Servant Scaling (Moon Cell) Discussion

[AizenSosuke]

She's still inside of the Moon Cell, and as I said, she hasn't demonstrated Tier 1 feats outside of the Moon Cell.

Why would she have to when she is mooncell

 

[AizenSosuke]

Me:

Anyway I am just here to watch Max King . Don't mind my existence.

Okay (Turns into SSJ Blue)

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

You're claiming that Tiamat's mud is Low 1-C because it's composed of INS and the 8D Moon Cell is composed of INS. However, that's not what your scan states. It only states that the Far Side of the Moon, where the Moon Cell dumps unneccessary information, is an imaginary number space. You're equating the Far Side of the Moon (INS) to all of the Moon Cell's simulated realities and information.

If you actually readed the scan without ignoring information you would see that it mention how the Far Side of the Moon is INS itself, how all the events of CCC happen in the Far Side/INS, how the eyes of Moon Cell's core are forbidden to enter do to the danger, the things that make the Moon Cell 8D to begin with, and there is also how super dangerous 8D characters from the Moon Cell are also made of INS.

As I've said, all the Tier 1 Scaling for Top Servants, Grand Servants, Beasts, Gods, and otherwise all ties back to the Moon Cell. All these beings scaled to Tier 1 don't possess Tier 1 feats outside of the Moon Cell.

6D Avalon, Textures, Outer Gods, Ultimate Ones, etc. laugh off.

I wrote this while defeating Koyan in LB5.5, so now that I defeated I will really stop answering and focus in the continue the LB that LB6 is close and god damn my second Morgan wait for me.

 

[MaxLevel_King]

If you actually readed the scan without ignoring information you would see that it mention how the Far Side of the Moon is INS itself, how all the events of CCC happen in the Far Side/INS, how the eyes of Moon Cell's core are forbidden to enter do to the danger, the things that make the Moon Cell 8D to begin with, and there is also how super dangerous 8D characters from the Moon Cell are also made of INS.

6D Avalon, Textures, Outer Gods, Ultimate Ones, etc. laugh off.

I wrote this while defeating Koyan in LB5.5, so now that I defeated I will really stop answering and focus in the continue the LB that LB6 is close and god damn my second Morgan wait for me.

1. I don't recall any Servants, Beasts, or Gods destroying Avalon.

2. Nothing suggests that the texture that sits on top of the Earth (where humans live and Mystery has died out in PHH) is Low 1-C.

3. Outer Gods have no connection to any other beings in the Nasuverse (they have manifested in the foriegner class, but what I'm referring to is the Outer Gods themselves). There is no reason to scale Grands, Beasts, and Gods to them.

4. None of the Ultimate Ones have Low 1-C feats either. Being the strongest being of a planet (or other celestial body) doesn't equate to being able to destroy the planet.

As for the INS, nothing you've just said contradicts what I said. Only the Far Side of the Moon (not 8D) is an INS, not the entire Moon Cell (8D). The Far Side of the Moon is considered dangerous because of the type of data that is stored there, not because it's 8D.

 

[Theoretical]

The MMC Servants stood an astronomically low chance to beat her (BB) to begin with and they were both (BB and Kiara) being nerfed to beatable lebels, so I think that speaks for itself

I don't think that answers what he says but where's the basis for BB being nerfed to beatable levels I only recall them referring to kiara like that not bb before battle mmc servants were said to be equal in authority to bb and even in the bad ending when the mmc servant dies they say "even tho they matched her in battle capability" she still beat the mmc servant atleast that's how it went down in gilgameshs route lol

The scan literally states that not even Gilgamesh knew about this. The rest of the scan's context that debunks your reasoning aside, you think Gilgamesh didn't know about the power he had in life?

Didn't it specifically say doesn't know ab the origin itself not the power of the origin?

7. The Sun having Gods which are embodiments of it doesn't prove that the Sun itself is abnormal

(1)the mooncell exists inside the moon and has 1-C realities to which you agreed upon
(2)clearly the moon itself is abnormal for containing a structure capable of creating 1-C realities
(3)the authority of the sun itself was shown to supersede that of the mooncell because authorities of the sun>that of the moon inside of the realities simulated by the mooncell which you agreed that is 1-C (so the argument that its not as powerful as it is outside of the mooncell doesn't work because it clearly surpasses it even within the mooncell itself
(C)given the fact that the moon itself is abnormal and the sun itself supersedes that the sun itself should be abnormal
(5)therefore calling a character out to be on the level of the sun within the nasuverse is not inconsistent rather gaven the context is infact consistent
C Sun level characters within the nasuverse can't be possible lesser than 1-C based on them being said to be equal to an already abnormal celestial body

(if you wish to ignore that, bb explicitly says battles that take place in the mooncell hold just as much significance in the real world, the experience and battle power gained in the mooncell can still be held outside of the mooncell and the mooncell can affect material objects outside of itself)

There are no "literal universes" inside the Moon Cell. You're conflating simulated realities with being genuine realities.

Too bad so sad the simulated realities haven't been distinguished from the actual realities infact much of the evidence points at the simulated realities holding just as much of a significance as material object that exist outside of the mooncell and the realities outside of the mooncell itself

Textures being affected (and not even destroyed) doesn't equate to planetary and above AP/DC

Doesn't mean they can't be destroyed considering the world does a pretty good job at minimizing the damage to just being "affected" and not "destroyed"
If there's a statement x can do p but b hinders x from doing P it doesn't mean x can't do P if b didn't hinder it initially that's an invalid inference

That's not my point. I know that no calc can come close to Tier 1, my point is that calcs capping at 5-B and not higher such as in Tier 3 doesn't line up with the most powerful Moon Cell Srrvants being that powerful outside of the Moon Cell

Uhh k

You completely missed the point I was making. I stated that "Anti-" means effective against, not necessarily that it can destroy that thing

This argument would hold some significance if the narrative itself didn't suggest that it can destroy not just affect like seriously do you enjoy using Selective interpretation or is it a matter of lack of critical thinking skills?

If one of the strongest Servants possess Country-level AP at best outside of the Moon Cell, and can beat most other Moon Cell Servants outside of the Moon Cell with Country-level AP

Ap≠DC what you're talking ab is DC you're acting like Excalibur is an anti world noble phantasm even tho when unsealed it has power output/Ap in this case on the level of some anti-world noble phantasms and superior to some

I don't think that most Servants are listed at Low 1-C, I think that most of the ones that are shouldn't have that tier or it should be clarified that they only have that tier inside of the Moon Cell.

Your justifications for that don't seem sufficient in guaranteeing the truth value of such a conclusion

As for the Beasts, Grands, and Gods you've brought up, most if not all of them don't have any feats remotely comparable to Low 1-C either.

You're gonna have to refute R>F higher dimensions if you wish to say grands, gods and beasts scale to low 1-C because if you let that hold then them being low 1-C damn near stays consistent lol

As I said, some of these beings might be, but definitely not all of them. Most of these beings (Grands, Beasts, Gods) only have their tier because they scale to other beings who then scale to someone who might be Low 1-C, but only under certain circumstances.

Lol

For instance, Tiamat has no Low 1-C feats. She tanked Noble Phantasms (and still took a little damage from them, ie broken horn) that were tier 6 at best.

