Shall android 17 have low 2-C durability?

[TruthMe]

I know there are arguments to not consider him an overall complete low 2-C character in all of ways.

For instance, when he hurted Jiren for the first time, it was stated that he caught him of guard, so him been low 2-C in attack power could be questionable.

However, I'm talking about a very specific aspect of the character. (Durability)

I'm not talking about attack power or strenght.

Here's the reason why I think we could possibly upgrade his durability to low 2-C

The thing is that many people would argue that since it wasn't allowed to kill in the Tournament of Power, GoD Toppo and Jiren would be holding back to not kill him.

However there is no indication whatsoever, that Jiren was holding back much more against android 17 in the amount of strenght and power in his attacks than he did against Goku and Vegeta.

You could still argue that android 17 received less quantity of attacks than Goku and Vegeta from Jiren, which is accurate, because they fought Jiren more and for more time. However, I think it is dubious to think Jiren attacked 17 with less amount of power than he did with Goku and Vegeta.




.

.

For instance, I have no reason to think Jiren hit Goku with more power than he used to hit android 17, if they had the intention to make it look like Jiren used less power against 17 than he did on Goku, then they would have drawn or animate it differently, they might have drawn a much bigger shockwave on Goku's side or draw some lights or lightnings or something to suggest that Jiren used more power on Goku than on 17, but clearly, this was not the case, the intention here was to show Jiren hitting them with about equal strenght.

--

However, if you want to doubt about it, here is another one:













.


.


.


.


.

.

.

We all know Android 17 received a kick that was meant for SSJBE Vegeta, so even if Jiren was holding back, he was not holding back to kick 17, he was holding back to not kill Vegeta, but not so much he couldn't hurt Vegeta.

We considere Vegeta SSJBE to be a full Low 2-C character, so Jiren had no reasons to hold back that much in this kick, yet the one who ended receiving it was 17.

But that isn't all:







.

.

.

.

.

.

Just after Jiren gave android 17 that Kick, he proceeded to blast 17 with an energy attack.

So here is the thing, SSJBE is low 2-c, Jiren is low 2-c, Jiren was trying to hurt Vegeta, therefore, he would use a low 2-C kick, but we don't considere Android 17 to have low 2-C durability.

If Jiren was so worried about not killing android 17 to avoid been disqualified, then why blast 17 just after he received that Kick which was meant for Vegeta? Why blast someone who might be on the verge of death due to receiving a low 2-c kick without having low 2-c durability? It wouldn't make sense!

Clearly Jiren knew 17 could take it, since that moment on, I have absolutely no reason to think Jiren punched, kicked or blasted 17 with much lesser power than he did with Goku or Vegeta any other time.

And even, after receiving that kick and that blast just a few seconds later, we see that 17 is the first one to hurt Jiren:




I'm not talking about his attack power here for hurting Jiren, I'm talking about the fact that he was able to stand up and continue fighting after receiving that kick and that energy blast from Jiren.

---

But if you people want a third indicator, look here:




Goku SSJB Kaioken, Vegeta SSJB evolution and 17 were all attacking Jiren at the same time with their energy beams. We have no indication of how powerful are the energy beams in relation to each other, and we might not be able to argue how powerful is 17's energy beam in relation to Goku's or Vegeta's.

However, here comes the important part:







Jiren was easily repelling the energy beams with his own aura/energy, and then, Jiren proceeded to counter-attack them with a huge energy explotion, he didn't used separated attacks on Goku, Vegeta and N┬░17, Jiren clearly used one single big attack to take out the 3 of them at the same time, so we can't argue or theorize that he used lesser strenght or power in his attack against Android 17, because the same attack that he used on SSJB kaioken Goku and SSJB evolution Vegeta, is the same attack he used on Android 17.




Furthermore, the first one to stand up and continue fight of the three of them was Android 17, it could be argued that it is because of his limitless stamina and that Goku and Vegeta were tired in a way 17 wasn't, but, regardless, the thing here is that it is very clear that 17 took a low 2-C energy attack which was meant to hurt and knock out Low 2-C Goku and Vegeta in their more powerful transformations, and was able to continue fighting.

--

But even more interesting to point out:




.

.

.

None of the attacks Android 17 received from Jiren, nor GoD Toppo were able to take him out of battle for any considerable amount of time.




