate the plot. I'd honestly just go with "possibly Low 1-C"

That said, idk shit about the verse, so I may very well be downplaying the verse. So if possible, could you give more scans on the higher dimensional part, and seeing everyone as fiction?

 

[Worthless]

I'm not sure if the higher dimension part alone is enough to warrant a higher tier.

Why not?

Immeasurable speed sounds like a big fat no, since it seems like it's plot/fate manip.

Passive i guess? The moment she appeared your story already reach its end/last chapter she's basically like the reader. even if you killed her before she could use her Epilogue thingy You'd still die.

Also, are there any more scans to her seeing everyone else as fiction? Are we sure it isn't the plot manipulation that makes it seem like that?

Like, if I had plot manip, I'd see basically everyone else as just a story, and I as the reader since I can literally manipulate the plot. I'd honestly just go with "possibly Low 1-C"

That said, idk shit about the verse, so I may very well be downplaying the verse. So if possible, could you give more scans on the higher dimensional part, and seeing everyone as fiction?

Sadly There is no more feats about it but I'll just show the feats of cp statements, if someone ever not read the blog:

[If a world is described as a book, then Shallow Vernal is a being… no, the phenomenon that can close it. There is no story that never ends. Whether it is tragedy, comedy, or stagnation… There is an end to every story. Therefore, no matter who it is, no matter what kind of being it is… They’re no match for Shallow Vernal.
No matter how long you try to delay it, everything will eventually end.]

[…And… that’s why… She’s the Epilogue…] [For example, suppose an omnipotent being had the ability to “nullify the abilities of Shallow Vernal”. Then, what will happen is that…”she would end the story of the being that has the ability to nullify the abilities of Shallow Vernal”.]

As lightly as if she were singing and as sonorously as if she were looking up to the heavens, Eden continues to speak. The story of Shallow Vernal, the system that ends the story…

[Well then, what do you think would happen if there was a being that had completely obliterated Shallow Vernal’s very being at the beginning of their encounter, without giving her a chance to use her abilities?]

[…”She would end the story of this being that has completely obliterated Shallow Vernal-sama”?]

[Yes, that’s right. It may seem contradictory, but that will definitely happen. The moment Shallow Vernal appears is the Epilogue. No matter how long you stretch your story out, it will end someday. She is the phenomenon that brings the end itself. When the book is closed, the story comes to an end. When the curtain is pulled down, the stage is over… You may go back to the start again, but it will be the reader who decides whether your story is opened again. If we are to be compared to the characters of a story… She would be the reader.]

Kill a beings that can't be even describe by the word infinite, beings that can easily create higher Dimensions:

A certain being appeared out of nowhere in one of the many worlds. At first, it did not take any action, continuously staring at the world… before without rhyme nor reason, it brought the world to its end.

The information about this being was passed on to the creators of many worlds by a god with the power called omniscient… but at that time, it was not perceived as a threat.

Because for most of the creators of worlds, erasing a single world is not an impossible task. For those who exist outside the scope of logic… there is nothing noteworthy about omnipotent beings, beings that exceed omnipotence, being that cannot even be described by the word infinite, and beings that can freely create higher dimensions.

They could easily deal with her… at that time… that was what they thought. Omnipotent beings, beings that exceed omnipotence, beings that cannot even be described by the word infinite, and even those beings that can create higher dimensions at will… Their worlds were brought to an end and they disappeared.

Can kill beings that exists in an infinite multidimensional universe with ease:

[She’s someone who would suddenly appear before a world, and bring the curtain of this world’s story to a close. Let’s see, I guess it must be appropriate to say that… what suddenly appears before these worlds is the “phenomenon” called Shallow Vernal.]

[…Phenomenon?]

[Let me give you a brief description.]

As she said this, Eden-san made a book appear in her hand, casually opened it and showed it to Alice. On its page, there is a drawing of what seems to be a universe.

[For example, let’s assume that the beings depicted on this page… are infinite identical beings in an infinite multidimensional universe, with even higher capabilities of omniscience and omnipotence. One of them can erase multiple galaxies with a single breath, and obliterate worlds with a casual wave of their hand. How would you… defeat such a being?]

[…An infinitely omnipotent being huh… I honestly couldn’t think of any. I might be able to pull off their authority and take them down one of them, but they’ll just make up for it soon enough… With its infinite numbers, it’s impossible for me to defeat all of her bodies at the same time. I mean, in the first place, is it even possible to defeat such a being?]

[I, at least, wouldn’t be able to beat such a being. Well then, as to what Shallow Vernal would do against such a being… it’s very simple. All she will do is this.]

Saying that, Eden “closed” the book.

[…That is Shallow Vernal’s power. “End a story”… Faced against an omniscient and omnipotent being, even with all the omniscience and omnipotence this being had, she would end their story. Faced with a being that exists in an infinite multidimensional universe which is more omniscient and omnipotent than other Gods, she would end the story of this being that exists in an infinite multidimensional universe which is more omniscient and omnipotent than other Gods.]

 

[Makenai]

By infinite multidimensional universe does that means the universe have infinite spatio-temporal dimension or something? Does this have more elaboration?