That's fine alot of verses in this wiki have high tier characters from chain scaling if it appears consistent there's nothing wrong with that I disagree with tier 6 you failed to defend that adequately

Her energy output was compared to a hydrogen bomb (although I know she's stronger than that),

Why are you using that than you say you know she's stronger than that makes it damn near insignificant it's like saying I know I'm being disingenuous for mentioning this but I will anyways loool

Kama, as a conceptual universe, isn't Low 1-C. On top of that, she was only beaten conceptually, so Servants shouldn't scale to her because of that.

Kama chains scales to kiara your second point is fine I don't think nobody here is insane enough to suggest that servants scale to Kama

King Hassan was at least slightly struggling against the Lahmu, who aren't Low 1-C.

When

Forcing the concept of death onto Tiamat, who isn't Low 1-C either, doesn't give him Low 1-C.

You haven't defend her not being low 1-C adequately we'll dismiss this

Arjuna Alter destroying and recreating the Indian Texture isn't a Low 1-C feat.

Arjuna alters noble phantasm scales to karnas noble phantasm/armor which can negate the mooncells authority (inside of the mooncell itself which you agree is 1-C) so?

Zeus didn't have any Low 1-C feats in his Lostbelt.

Chain scales above arjuna

It was treated as a big deal when Romulus Quirinus moved FTL against Chaos

Probably because servants normally aren't ftl this just demonstrates the difference between servants and gods/grands huh

Almost none of the Grands, Beasts or Gods have Low 1-C feats.

So you ignore context to support your conclusion?

She still took damage, if only slight, from a Tier 6 NP. A Low 1-C being shouldn't be able to take any damage from a Tier 6 attack, given that Tier 1 is supposed to be infinities above the other tiers.

Your reason for it being tier 6 is related to DC and not Ap lol

I'm not downgrading the Moon Cell. I'm saying that some Low 1-C Servants should have their tier removed, but not all of them. As for the ones that keep the tier, it should be prefaced with "Only in the Moon Cell".

with these justifications? hell no try going back to the drawing board and realize the amount of logical inconsistencies predicated from your arguments

All the scaling for Tier 1 circles back to Kiara and the Moon Cell. The Moon Cell is clearly a unique case as the Tier 1 feats

Not with the justifications you presented

My argument is that Kiara and BB have only demonstrated Low 1-C feats and capabilities within the confines of the Moon Cell, and that they aren't Low 1-C outside of the Moon Cell.

Narrative says there's no significant distinction between real worlds and simulated
nasuverse enjoyer "they aren't low 1-C outside of the mooncell"

As for INS (Imaginary Number Scramble?), I don't recall any Servants destroying the entire space

Interesting I recall certain servants in the imaginary scramble being said to boast power strong enough to destroy the entire space unless I'm tripping?

 

[RitsuØ1]

I don't think that answers what he says but where's the basis for BB being nerfed to beatable levels I only recall them referring to kiara like that not bb before battle mmc servants were said to be equal in authority to bb and even in the bad ending when the mmc servant dies they say "even tho they matched her in battle capability" she still beat the mmc servant atleast that's how it went down in gilgameshs route lol

Didn't it specifically say doesn't know ab the origin itself not the power of the origin?

(1)the mooncell exists inside the moon and has 1-C realities to which you agreed upon
(2)clearly the moon itself is abnormal for containing a structure capable of creating 1-C realities
(3)the authority of the sun itself was shown to supersede that of the mooncell because authorities of the sun>that of the moon inside of the realities simulated by the mooncell which you agreed that is 1-C (so the argument that its not as powerful as it is outside of the mooncell doesn't work because it clearly surpasses it even within the mooncell itself
(C)given the fact that the moon itself is abnormal and the sun itself supersedes that the sun itself should be abnormal
(5)therefore calling a character out to be on the level of the sun within the nasuverse is not inconsistent rather gaven the context is infact consistent
C Sun level characters within the nasuverse can't be possible lesser than 1-C based on them being said to be equal to an already abnormal celestial body

(if you wish to ignore that, bb explicitly says battles that take place in the mooncell hold just as much significance in the real world, the experience and battle power gained in the mooncell can still be held outside of the mooncell and the mooncell can affect material objects outside of itself)

Too bad so sad the simulated realities haven't been distinguished from the actual realities infact much of the evidence points at the simulated realities holding just as much of a significance as material object that exist outside of the mooncell and the realities outside of the mooncell itself


Doesn't mean they can't be destroyed considering the world does a pretty good job at minimizing the damage to just being "affected" and not "destroyed"
If there's a statement x can do p but b hinders x from doing P it doesn't mean x can't do P if b didn't hinder it initially that's an invalid inference

Uhh k

This argument would hold some significance if the narrative itself didn't suggest that it can destroy not just affect like seriously do you enjoy using Selective interpretation or is it a matter of lack of critical thinking skills?

Ap≠DC what you're talking ab is DC you're acting like Excalibur is an anti world noble phantasm even tho when unsealed it has power output/Ap in this case on the level of some anti-world noble phantasms and superior to some

Your justifications for that don't seem sufficient in guaranteeing the truth value of such a conclusion

You're gonna have to refute R>F higher dimensions if you wish to say grands, gods and beasts scale to low 1-C because if you let that hold then them being low 1-C damn near stays consistent lol

Lol

That's fine alot of verses in this wiki have high tier characters from chain scaling if it appears consistent there's nothing wrong with that I disagree with tier 6 you failed to defend that adequately

Why are you using that than you say you know she's stronger than that makes it damn near insignificant it's like saying I know I'm being disingenuous for mentioning this but I will anyways loool

Kama chains scales to kiara your second point is fine I don't think nobody here is insane enough to suggest that servants scale to Kama

When

You haven't defend her not being low 1-C adequately we'll dismiss this

Arjuna alters noble phantasm scales to karnas noble phantasm/armor which can negate the mooncells authority (inside of the mooncell itself which you agree is 1-C) so?

Chain scales above arjuna

Probably because servants normally aren't ftl this just demonstrates the difference between servants and gods/grands huh

So you ignore context to support your conclusion?

Your reason for it being tier 6 is related to DC and not Ap lol

with these justifications? hell no try going back to the drawing board and realize the amount of logical inconsistencies predicated from your arguments

Not with the justifications you presented



Interesting I recall certain servants in the imaginary scramble being said to boast power strong enough to destroy the entire space unless I'm tripping?

Dude wrote an essay.

 

[Theoretical]

Dude wrote an essay.

Sigh it is a curse to be a nasuverse scaler especially in vsbw

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

1. I don't recall any Servants, Beasts, or Gods destroying Avalon.

Tamamo-no-Mae Yes, when I get stronger, I get more tails. But you see... When I get more tails, I become a very different sort of creature than I am now... Yes, I kind of... I become a great demon strong enough to destroy the multiverse. Dr. Roman Y-You get that strong? Tamamo-no-Mae Yes. Understand that this isn't an exaggeration. I become a great demon... ...that is an avatar of the apocalypse itself.

Mash Aaah... Aaaaaahh! That hellish moment continued. As she blocked the heat that would pierce the planet, she thought... She thought of the journey so far and the journey to come. She thought of her past, and of the future she would not be there for.

Meunière Crap, crap, crap! Arjuna's gathering an unbelievable amount of energy around him! Holmes Indeed. The sheer energy for this Noble Phantasm—if it can even be called that—is like nothing I have ever seen. In fact, several of our sensors have been overloaded while trying to measure it...!