In fact, the only thing that was able to take him out of battle for a while was his own self destruct explotion (Which I know here, some people here might consider it as an outlier, but hey, I'm not even arguing about 17 attack power, I'm arguing about his durability) So I think this an important thing to take into account. (The fact that none of those attacks, nor the attacks he received from anybody else in the Tournament were really able to put him down)

So, even most people wouldn't consider him above high 3-A attack wise here, I think there is a compelling case for A-17 to be Low 2-C durability wise.

 

[Elizhaa]

I am neutral. I do remember Jiren and Toppo hold themself immensely especially because of the rule where killing is prohibited.

 

[Theglassman12]

neutral about this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Jiren and Toppo weren't going all out and were holding back immensely; also, Android 17 consistently trades blows with characters capable of harming him so his Attack Potency would have to be on par with his durability.

Anyway, it was brought up before numerous times that Android 17 shouldn't be on par with Jiren or Toppo. He's the 3rd strongest member of Universe 7 team for sure putting him above Gohan and Frieza at the time, but he still has no reason to be Low 2-C. He's fine where he's at right now.

 

[GodTongue5280]

Yes Jiren is holding back, but he's still using more power against Goku and Vegeta in that instance than he did against Omen 1 Goku for example. And 17 blatantly tanked an attack that was meant for Blue Evolution Vegeta. There's also the instance where Jiren fires a blast at SSJBKK Goku and SSJBE Vegeta, and they dodge, and the blast hits 17 and Frieza, which they survive.

 

[Dvorak1902]

How does it even make sense for Low 2-C's to be fighting against characters with 3-D power? Like, at all? There's literally a dimension worth of power in between. There's no possible way for those characters to be comparable to each other.

 

[RashFaustinho]

I actually agree with OP.

We scaled characters to higher tiers for much stupid reasons in the Dragon Ball Verse (IMHO).

Pre-TOP Gohan is 3A. Because he fought with Piccolo, Piccolo who fought with Frost, Frost who fought with Goku, a Goku that MAYBE was using the power of the Super Saiyan God because he absorbed it between BOG and ROF, even though said power was probably never used again given that the supposed "power of super saiyan god" is never mentioned again and that same SSG makes his return during the TOP.

Compared to this nonsense, I found much more reliable what OP is proposing. It wouldn't make sense for Jiren to hold back, especially in that shot where he was trying to hit SSBE Vegeta, but hits N.17 instead.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Goku has proof to be 3-A in base form ever since BoG saga and he only got stronger after that. And Frost was initially stated to possibly be above Final Form Frieza who was equal to Base Goku during RoF saga. Piccolo also has enough reason to be 3-A and Gohan also initially went toe to toe with SSB Goku and Piccolo also kept up with Gohan. So they have every reason to be 3-A.

There's no proof that 17 could scale to even a casual Jiren or Toppo as Toppo is literally erasing everything and Vegeta had to go all out to bring him down. Even 17's explosion did like nothing to Jiren and he was only able to go toe to toe when Goku exhausted him to be roughly Base Goku's level. And yes, we're aware of the inconsistencies of 3-A and Low 2-C not being treated as Infinity gaps in Dragon Ball or even in a lot of other fictional stories, but it's how it is.

 

[RashFaustinho]

My problem with that is that what Base Goku is doing in that timeframe is related to him having the God power inside him after losing the SSG transformation. After that, we treat Goku as if ALWAYS used that power 24/7, which to me sounds nonsensical, because that feature of Goku (using the power of SSG in his inferior forms) is never referenced again after ROF

Anyway, i'm probably being Off-Topic Even if we don't want to take the 2-C durability feat, in that shot N.17 isn't even using his barrier, which increments his defensive potential anyway. 2-C durability, with at least his Shield on, doesn't sound that much of a stretch to me

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll wait for someone like Dark649 or AKM Sama; Matt's been busy, but I know he'll disagree with this for sure. Dissidia Final Fantasy is even worse in that regard given Tier 6 characters have when toe to toe with Tier 2 characters before.

 

[GodTongue5280]

I mean, universal+ is an infinite difference, it's probably just more consistent for them to have either been low 2-C since BoG, or not at all.