Could be 2-A or simply Higher Dimensional existence tho.

 

[Ovy7]

It means that the universe is infinite in size and has multiple dimensions.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I'm not sure if the higher dimension part alone is enough to warrant a higher tier.

Immeasurable speed sounds like a big fat no, since it seems like it's plot/fate manip.

Also, are there any more scans to her seeing everyone else as fiction? Are we sure it isn't the plot manipulation that makes it seem like that?

Like, if I had plot manip, I'd see basically everyone else as just a story, and I as the reader since I can literally manipulate the plot. I'd honestly just go with "possibly Low 1-C"

That said, idk shit about the verse, so I may very well be downplaying the verse. So if possible, could you give more scans on the higher dimensional part, and seeing everyone as fiction?

The higher dimensions use the kanji for higher dimensions and are used in the context of being superior to beings that are larger than infinity, i think they are legit imo.

Even if it's plot/fate manipulation, you have to consider the mechanics of it, the moment Shallow Vernal appears is the last story arc, even if you killed her before she used her abilities, she would still use her ability to end the person who killed her before she used her abilities.

Also you can't run from her, more precisely, it's not that you can't run, but it's meaningless even if you do, bear in mind, God's of Worlds like Incomplete Shallow Vernal and Eden, have the ability to travel through time.

Shallow Vernal is The Epilogue and the Last Story, she is the end of all stories and the final story, thus she can't die as long as other stories exist. Shallow Vernal is a system that ends stories, and no matter what you do, she will win because when the book is closed, the story comes to an end, when the curtain is pulled down, the stage is over the reader is the one who decides whether your story is opened again., everyone else are analogous to characters within a story, and Shallow Vernal is the reader.

Shallow Vernal's complete form is something that just got some explanation in the past 100 chapters, with the next arc being an all out war between gods and demons started by Shallow Vernal, so no doubt we will get more info, but honestly i think we have enough info to make her Low 1-C.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I'm still iffy about it qualifying, but I'll let people be the judge of that.

For the mechanics part, it could very well just be passive plot manip.

For traveling in time, was it explicitly stated that they traveled through via sheer speed or used some sort of an ability?

If it's the former, then yeah, it's immeasurable. If its the latter, then no.

With the current evidence at hand, I feel like Low 1C is justified, but I feel everything above that isn't.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

If it's passive plot manipulation, it's apparently faster than other passives since even if she is killed before ever using her abilities, she would still use her abilities, which is contradictory, because if she is completely destroyed at the beginning before using her abilities, she shouldn't be able to use her abilities.

The point about Eden and Incomplete Shallow Vernal wasn't that they have Immeasurable speed, just that Complete Shallow Vernal would affect them anyway even if they went to the past to run from her. Though i guess you could chalk that up to range, that the range of her ability extends throughout time.

Low 1-C is cool with me, we probably should get some other people here now i guess who deal with this high tier stuff.

Edit: Wow, just checked to see the latest translations of the series, and 5 new ones are out, 5 in a day, off to go read those.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Yeah, I'd prefer more evidence, but I'm all in for "Possibly Immeasurable", though people will have to decide if they are fine with it or not.

 

[Delta333]

I think faster than passive hax is not enough for immeasurable speed,same reason with faster than infinite speed won't give you immeasurable speed,not to mention look like that's ability can activate even when she is killed instead of an actual speed feat

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I mean i am fine with Infinite or just passive hax, just that this has a weird mechanic, that i still can't fully wrap my head around. That's why i am looking for opinions, only thing i personally think is definitive is her tier.

Might as well get some other people her @Ultima_Reality @DarkDragonMedeus


Btw what about her abilities? Is it that she has resistances to sealing, power null etc, or just potent plot hax?

 

[Rikimarox2]

Pretty sure its just her plot manipulation.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The AP and abilities look fine to me, but I'm not understanding what makes the speed infinite or immeasurable, I might be able to help if I here more details.

 

[Delta333]

Does she perceive 4-D being as fictional character?if she can do that then she is low 1-C,however if I read correctly she only perceives beings who can create higher dimensions as fiction,and in fact 3-D beings can still create higher dimensions just fine,and beings that exceed infinity is not enough for 4-D

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

A certain being appeared out of nowhere in one of the many worlds. At first, it did not take any action, continuously staring at the world… before without rhyme nor reason, it brought the world to its end.
The information about this being was passed on to the creators of many worlds by a god with the power called omniscient… but at that time, it was not perceived as a threat.

Because for most of the creators of worlds, erasing a single world is not an impossible task. For those who exist outside the scope of logic… there is nothing noteworthy about omnipotent beings, beings that exceed omnipotence, being that cannot even be described by the word infinite, and beings that can freely create higher dimensions.

They could easily deal with her… at that time… that was what they thought.

Omnipotent beings, beings that exceed omnipotence, beings that cannot even be described by the word infinite, and even those beings that can create higher dimensions at will… Their worlds were brought to an end and they disappeared.-Chapter 575

She perceives beings who can't even be described by the world infinite as fictional. From the tiering system:

"Characters who are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums of a universal scale. However, it can be more generally fulfilled by any 4-dimensional space that is either:"

Wouldn't these beings whom the word infinite doesn't even apply, necessarily have to be 4-D?