Peperoncino Arjuna there is about to destroy and remake everything in this Lostbelt. Dissolution and rebirth... Destruction and reconstruction... Cataclysm and genesis... As the last god of this world, all of that is within his capability. Mash ...Huh? Peperoncino The reason he's taking so long to charge up is because he needs time to gather the ridiculous amount of energy he needs to pull all that off. And if any of us get caught in the destruction and rebirth of this world, we'll end up disappearing completely. One hundred percent, absolutely guaranteed. No recourse, no way out...nothing. Holmes That's quite difficult to believe. But, if that enormous mass of energy were to keep growing at an accelerated rate...I suppose it's not impossible... But then, if that's true, what happens to the world after it's been recreated? What about the life-forms? Peperoncino I'll fill you in on that later! Right now, I'm just answering Fujimaru's question of how far we need to run! So now that you know, I'm sure you can figure out what you have to do to avoid a massive Noble Phantasm capable of destroying the entire world, right?

Orion Apparently, it's called “Shooting Star Ortygia: You, Gold That Pierces Planets.”

??? Shooting Star Ortygia The light converged on a single point, transforming into an enormous arrow. ...No, it wouldn't be fitting to call it an arrow. This was a weapon designed to shoot down intergalactic vessels. A weapon created to tear through entire planets. An Anti-Planet Noble Phantasm.

2. Nothing suggests that the texture that sits on top of the Earth (where humans live and Mystery has died out in PHH) is Low 1-C.

The Surface Texture isn't the justification for Low 1-C. Are you not informed of the scaling that got accepted? If not, then it was probably a bad idea and a bad look to start those CRTs.

3. Outer Gods have no connection to any other beings in the Nasuverse (they have manifested in the foriegner class, but what I'm referring to is the Outer Gods themselves). There is no reason to scale Grands, Beasts, and Gods to them.

So you acknowledge higher dimensional scaling for Outer Gods specifically, but seemingly don't acknowledge them for other beings, like non-Outer Gods?

4. None of the Ultimate Ones have Low 1-C feats either. Being the strongest being of a planet (or other celestial body) doesn't equate to being able to destroy the planet.

Here is an example of an Ultimate One destroying a planet:

 

[Theoretical]

None of the Ultimate Ones have Low 1-C feats either. Being the strongest being of a planet (or other celestial body) doesn't equate to being able to destroy the planet.

Didn't even see this and some of the other shit cause I was speed running just so I can continue reading up on neoplatonism but you should probably catch up to lb 7 part 1 bro lmao

 

[MaxLevel_King]

I don't think that answers what he says but where's the basis for BB being nerfed to beatable levels I only recall them referring to kiara like that not bb before battle mmc servants were said to be equal in authority to bb and even in the bad ending when the mmc servant dies they say "even tho they matched her in battle capability" she still beat the mmc servant atleast that's how it went down in gilgameshs route lol

Didn't it specifically say doesn't know ab the origin itself not the power of the origin?

(1)the mooncell exists inside the moon and has 1-C realities to which you agreed upon
(2)clearly the moon itself is abnormal for containing a structure capable of creating 1-C realities
(3)the authority of the sun itself was shown to supersede that of the mooncell because authorities of the sun>that of the moon inside of the realities simulated by the mooncell which you agreed that is 1-C (so the argument that its not as powerful as it is outside of the mooncell doesn't work because it clearly surpasses it even within the mooncell itself
(C)given the fact that the moon itself is abnormal and the sun itself supersedes that the sun itself should be abnormal
(5)therefore calling a character out to be on the level of the sun within the nasuverse is not inconsistent rather gaven the context is infact consistent
C Sun level characters within the nasuverse can't be possible lesser than 1-C based on them being said to be equal to an already abnormal celestial body

(if you wish to ignore that, bb explicitly says battles that take place in the mooncell hold just as much significance in the real world, the experience and battle power gained in the mooncell can still be held outside of the mooncell and the mooncell can affect material objects outside of itself)

Too bad so sad the simulated realities haven't been distinguished from the actual realities infact much of the evidence points at the simulated realities holding just as much of a significance as material object that exist outside of the mooncell and the realities outside of the mooncell itself


Doesn't mean they can't be destroyed considering the world does a pretty good job at minimizing the damage to just being "affected" and not "destroyed"
If there's a statement x can do p but b hinders x from doing P it doesn't mean x can't do P if b didn't hinder it initially that's an invalid inference

Uhh k

This argument would hold some significance if the narrative itself didn't suggest that it can destroy not just affect like seriously do you enjoy using Selective interpretation or is it a matter of lack of critical thinking skills?

Ap≠DC what you're talking ab is DC you're acting like Excalibur is an anti world noble phantasm even tho when unsealed it has power output/Ap in this case on the level of some anti-world noble phantasms and superior to some

Your justifications for that don't seem sufficient in guaranteeing the truth value of such a conclusion

You're gonna have to refute R>F higher dimensions if you wish to say grands, gods and beasts scale to low 1-C because if you let that hold then them being low 1-C damn near stays consistent lol

Lol

That's fine alot of verses in this wiki have high tier characters from chain scaling if it appears consistent there's nothing wrong with that I disagree with tier 6 you failed to defend that adequately

Why are you using that than you say you know she's stronger than that makes it damn near insignificant it's like saying I know I'm being disingenuous for mentioning this but I will anyways loool

Kama chains scales to kiara your second point is fine I don't think nobody here is insane enough to suggest that servants scale to Kama

When

You haven't defend her not being low 1-C adequately we'll dismiss this

Arjuna alters noble phantasm scales to karnas noble phantasm/armor which can negate the mooncells authority (inside of the mooncell itself which you agree is 1-C) so?

Chain scales above arjuna

Probably because servants normally aren't ftl this just demonstrates the difference between servants and gods/grands huh

So you ignore context to support your conclusion?

Your reason for it being tier 6 is related to DC and not Ap lol

with these justifications? hell no try going back to the drawing board and realize the amount of logical inconsistencies predicated from your arguments

Not with the justifications you presented



Interesting I recall certain servants in the imaginary scramble being said to boast power strong enough to destroy the entire space unless I'm tripping?

This is an origin that even the person themselves, in this case, Gilgamesh, can never know. The farthest point that became the cause of the birth of the entity known as Gilgamesh. In other words, zero.[15]
^
Where does that state that the Origin is Gilgamesh's power in life?

1. The simulated realities within the Moon Cell are Low 1-C, the Moon Cell itself (ie the supercomputer) isn't Low 1-C. Claiming that the supercomputer is Low 1-C because of it's simulated realities is like claiming that IRL computers are Low 1-C because of the internet (don't get hung up on the "Low 1-C" part, you get the analogy I'm trying to make).

2. The Moon itself isn't special, the Moon Cell on it is.

3. Real World 4-C > Simulated Low 1-C

4. No. Refer to points 2 and 3.

5. This argument falls apart as the Moon isn't a Low 1-C structure, and the Moon Cell on the Moon isn't a Low 1-C structure. What is Low 1-C are the simulated realities within the Moon Cell.

6. However similar to actual reality the simulated realities are, the fact is that they are still just simulations. No Low 1-C feats have occurred in the real world either.