It especially makes zero sense for SSJB to take post ToP Goku from 3-A to low 2-C, when it doesn't do so before the ToP. Either post ToP Goku is low 2-C in general, or SSJB was always an infinite+ increase.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

Even if Jiren was holding back, he never held back to the level where he was playing with his opponent. He held back against Kale and still one-shot her and sent her blasting off again like Team Rocket.

Frieza was upgraded for getting ragdolled by Broly for an entire hour, but he was going to sleep against virtually all of the top-tiers in the tournament. I don't see how 17's circumstances are so different.

 

[ZERO7772]

Tbh I have to agree with the OP here. Android 17 literally took blows meant for SSBE Vegeta so the argument of Jiren holding back not to kill him is moot. Not to mention if Jiren was 100000000x times stronger than him he should have just one shot him with a glare.

 

[GodTongue5280]

Tbh I have to agree with the OP here. Android 17 literally took blows meant for SSBE Vegeta so the argument of Jiren holding back not to kill him is moot. Not to mention if Jiren was 100000000x times stronger than him he should have just one shot him with a glare.

This is actually a decent point, while Jiren is meditating it's acknowledged that you need a certain level of power to even get passed his passive aura.

 

[Ryukama]

neutral about this.

Same

 

[ZERO7772]

Tbh the show is not at fault here because they doesn't treat Jiren as infinity above #17, only we do.

 

[AKM sama]

One of the main reasons why Android 17 wasn't upgraded at the time was because just a couple episodes ago he was struggling against base Toppo and he had consistently been on par with 3-A characters like Gohan and SSB Goku throughout the tournament.

His sudden increase in strength for the final fights without any kind of explanation was treated as plot convenience(PIS)/outlier.

 

[GodTongue5280]

To be fair to Toppo, he completely no selled Gohan with zero difficulty. And SSJB Goku should already be low 2-C, unless the Universe 7 spirit bomb is somehow infinitely stronger than himself.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

I....really don't know the appropriate response to this. DBS already have powerscaling issues but I think the whole tournament is where powerscaling REALLY jumps the shark.

 

[Crabwhale]

How does it even make sense for Low 2-C's to be fighting against characters with 3-D power? Like, at all? There's literally a dimension worth of power in between. There's no possible way for those characters to be comparable to each other.

Because Dragon Ball, that's how.

 

[Crabwhale]

Other than that, I am neutral on this.

 

[AKM sama]

How does it even make sense for Low 2-C's to be fighting against characters with 3-D power? Like, at all? There's literally a dimension worth of power in between. There's no possible way for those characters to be comparable to each other.

Because Dragon Ball, that's how.

DB doesn't treat the gap between Low 2-C and 3-A as being infinite in magnitude. And neither do 80% of the fictional verses.

 

[ZERO7772]

^You mean more than 90% of fictional verses

Wasn't our AP Tier here inspaerd mainly by Marvel and DC comnics?

 

[TruthMe]

One of the main reasons why Android 17 wasn't upgraded at the time was because just a couple episodes ago he was struggling against base Toppo and he had consistently been on par with 3-A characters like Gohan and SSB Goku throughout the tournament.
His sudden increase in strength for the final fights without any kind of explanation was treated as plot convenience(PIS)/outlier.

Well, but we could consider the possibility that the struggles were related more with Toppo (who was hinted to be capable of reaching SSJB kaioken levels) having higher physical strenght and attack power than 17, rather than his power been too much for his durability, which is the point of the thread. For instance Toppo, was never able to knock out 17, either, the only think base Toppo could do was try to push him outside of the arena. Besides, at least when it comes to durability alone, I think 17 have more feats of been able to tank attacks from GoD Toppo and Jiren than feats of 17 struggling with base Toppo's attacks, alternatively speaking, base Toppo could be stronger than we think because his limits were never properly explored

 

[AKM sama]

His attack potency scales to his durability. And then most of the 3-A cast would become Low 2-C by scaling, even before the revelation of UIO. Treating his showings in the final fight as PIS/outlier makes more sense.

 

[Elizhaa]

His attack potency scales to his durability. And then most of the 3-A cast would become Low 2-C by scaling, even before the revelation of UIO. Treating his showings in the final fight as PIS/outlier makes more sense.

After reading the enitire thread, this comment above is my current opinion.