Also whether the beings who can create higher dimensions are 3-D or not, their worlds along with them were ended, wouldn't the worlds they created in this context be those higher dimensions?

I mean regardless Shallow Vernal is the suppose to be the ultimate power, i don't see why the higher dimensions would be an exception.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@DarkDragonMedeus

Vernal is the Epilogue, as soon as she appears, the story is in its final arc, and thus no matter what you do, you can't escape, because every story ends.

Even if you killed Vernal at the very beginning before she used her abilities, she would just "end the story of the being who killed her before she used her abilities".

[Well then, what do you think would happen if there was a being that had completely obliterated Shallow Vernal's very being at the beginning of their encounter, without giving her a chance to use her abilities?]

[……"She would end the story of this being that has completely obliterated Shallow Vernal-sama"?]

[Yes, that's right. It may seem contradictory, but that will definitely happen. The moment Shallow Vernal appears is the Epilogue. No matter how long you stretch your story out, it will end someday. She is the phenomenon that brings the end itself. When the book is closed, the story comes to an end. When the curtain is pulled down, the stage is over…… You may go back to the start again, but it will be the reader who decides whether your story is opened again. If we are to be compared to the characters of a story…… She would be the reader.]-Chapter 545

That's why i initially thought it might be infinite, but currently doesn't seem like anyone else thinks so.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, that's a really weird way of interpreting it; I was just trying to make sure it wasn't just dimensional travel, time travel, or temporal presence. Not saying those a relevant, just common things people often mix with Infinite or Immeasurable.

Though, it appears some epilogue version goes back when the past self is defeated before using those powers? I'm inclined to say it looks more like Immeasurable than it does Infinite. But after reading through it, I'm leaning towards thinking it likely is Immeasurable speed.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I guess that's one way to interpret it?

Shallow Vernal is the Epilogue, the end of all stories, so when she appears, the story is at it's end, so even if you killed her at the beginning of the fight before she uses her abilities, Vernal will bring the end anyway.

Idk if this is her travelling to the past, or some plot/fate manipulation going on, where the end is predetermined from the moment she appears, even in that cause though, this end comes regardless of whether Vernal uses her ability to bring the end, so idk what's going on there.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I suppose it's just very vague and up to interpretation; it's unknown if it's plot/Fate Manipulation or Immeasurable speed, but maybe it's less hypothetical to go with the former if the final outcome it a predetermined epilogue.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I suppose Unknown would be best for her speed then until we get some more info, which we will since there is a war arc coming, and Kuro and Vernal fuse to become their complete self again, in the after stories, so clearly in the main story it will happen.

Should we acknowledge the possibility of her having Immeasurable speed at all, with a Unknown, Possibly Immeasurable or just leave it at Unknown?

As for the resistances i proposed in the op, @Rikimarox2 thinks its just her plot manipulation which stops those abilities from working on her.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I'm honestly okay with a "Unknown possibly immeasurable" speed, for the record. Since it affected beings who went to the past as well. Coupled with the whole that even if you beat her before she uses her abilities, she'd still kill you. That seems enough to warrant a possibly.

Though, you could argue it's only range, so I won't be surprised if that gets rejected.

 

[Worthless]

"Unknown possibly immeasurable" and so now it's done?

Random but... I'm betting there is someone even powerful than shallow that created her for a purpose to destroy all stories . I mean appearing out of nowhere and the only thing in "her mind is to destroy all existing stories" so weird . Her nature is maybe the end itself but she doesn't really need to do that lol

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Unknown possibly immeasurable seems to be fine.

If there is someone more powerful than Shallow Vernal, it's gonna be a female, and the next addition to Kaito's harem. Guy is ridiculous everyone he meets, even if they haven't changed in tens of thousands of years, changes, becoming his ally.

This is a different sort of story, where its a slice of life (the author even actively mocks serious developments), so you follow the characters doing normal stuff like eating, while at the same time having a lot of fights, just for for the gods and demons, from said fight, to end up falling in love with Kaito.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Lovecraft has nothing on this.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Anyways, are there any mentions of those higher dimensions to be actually superior to the lower ones? If not, then I doubt she gets anything above 5-D.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

If a superiority over 4-D beings doesn't count, then no.

Maybe higher dimensions will be brought up again later, considering apparently in the raws, her Incomplete Form is destroying galaxies in a single hit, along with affecting multiple dimensions, the "omnipotent" beings seem to be beyond just planetary like i thought.

That's a thread for another day, after the final arc is done translated, if the current evidence isn't enough, 5-D is cool with me.

 

[Rikimarox2]

If it hasn't shown actual transcendence or smth over 4-D beings, then I doubt we can accept this. So, for now, she's 5-D.

Though, considering the scans that I have seen, I won't be surprised if she becomes much higher later.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Cool, think we should close this thread now?

 

[Rikimarox2]

Since it doesn't seem like there's anything left, yeah. We should close this.