7. You're arguing as if there's proof that they can be destroyed when no feats or statements suggest this.

8. I literally stated that I didn't say they couldn't be destroyed. You directly replied to my statement so how did you miss that? I only stated that being "Anti-" doesn't mean that you can destroy, but that you're effective against. They still might be able to destroy that thing, but it isn't a guarantee.

9. Nothing suggests that Quetzecoatl or Gorgon's NP are above Tier 6 in AP or DC. You're reaching.

10. I used the hydrogen bomb statement because it's still relevant to Tiamat's power. Why would the energy output of a Low 1-C being be compared to a mere hydrogen bomb when Low 1-C is supposed to be infinities above that?

11. Kama is the antithesis to Kiara because of her nature as "Giving love to all" vs Kiara's nature of "Taking all love into herself". She shouldn't be scaled to Kiara merely because they have opposing natures. Kama doesn't have Low 1-C feats comparable to Moon Cell Kiara.

12. Wonky scaling at work. Karna hasn't demonstrated Low 1-C feats outside of the Moon Cell.

13. More wonky scaling.

14. Only being FTL doesn't support Grands being Low 1-C.

15. No, the context (feats and statements) doesn't support your conclusion.

16. Again, nothing suggests their NP's are superior to Tier 6 in either AP or DC.

17. I don't remember the INS part, but if that's true, then it's worthy of being discussed as well.

 

[MaxLevel_King]

Tamamo-no-Mae Yes, when I get stronger, I get more tails. But you see... When I get more tails, I become a very different sort of creature than I am now... Yes, I kind of... I become a great demon strong enough to destroy the multiverse. Dr. Roman Y-You get that strong? Tamamo-no-Mae Yes. Understand that this isn't an exaggeration. I become a great demon... ...that is an avatar of the apocalypse itself.

Mash Aaah... Aaaaaahh! That hellish moment continued. As she blocked the heat that would pierce the planet, she thought... She thought of the journey so far and the journey to come. She thought of her past, and of the future she would not be there for.

Meunière Crap, crap, crap! Arjuna's gathering an unbelievable amount of energy around him! Holmes Indeed. The sheer energy for this Noble Phantasm—if it can even be called that—is like nothing I have ever seen. In fact, several of our sensors have been overloaded while trying to measure it...!

Peperoncino Arjuna there is about to destroy and remake everything in this Lostbelt. Dissolution and rebirth... Destruction and reconstruction... Cataclysm and genesis... As the last god of this world, all of that is within his capability. Mash ...Huh? Peperoncino The reason he's taking so long to charge up is because he needs time to gather the ridiculous amount of energy he needs to pull all that off. And if any of us get caught in the destruction and rebirth of this world, we'll end up disappearing completely. One hundred percent, absolutely guaranteed. No recourse, no way out...nothing. Holmes That's quite difficult to believe. But, if that enormous mass of energy were to keep growing at an accelerated rate...I suppose it's not impossible... But then, if that's true, what happens to the world after it's been recreated? What about the life-forms? Peperoncino I'll fill you in on that later! Right now, I'm just answering Fujimaru's question of how far we need to run! So now that you know, I'm sure you can figure out what you have to do to avoid a massive Noble Phantasm capable of destroying the entire world, right?

Orion Apparently, it's called “Shooting Star Ortygia: You, Gold That Pierces Planets.”

??? Shooting Star Ortygia The light converged on a single point, transforming into an enormous arrow. ...No, it wouldn't be fitting to call it an arrow. This was a weapon designed to shoot down intergalactic vessels. A weapon created to tear through entire planets. An Anti-Planet Noble Phantasm.

The Surface Texture isn't the justification for Low 1-C. Are you not informed of the scaling that got accepted? If not, then it was probably a bad idea and a bad look to start those CRTs.


So you acknowledge higher dimensional scaling for Outer Gods specifically, but seemingly don't acknowledge them for other beings, like non-Outer Gods?


Here is an example of an Ultimate One destroying a planet:

1. For one, even if Tamamo said that she wasn't exaggerating, I don't think it's reasonable to just accept that statement at face-value. Her being able to destroy the multiverse would scale her above pretty much every other Beast we've seen, including Goetia. However, Goetia's NP can only pierce through the Planet, and Amaterasu is stated to be equal to Goetia. On top of that, "multiverse" is "three thousand worlds" in other translations, and the two translations suggest different levels of power.

2. Piercing through the planet isn't a Low 1-C feat on it's own. Was it capable of piercing the planet all the way though, or just the surface? Those are two completely different scales of destruction yet they both mean "pierce through the planet".

3. Arjuna Alter destroying the Indian Texture (World) isn't a Low 1-C feat. He's literally destroying a texture of the planet, not the planet itself.

4. Artemis' NP being Anti-Planet doesn't mean that it can destroy Earth in particular. We know that the Earth has Avalon within the Reverse Side of the World, we don't know if other planets have something similar.

5. I somehow forgot about ORT destroying the planet in that vision. That being said, that doesn't mean that all Ultimate Ones are capable of destroying the planet. The most important point is that there's no justification for Servants, Beasts, and Gods to scale to ORT, except the one of course.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

1. For one, even if Tamamo said that she wasn't exaggerating, I don't think it's reasonable to just accept that statement at face-value. Her being able to destroy the multiverse would scale her above pretty much every other Beast we've seen, including Goetia. However, Goetia's NP can only pierce through the Planet, and Amaterasu is stated to be equal to Goetia. On top of that, "multiverse" is "three thousand worlds" in other translations, and the two translations suggest different levels of power.

You are free to have your opinions, but merely thinking that she was exaggerating when she said she wasn't exaggerating isn't persuasive.

You see, other characters would scale to Amaterasu or above her, therefore they get the same rating.
Piercing through the planet is accepted as Low 1-C.

They only suggest different levels of power if stripped from the context of Nasuverse terminology. Do you believe we should discard the official translation, if so then why?

2. Piercing through the planet isn't a Low 1-C feat on it's own. Was it capable of piercing the planet all the way though, or just the surface? Those are two completely different scales of destruction yet they both mean "pierce through the planet".

It is in the context of Nasuverse cosmology, the context we are using. The Textures cover the planet; merely piercing the planet at all means that it is Low 1-C and is capable of easily piercing the planet all the way through.

3. Arjuna Alter destroying the Indian Texture (World) isn't a Low 1-C feat. He's literally destroying a texture of the planet, not the planet itself.

Able to destroy everything in the Lostbelt. Lostbelts have Avalon, therefore a Low 1-C feat.

4. Artemis' NP being Anti-Planet doesn't mean that it can destroy Earth in particular. We know that the Earth has Avalon within the Reverse Side of the World, we don't know if other planets have something similar.

The chapter takes place on planet Earth in particular.

Other planets (and even non-planet 'celestial bodies' like the Oort Cloud) have wills of their own, similar to Gaia, and they operate on their own different concepts and laws (for example, not having 'laws of physics'). That is the whole premise of the Ultimate Ones arriving on Earth:

Spoiler: Notes.