 

[Crabwhale]

DB doesn't treat the gap between Low 2-C and 3-A as being infinite in magnitude. And neither do 80% of the fictional verses.

Yeah

That's what I was saying.

 

[TruthMe]

His attack potency scales to his durability. And then most of the 3-A cast would become Low 2-C by scaling, even before the revelation of UIO. Treating his showings in the final fight as PIS/outlier makes more sense.

I do understand that in DB most characters sclae AP and Durability, but in fiction in general, it isn't always the case, for example in Ben 10, there is an alien called The Worst that seems to be near indestructible but doesn't seem to have any important AP, and still feels pain. Not always the case in DB either, for instance, I'm pretty sure that Magetta, Botamo and Chappil don't necessarily scale their AP with their durability, although in their case, there are more understandable cases, because in 17's case, his durability/AP discrepancy was never referred or explained.

Now, there is also the possibility that 17 did increased in power during the Tournament, just like Goku and Vegeta did, but it is harder to tell, because 17 is not the kind of character that rellies on transformations, since he isn't a saiyan or isn't like Frieza which are transformational characters who change forms to access higher power. In that sense could be more like Hit, who was able to improve from been SSJB to SSJB kaioken level inside of a single fight, but in 17 case he could have been increasing over multiple battles instead of inside a single one.

But, I think, we could leave it like that, as you said.

 

[Wokistan]

His AP scales to his durability because he can hurt people who can hurt him, not just by default.

 

[Wokistan]

Anyways, given how he's sorta in between tiers and this is at the very end of the tournament, I guess one could say something like "possibly low 2-C"?

 

[TruthMe]

Anyways, given how he's sorta in between tiers and this is at the very end of the tournament, I guess one could say something like "possibly low 2-C"?

Well, that is possible.

But since no attack (including High 3 A) during the tournament was able to knock him out and since over 90% of fiction doesn't really treat the gap between High 3-A and Low 2-C as infinite, I though that maybe somehow, High 3-A attacks could cause him pain or disconfort but can't really take him down (because at the end, it was never shown him been taken down or knocked out by any high 3-A attacks ever at any point in time during the tournament and because, even characters like Beerus can show disconfort and feel the need to scratch his head due to a bullet shot without that stopping him from been Low 2-C), and that in order to KO him or kill him, Low 2-C attacks might be necessary. Also, he wasn't able to press Jiren as hard as Goku and Vegeta did, but he was certainly able to receive attacks on the same terms of power, which could suggest that his Attack Potency and Durability might not be entirely on the same level, and that he might have higher durability than attack power, by some hard to meassure degree, you could think about him like an MMORPG Tank class.

 

[Antvasima]

I was asked to comment here, but it seems like the rest of the staff are already handling the issue, and I have to handle many other tasks.

 

[Antvasima]

We might have to do something about making a distinction between 3-A and Low 2-C at some point though. It is likely too inconsistent with fiction in general.

 

[TruthMe]

We might have to do something about making a distinction between 3-A and Low 2-C at some point though. It is likely too inconsistent with fiction in general.

Hi, thanks for the answere.

This is my idea or view about the issue:

The thing is that, many times in fiction, characters with certain tier in durability show disconfort or pain from things attacks or things that are bellow their own durability. (Not just in 3-A to 2-C gap (which we consider as infinite, but rarely behaves like that in works of fiction) but in general)

My idea is to make a simple test.

If a characters gets Knocked Out, faints, dies, gets heavily injured, incapacitated, looses a limb or somehow dies from a certain attack (without proof that the character has got weakened), and then is shown capable of tanking attacks beyond the attacks that caused the previous effect without telling us that he/she got a power up in the story, then it is inconsistent, and his durability is on the lower tier. Unless he consistently shown tanking those attacks from that point on without reverting to getting KO, fainting, dying or getting incapacitated or loosing limbs or something from the lower tier attacks without explanations (like getting weakened).

But if a character just happens to show some pain or disconfort from a lower tier attack, but is actually never really shown to us that the character gets Knocked Out, never really dies, never looses a limb, never gets a heavy injury, or never gets incapacitated by a such attack and then it is shown that he/she can consistently tank attacks on higher tier, then his/her real durability is on the higher tier.

 

[SSJRyu1]

I agree with 17 scaling. He clearly takes multiple exchanges from Jiren and Toppo, including literally jumping in front of an attack meant for SSJBE Vegeta. If he wasn't at least somewhat comparable he would not have been able to intercept or survive it. I do see that the scaling can run away though since a ton of characters could be argued to scale up as well.

I'm all for the upgrade but for consistencies sake tbh they should likely be scaled from BoG as a 4D feat, and not an assumed 3D feat like the wiki has been doing in order to try and be ultra conservative. The only reason it was placed as a 3D feat was due to the fact there were no other feats or statements on that scale to compare to it. But since then Vegeta nukes ROSAT on a 4D scale by powering up in base, Goku nukes Hit's alternate time space made from the universes timeline fragements that he skips, Zamasu literally becomes a 4D omnipresent being and is fodder to ToP Goku and Vegeta, Jiren surpasses Zamasu and is stated to trancend time itself, he and Goku even shake an infinte time space, and Goku/Vegeta can compete with him somewhat to as SSJB, while even Frieza and 17 can somewhat effect him and Toppo.

We have multiple 4D feats and statements at this point for many characters, and they all seem to at least be somewhat scalable to eachother. Realistically it makes more sense, and removes the debate about if they should be tier 3 or 2 if they are all just put as tier 2 to varying degrees based on Goku's feat in BoG being a threat to the space time of U7 as well, which is technically part of "the universe" anyway, and better matches with the statements given.

 

[RashFaustinho]

Anyway, I agree with those who said that fiction doesn't treat the distance between dimensional tiers as infinite. Someone should write that in the rules / in the tiers system, just like it has been done regarding ignoring energy conservation

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We've explanations like that in the Discussion Rules, and it's true that 90% of fiction doesn't consider the 3-A to Low 2-C gaps, but there's also a few verses that do iirc. I think Warhammer was one of the few that did elaborate that from what I heard. However, SSG Goku fighting casual Beerus still merely said destroy all matter and is clearly only 3-A, and no feat above that exists until Infinite Zamasu. And at the time he was seemingly infinitely above everyone else save the Gods of Destruction, Angels, and Zeno; but then Jiren came and was said to be far above Infinite Zamasu.

I'm overall neutral on 17 getting his 3rd key back in which he could possibly be Low 2-C. But it's been brought up countless times and both Matt and Dark649 have rejected the proposals time and time again.

 

[TruthMe]

We've explanations like that in the Discussion Rules, and it's true that 90% of fiction doesn't consider the 3-A to Low 2-C gaps, but there's also a few verses that do iirc. I think Warhammer was one of the few that did elaborate that from what I heard. However, SSG Goku fighting casual Beerus still merely said destroy all matter and is clearly only 3-A, and no feat above that exists until Infinite Zamasu. And at the time he was seemingly infinitely above everyone else save the Gods of Destruction, Angels, and Zeno; but then Jiren came and was said to be far above Infinite Zamasu.
I'm overall neutral on 17 getting his 3rd key back in which he could possibly be Low 2-C. But it's been brought up countless times and both Matt and Dark649 have rejected the proposals time and time again.

Maybe, I'm wrong. But, if 90% fiction doesn't really treat the gap of 3-A to Low 2-C as infinite, then it is safe to say that even when a character that can receive, tank and survive 2-C attacks, could very likely get smaller injuries or scratches from 3-A attacks, or at very least show some sort of pain or disconfort from it.

Then, shouldn't we see if characters can tank both 3-A attacks and Low 2-C, and if they can consistently tank both, shouldn't they have low 2-C durability by default as their higher known limit, unless the have certainly shown without doubt to consistently get Knocked Out / Faint / become unconcious, get killed or incapacitated by 3-A attacks, in which case it would be safer to assume 3-A as their limit?

 

[Dvorak1902]

90% of Fiction is an excess. 90% of Fiction isn't even combat oriented.

But okay, that's not the point of the thread.

 

[Akreious]

"And at the time he was seemingly infinitely above everyone else save the Gods of Destruction, Angels, and Zeno; but then Jiren came and was said to be far above Infinite Zamasu."

This statement is sort of ignoring the fact that Goku said he probably could've taken Infinite Zamasu if he had a Senzu bean though? No way can goku ever say that if Zamasu is infinitely above Goku no matter what.