Just when I was about to leave the city, I got caught by a messenger of the military. Someone must have remembered an old story from 5 years ago and enlisted me in this mission. When I returned to my room to pick up the Black Barrel that I left to rot, the Angel was still there. "Are you going to fight that?" "Looks like it. The Knights are assembling too, and the military's eager to do it. They're aiming to at least change the Cross's course. If that's it, then the possibility isn't zero" "It's impossible. Everyone doesn't understand what an Aristoteles is. That isn't a life form on this planet. There is no, chance of winning." "How could that be? In reality, we have already defeated 3 Aristoteles. If we have more fire power than them, it's not an unstoppable opponent" "I don't know about that. They can't be judged by this planet's common sense. That's why even a concept of death doesn't exist for them. They won't stop until they achieved their objective." "Objective? You guys had such thing?" "Yes. It's not our own objective but we do. They arrived here to fulfill the wish of this planet. ...This planet died by the influence of the life forms that lived on it. The planet itself doesn't have a feeling of grief. Even perishing by the influence of its own life forms is "All right". A planet only carries a will; it carries no meaning. " But there was an exception. The planet is able to forgive it because the life forms follow the same fate as the planet. But the human species were able to live on, even on the dead land. This planet was frightened by the existence that kept on living on top of its death, and cried out for help at its end. Please, wipe out the life forms that are still alive." "...I see. So that's who you guys were" When I muttered that, the Angel said no, as she shook her head. "The only ones who were able to hear the cry of the planet, were also planets. I, no, we were the highest ranking species of those planets who received the will of this planet. For example, The Aristoteles that was called the Heaven's Corpse... what I used to be, was the most superior individual on Venus." "Wha...t?' Without knowing, I lost my breath. Our enemy were species that ruled over the alien branches of another planet, where our common sense doesn't apply. The strongest life form on a planet, was in other words, the planet itself. The human species who survived on this planet, to put it simple, were fighting 8 planets.

And they contain beings capable of destroying Earth.

5. I somehow forgot about ORT destroying the planet in that vision. That being said, that doesn't mean that all Ultimate Ones are capable of destroying the planet. The most important point is that there's no justification for Servants, Beasts, and Gods to scale to ORT, except the one of course.

Don't particularly care about specific scaling to ORT, but I agree that destroying the planet is Low 1-C. Something those below ORT are capable of doing.

 

[Theoretical]

This is an origin that even the person themselves, in this case, Gilgamesh, can never know. The farthest point that became the cause of the birth of the entity known as Gilgamesh. In other words, zero.[15]
^
Where does that state that the Origin is Gilgamesh's power in life?

Never said that

1. The simulated realities within the Moon Cell are Low 1-C, the Moon Cell itself (ie the supercomputer) isn't Low 1-C

This honestly appears to be some mathematically inept represention of how dimensions work if there's a set containing R^8 how would it be below its own elements

Claiming that the supercomputer is Low 1-C because of it's simulated realities is like claiming that IRL computers are Low 1-C because of the internet (don't get hung up on the "Low 1-C" part, you get the analogy I'm trying to make).

False equivalence irl computers can't physically contain low 1-C structures also displayed narrative consistency suggesting that there's no significant distinction between those worlds in the mooncell and the irl worlds but in fact on several occasions the world's are said to be almost indistinguishable lool

Real World 4-C > Simulated Low 1-C

Falls apart when you realize the simulated worlds are nearly indistinguishable from real worlds this isn't even a refutation do you enjoy trolling?

The Moon itself isn't special, the Moon Cell on it is.

The moon is for containing a structure that contains low 1-C realities

No. Refer to points 2 and 3.

Not a refutation again

This argument falls apart as the Moon isn't a Low 1-C structure, and the Moon Cell on the Moon isn't a Low 1-C structure. What is Low 1-C are the simulated realities within the Moon Cell.

I repeat it is mathematically incoherent to suggest that a set containing elements equivalent to low 1-C would be inferior to the elements themselves you also failed to once again attack several instances that derive from the source material attesting for the simulated realities to be nearly indistinguishable from real realities and chose headcanon

However similar to actual reality the simulated realities are, the fact is that they are still just simulations.

Not a refutation and begging the question once again

No Low 1-C feats have occurred in the real world either.

Maybe because the world doesn't allow for that to happen? Oh wow it's not like this isn't recursively emphasized throughout the entire source material but of course maxlevel king would ignore that

You're arguing as if there's proof that they can be destroyed when no feats

This doesn't even correlate to what I said neither does it attack my point once again

statements suggest this.

No correlation to what I said

I literally stated that I didn't say they couldn't be destroyed. You directly replied to my statement so how did you miss that? I only stated that being "Anti-" doesn't mean that you can destroy, but that you're effective against. They still might be able to destroy that thing, but it isn't a guarantee

The source material consistently reiterating isn't supposed to be a guarantee? What do you think is gonna be the guarantee then?

Also if you want to answer this genuinely you cannot refer to "there are no low 1-C feats" again because this has been addressed

Nothing suggests that Quetzecoatl

Chain scale

Gorgon's NP are above Tier 6 in AP or DC

I don't even think she's above that in the wiki what's your point?

I used the hydrogen bomb statement because it's still relevant to Tiamat's power. Why would the energy output of a Low 1-C being be compared to a mere hydrogen bomb when Low 1-C is supposed to be infinities above that?

In that same statement you said you know she's above that
P ∧ ¬P
P=tiamat is comparable to a hydrogen bomb in energy output
¬P=tiamat is above a hydrogen energy output

How do you affirm P yet still say you know ¬P holds which is clearly a logical contradiction on your part unless you're trying to be disingenuous seems to in the blood of everyone attempting these downgrade threads

Kama is the antithesis to Kiara because of her nature as "Giving love to all" vs Kiara's nature of "Taking all love into herself". She shouldn't be scaled to Kiara merely because they have opposing natures.

Kiara states that even if she got her Power back she's not sure that she could kill her and do you play Walmart fgo it's clearly stated they're power fluctuates if one gets weaker one gets stronger if they're all strong they should be equal therefore her being antithesis to kiara is evidently applicable to her power aswell read the source material before attempting downgrade threads

Kama doesn't have Low 1-C feats comparable to Moon Cell Kiara.

Her being above her standard self later on which was an antithesis to kiara is a low 1-C feat for her unless you think narrative actions constitute as statements not feats nonetheless this isn't a refutation unless you want to debunk dragon ball supers "whis" because he is superior goku but has no universal feat now do you?

Wonky scaling at work. Karna hasn't demonstrated Low 1-C feats outside of the Moon Cell.

Not a refutation you fail to provide evidence for these realities being distinguishable from real world realities furthermore your argument is clearly mathematically inconsistent you're still claiming a set containing elements of itself can be inferior to the elements it contains (mathematically inept statements)

More wonky scaling

Not a refutation?

Only being FTL doesn't support Grands being Low 1-C.

Never said it supports them being low 1-C you should re-read what I said again I said it merely demonstrates the difference between servants and gods

No, the context (feats and statements) doesn't support your conclusion.

(1)i made inferences
(2)inferences are predicated from the source material as basis for the inferences themselves
C if my inferences are predicated contain statements predicated from the source material, then necessarily the context which is the source material supports my conclusions

Next?

Again, nothing suggests their NP's are superior to Tier 6 in either AP or DC.

-provides statements
-no I want feats
-questions his logic
-comes back again no no there's nothing that suggest X
If you say nothing suggests x I provide a statement which is "something" and something is that which is necessarily "not nothing"

Therefore something is not nothing Therefore statements are something

Are you done now?

I'll exterminate this nonsensical trent of attempts at nasuverse downgrading with outright horrid arguments for that nobody is gonna stay to witness this everytime it's becoming annoying

 

[MaxLevel_King]

You are free to have your opinions, but merely thinking that she was exaggerating when she said she wasn't exaggerating isn't persuasive.

You see, other characters would scale to Amaterasu or above her, therefore they get the same rating.
Piercing through the planet is accepted as Low 1-C.

They only suggest different levels of power if stripped from the context of Nasuverse terminology. Do you believe we should discard the official translation, if so then why?


It is in the context of Nasuverse cosmology, the context we are using. The Textures cover the planet; merely piercing the planet at all means that it is Low 1-C and is capable of easily piercing the planet all the way through.


Able to destroy everything in the Lostbelt. Lostbelts have Avalon, therefore a Low 1-C feat.


The chapter takes place on planet Earth in particular.

Other planets (and even non-planet 'celestial bodies' like the Oort Cloud) have wills of their own, similar to Gaia, and they operate on their own different concepts and laws (for example, not having 'laws of physics'). That is the whole premise of the Ultimate Ones arriving on Earth:

Spoiler: Notes.

Just when I was about to leave the city, I got caught by a messenger of the military. Someone must have remembered an old story from 5 years ago and enlisted me in this mission. When I returned to my room to pick up the Black Barrel that I left to rot, the Angel was still there. "Are you going to fight that?" "Looks like it. The Knights are assembling too, and the military's eager to do it. They're aiming to at least change the Cross's course. If that's it, then the possibility isn't zero" "It's impossible. Everyone doesn't understand what an Aristoteles is. That isn't a life form on this planet. There is no, chance of winning." "How could that be? In reality, we have already defeated 3 Aristoteles. If we have more fire power than them, it's not an unstoppable opponent" "I don't know about that. They can't be judged by this planet's common sense. That's why even a concept of death doesn't exist for them. They won't stop until they achieved their objective." "Objective? You guys had such thing?" "Yes. It's not our own objective but we do. They arrived here to fulfill the wish of this planet. ...This planet died by the influence of the life forms that lived on it. The planet itself doesn't have a feeling of grief. Even perishing by the influence of its own life forms is "All right". A planet only carries a will; it carries no meaning. " But there was an exception. The planet is able to forgive it because the life forms follow the same fate as the planet. But the human species were able to live on, even on the dead land. This planet was frightened by the existence that kept on living on top of its death, and cried out for help at its end. Please, wipe out the life forms that are still alive." "...I see. So that's who you guys were" When I muttered that, the Angel said no, as she shook her head. "The only ones who were able to hear the cry of the planet, were also planets. I, no, we were the highest ranking species of those planets who received the will of this planet. For example, The Aristoteles that was called the Heaven's Corpse... what I used to be, was the most superior individual on Venus." "Wha...t?' Without knowing, I lost my breath. Our enemy were species that ruled over the alien branches of another planet, where our common sense doesn't apply. The strongest life form on a planet, was in other words, the planet itself. The human species who survived on this planet, to put it simple, were fighting 8 planets.

And they contain beings capable of destroying Earth.


Don't particularly care about specific scaling to ORT, but I agree that destroying the planet is Low 1-C. Something those below ORT are capable of doing.

1. Goetia and Amaterasu were stated to be equals, other Beasts scale to Goetia, and Goetia's NP could only pierce through the planet.

2. If both translations are viable, then the "multiverse" translation makes no sense. Even if the Earth is considered a multiversal structure, Tamamo stated that she can destroy the multiverse (including the Earth), not the (multiversal structure) Earth itself. If Amaterasu is capable of destroying a multiverse, then that would make her vastly superior to every other God, Beast, and Grand in the series. On top of that, I remember the "three thousand worlds" translation having a religious context, rather than being literal. Something to do with three thousand worlds in Buddhism? I forgot.

3. Piercing through the Earth's top texture into the Planet itself (which is literally piercing through the planet) doesn't mean piercing through Avalon as well. Avalon is literally inside of the planet, so the planet being pierced through doesn't mean that Avalon was as well.

4. Not all Lostbelts have Avalon. It wasn't stated that was the case either. The only Lostbelt we know of that has Avalon (and likely the only Lostbelt to have Avalon) is the British Lostbelt. Avalon literally has a direct connection with Britain, so it makes sense that it's under Britain. You're treating Avalon as if it's everywhere under the Earth's top texture when that isn't the case.

5. Other Planets having a will doesn't equate to them having a dimensional space within them similar to Avalon. However foriegn the laws and concepts of these other Planets are, that doesn't guarantee that they're the same tier as the Earth.

6. Back to my point about there being no feats of Grands, Beasts, or Gods destroying Avalon.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Never said that

This honestly appears to be some mathematically inept represention of how dimensions work if there's a set containing R^8 how would it be below its own elements

False equivalence irl computers can't physically contain low 1-C structures also displayed narrative consistency suggesting that there's no significant distinction between those worlds in the mooncell and the irl worlds but in fact on several occasions the world's are said to be almost indistinguishable lool

Falls apart when you realize the simulated worlds are nearly indistinguishable from real worlds this isn't even a refutation do you enjoy trolling?

The moon is for containing a structure that contains low 1-C realities

Not a refutation again

I repeat it is mathematically incoherent to suggest that a set containing elements equivalent to low 1-C would be inferior to the elements themselves you also failed to once again attack several instances that derive from the source material attesting for the simulated realities to be nearly indistinguishable from real realities and chose headcanon

Not a refutation and begging the question once again

Maybe because the world doesn't allow for that to happen? Oh wow it's not like this isn't recursively emphasized throughout the entire source material but of course maxlevel king would ignore that

This doesn't even correlate to what I said neither does it attack my point once again

No correlation to what I said

The source material consistently reiterating isn't supposed to be a guarantee? What do you think is gonna be the guarantee then?

Also if you want to answer this genuinely you cannot refer to "there are no low 1-C feats" again because this has been addressed

Chain scale

I don't even think she's above that in the wiki what's your point?

In that same statement you said you know she's above that
P ∧ ¬P
P=tiamat is comparable to a hydrogen bomb in energy output
¬P=tiamat is above a hydrogen energy output

How do you affirm P yet still say you know ¬P holds which is clearly a logical contradiction on your part unless you're trying to be disingenuous seems to in the blood of everyone attempting these downgrade threads

Kiara states that even if she got her Power back she's not sure that she could kill her and do you play Walmart fgo it's clearly stated they're power fluctuates if one gets weaker one gets stronger if they're all strong they should be equal therefore her being antithesis to kiara is evidently applicable to her power aswell read the source material before attempting downgrade threads

Her being above her standard self later on which was an antithesis to kiara is a low 1-C feat for her unless you think narrative actions constitute as statements not feats nonetheless this isn't a refutation unless you want to debunk dragon ball supers "whis" because he is superior goku but has no universal feat now do you?

Not a refutation you fail to provide evidence for these realities being distinguishable from real world realities furthermore your argument is clearly mathematically inconsistent you're still claiming a set containing elements of itself can be inferior to the elements it contains (mathematically inept statements)

Not a refutation?

Never said it supports them being low 1-C you should re-read what I said again I said it merely demonstrates the difference between servants and gods

(1)i made inferences
(2)inferences are predicated from the source material as basis for the inferences themselves
C if my inferences are predicated contain statements predicated from the source material, then necessarily the context which is the source material supports my conclusions

Next?

-provides statements
-no I want feats
-questions his logic
-comes back again no no there's nothing that suggest X
If you say nothing suggests x I provide a statement which is "something" and something is that which is necessarily "not nothing"

Therefore something is not nothing Therefore statements are something

Are you done now?

I'll exterminate this nonsensical trent of attempts at nasuverse downgrading with outright horrid arguments for that nobody is gonna stay to witness this everytime it's becoming annoying

I had some time to read this with the loading screen of the game (my worst enemy in fate go) and after read your post I also noticed how he said matematically incorrect thing like your P ∧ ¬P example, or for example how he claims that the Moon Cell isn't tier 1 despite create and contain tier 1 things which if my discrete matemathics class were right is matemathically impossible because a set can't be smaller than its elements (the same way a house can't be smaller than the people inside or its parts like the bathroom), so yeah, from a matematical point of view he is wrong on top of the power scaling and understanding of the verse itself.

 

[MaxLevel_King]

Never said that

This honestly appears to be some mathematically inept represention of how dimensions work if there's a set containing R^8 how would it be below its own elements

False equivalence irl computers can't physically contain low 1-C structures also displayed narrative consistency suggesting that there's no significant distinction between those worlds in the mooncell and the irl worlds but in fact on several occasions the world's are said to be almost indistinguishable lool

Falls apart when you realize the simulated worlds are nearly indistinguishable from real worlds this isn't even a refutation do you enjoy trolling?

The moon is for containing a structure that contains low 1-C realities

Not a refutation again

I repeat it is mathematically incoherent to suggest that a set containing elements equivalent to low 1-C would be inferior to the elements themselves you also failed to once again attack several instances that derive from the source material attesting for the simulated realities to be nearly indistinguishable from real realities and chose headcanon

Not a refutation and begging the question once again

Maybe because the world doesn't allow for that to happen? Oh wow it's not like this isn't recursively emphasized throughout the entire source material but of course maxlevel king would ignore that

This doesn't even correlate to what I said neither does it attack my point once again

No correlation to what I said

The source material consistently reiterating isn't supposed to be a guarantee? What do you think is gonna be the guarantee then?

Also if you want to answer this genuinely you cannot refer to "there are no low 1-C feats" again because this has been addressed

Chain scale

I don't even think she's above that in the wiki what's your point?

In that same statement you said you know she's above that
P ∧ ¬P
P=tiamat is comparable to a hydrogen bomb in energy output
¬P=tiamat is above a hydrogen energy output

How do you affirm P yet still say you know ¬P holds which is clearly a logical contradiction on your part unless you're trying to be disingenuous seems to in the blood of everyone attempting these downgrade threads

Kiara states that even if she got her Power back she's not sure that she could kill her and do you play Walmart fgo it's clearly stated they're power fluctuates if one gets weaker one gets stronger if they're all strong they should be equal therefore her being antithesis to kiara is evidently applicable to her power aswell read the source material before attempting downgrade threads

Her being above her standard self later on which was an antithesis to kiara is a low 1-C feat for her unless you think narrative actions constitute as statements not feats nonetheless this isn't a refutation unless you want to debunk dragon ball supers "whis" because he is superior goku but has no universal feat now do you?

Not a refutation you fail to provide evidence for these realities being distinguishable from real world realities furthermore your argument is clearly mathematically inconsistent you're still claiming a set containing elements of itself can be inferior to the elements it contains (mathematically inept statements)

Not a refutation?

Never said it supports them being low 1-C you should re-read what I said again I said it merely demonstrates the difference between servants and gods

(1)i made inferences
(2)inferences are predicated from the source material as basis for the inferences themselves
C if my inferences are predicated contain statements predicated from the source material, then necessarily the context which is the source material supports my conclusions

Next?

-provides statements
-no I want feats
-questions his logic
-comes back again no no there's nothing that suggest X
If you say nothing suggests x I provide a statement which is "something" and something is that which is necessarily "not nothing"

Therefore something is not nothing Therefore statements are something

Are you done now?

I'll exterminate this nonsensical trent of attempts at nasuverse downgrading with outright horrid arguments for that nobody is gonna stay to witness this everytime it's becoming annoying

1. Because the elements aren't real, they're virtual. If the Moon Cell contained actual physical realities within itself instead of virtual ones, then you'd have a point to make.

2. You're equating virtual realities being indistinguishable from actual reality to mean that they're just as real as the actual reality when that's not what that means. Being indistinguishable from something doesn't mean actually being that thing.

3. Refer to point 2.

4. Containing Low 1-C virtual realities.

5. I repeat, you're equating virtual realities indistinguishable from actual reality to mean that they're just as real as the actual reality.

6. You're falling behind the "Gaia won't allow for itself to be destroyed" argument as a shield to reason why Low 1-C beings in the Moon Cell are supposedly still Low 1-C outside of the Moon Cell when no feats or statements suggest as such. On top of that, Gaia isn't omnipotent.

7. I know that Tiamat scales above a hydrogen bomb, but I don't think that she scales anywhere close to Low 1-C. Her energy output being compared to a hydrogen bomb isn't consistent with her supposedly being Low 1-C, because again, a Low 1-C being should be infinites above a hydrogen bomb. Suppose that Low 1-C beings can still have feats way lower than Tier 1(ie hydrogen bomb), then that supports the point I made in my CRT that Servants should still have calcs above merely 5-B.

8. I don't think that Beast Kiara is as strong as Moon Cell Kiara, so Kama still shouldn't scale to Moon Cell Kiara (Low 1-C).

9. Refer to points 2 and 5.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

1. Goetia and Amaterasu were stated to be equals, other Beasts scale to Goetia, and Goetia's NP could only pierce through the planet.

Could pierce through the Low 1-C planet, and erase the entire human history timeline. Wow. Looks like the scaling is justified and collaborated.

2. If both translations are viable, then the "multiverse" translation makes no sense. Even if the Earth is considered a multiversal structure, Tamamo stated that she can destroy the multiverse (including the Earth), not the (multiversal structure) Earth itself. If Amaterasu is capable of destroying a multiverse, then that would make her vastly superior to every other God, Beast, and Grand in the series. On top of that, I remember the "three thousand worlds" translation having a religious context, rather than being literal. Something to do with three thousand worlds in Buddhism? I forgot.

"three thousand worlds" is a literal translation of 'Trichiliocosm', which is the word used and is a Buddhist concept. In the context of Nasuverse, trichiliocosm is a word that means a multiverse with parallel timelines. It is explained in Suzuka Gozen's profile:

Sanzen Daisensekai: EX A skill that would normally be a Noble Phantasm. This skill represents trichiliocosm, a concept that explains the Buddhist cosmology and understanding of the multiverse. When the morning light reflects upon Suzuka Gozen's beloved sword Kenmyouren, the Sanzen Daisensekai appears. Various worlds and even parallel worlds can be created within the sword and be witnessed there. ...The meaning behind all of this is something that Suzuka Gozen never speaks about. If used for a long period time, her rights as a Heroic Spirit are stripped away.

So yes, the 'multiverse' translation is valid and succinctly accurate. Amaterasu can destroy the multiverse.
The official translators actually know their stuff, and often pick up on references that early fan translations missed.

3. Piercing through the Earth's top texture into the Planet itself (which is literally piercing through the planet) doesn't mean piercing through Avalon as well. Avalon is literally inside of the planet, so the planet being pierced through doesn't mean that Avalon was as well.

Nope. The real planet is literally a big rock, covering that rock is the Reverse Side of the World with Avalon being its deepest part, and above that is the Surface Texture.
Read up on the source material first:

Spoiler: Garden of Avalon

"Merlin, I listen to you obediently as you speak the truth, but could you please stop referring to people as if they're lumps of iron?" "My apologies. Next up is the Holy Lance. Rather than defeating foreign enemies, its purpose is to stabilise the planet... or to be more specific, anchor it. The Fairy Kingdom you mentioned earlier isn't in a completely different world. It is right beneath you, in the Reverse Side of the World that is separated from us by merely a thin sheet.” "Beneath me, you say... You mean underground?" "You can think of it that way. Essentially, beneath the foundation that is 'your world', there exists a gap which is the 'Fairy Kingdom', with the Earth's surface underneath. The Fairy Kingdom and your world are both nothing more than layers. Textures. Each of them are outward appearances attached to the Earth's surface.” "Textures... So you mean Britain?" "Not just Britain, it encompasses the entire world. In fact, Britain is pretty special. Artoria, what you can see with your eyes isn't everything. When you humans attained the Seat of Primacy, the fairies foresaw that the state of the planet would change, and accepted it. The planet alters its physical laws according to the beings that live on its surface. As such, the era that was brimming with arcana and magical energy began to decline gradually upon humans becoming the greatest power. Gods, nature in the possession of personalities, became mere natural phenomena, and the ether in the air dispersed. The passing of Solomon, the King of Magecraft, accelerated this decline of the arcane. And five hundred years ago, the Age of Gods finally came to an end. This planet became independent of nature, its ownership passed on to animals that could survive even outside of the natural cycle. Yes, to put it in simple terms, you humans. The intelligence... or the mentality that humans had acquired was directed towards illuminating the darkness of 'uncertain laws'. As a result, the planet's rules were altered to become 'laws that best suit human life'. Both dragons and fairies are infringements of this rule. Because of that, they left to inhabit the Reverse Side of the World, ceding the surface to you. The only ones remaining are those who lacked the power to migrate or those who refused to accept their end. The former are harmless but the latter pose a grave threat to humans. These powerful individuals are able to survive despite the loss of the magical energy in the air, with the potential of being threats to mankind for centuries. Anyway, you've become the representatives of this planet. But still, it's just a thin layer that can easily be peeled away. When you have a piece of cloth about to be blown away by the wind, what do you do? Leave it as it is? Obviously not. You pin it so that it doesn't come undone. The Holy Lance is what anchors the texture of the human world to the planet. The lance that shines at the world's end. The pillar that protects the primates, the Holy Lance Rhongomyniad."

4. Not all Lostbelts have Avalon. It wasn't stated that was the case either. The only Lostbelt we know of that has Avalon (and likely the only Lostbelt to have Avalon) is the British Lostbelt. Avalon literally has a direct connection with Britain, so it makes sense that it's under Britain. You're treating Avalon as if it's everywhere under the Earth's top texture when that isn't the case.

Nope. Avalon is part of Earth's history; we know it continues to exist despite divergence from PHH.

The things distinguishing Britain is that island nations maintained an Age of Gods for longer and thus Mystery influenced Britain up till King Arthur, that Merlin reached Avalon, and that Albion will eventually begin establishing a gateway to Avalon.
None of those events many thousands of years later are relevant here.

5. Other Planets having a will doesn't equate to them having a dimensional space within them similar to Avalon. However foriegn the laws and concepts of these other Planets are, that doesn't guarantee that they'reo the same tier as the Earth.

Contains and controls creatures that can destroy Earth. They scale above Earth, and Artemis is equipped to destroy planets.
Per the materials, ORT "...Actually, might not really be the strongest life form that received Earth's SOS sign." So ORT's power is not an anomaly.

6. Back to my point about there being no feats of Grands, Beasts, or Gods destroying Avalon.

Your objection is based on ignorance of Nasuverse cosmology. But as it is established, you can't destroy the planet without destroying Avalon.

 

[Peak]

My bro tried Maou and failed, Nasu and failed, now he will go for Tensura.... @Peak be ready

Multi planetary Rimuru is getting closer

 

[Theoretical]

Because the elements aren't real, they're virtual. If the Moon Cell contained actual physical realities within itself instead of virtual ones, then you'd have a point to make.

Suppose we have a person from race B and a person from race A
They're both humans and exemplify properties that any human share such as being mortal

If the question is, is this person from race B a mortal because he's a human the answer would be yes right? Despite having differences in race they're both humans therefore the properties they exemplify that makes them indistinguishable from other humans such as being mortal is that one property that we find to be of importance within some discussion P

Now suppose there's a reality with the magnitude of R^6 and a virtual reality of R^6 if one is a virtual reality and the other one is a real space if they both exemplify the properties of what a genuine higher dimensional space is mathematically

Why would it being a virtual disprove it being low 1-C?

I can abuse you for the whole day now let's continue sir

You're equating virtual realities being indistinguishable from actual reality to mean that they're just as real as the actual reality when that's not what that means. Being indistinguishable from something doesn't mean actually being that thing.

Never once did I say it's the same thing they exemplify similar properties as such if there's a low 1-C reality and the virtual world exemplifies properties of a real space low 1-C world them being the same wouldn't matter much as we do not care for minor differences like names (one being called virtual the other real space)

Refer to point 2.

Not a refutation

Containing Low 1-C virtual realities

Not a refutation

I repeat, you're equating virtual realities indistinguishable from actual reality to mean that they're just as real as the actual reality.

Again not a refutation I don't have to explain metaphysics to you now if one object exemplifies similar properties of another object in this case it being properties of a low 1-C world minor differences like "virtual world" and "real space"is damn near insignificant can you be a little bit more creative in forming those refutations you're starting to become like a DVD that repeats itself

You're falling behind the "Gaia won't allow for itself to be destroyed" argument as a shield to reason why Low 1-C beings in the Moon Cell are supposedly still Low 1-C outside of the Moon Cell when no feats or statements suggest as such.

Yes and it's explained why such feats can't be performed this isn't a refutation

Gaia isn't omnipotent.

If Gaia/K is necessarily above P than her being omnipotent holds no bearing if k can still negate attacks from P through necessity because K holds authority that supersedes P not a refutation

I know that Tiamat scales above a hydrogen bomb,

Therefore your argument is a logical contradiction you agreed i suppose then we have no need to return to the argument suggesting that she's hydrogen bomb level

Her energy output being compared to a hydrogen bomb isn't consistent with her supposedly being Low 1-C, because again, a Low 1-C being should be infinites above a hydrogen bomb.

You said its not hydrogen level therefore you cannot use the hydrogen level statement if you already believe it to be false as means to justify your conclusion it'll contain internal inconsistencies

then that supports the point I made in my CRT that Servants should still have calcs above merely 5-B.

It doesn't your arguments are horrid

I don't think that Beast Kiara is as strong as Moon Cell Kiara, so Kama still shouldn't scale to Moon Cell Kiara (Low 1-C).

I don't think you exist, therefore you don't exist

Your argument is the equivalent of that, everyone thinks to move everyone thinks to make statements,everyone thinks to perform any action and everyone thinks to think

To say think X therefore X is indirectly begging the question again just because you think X is the case doesn't justify X being the case neither does it arbitrarily makes X true

Not a refutation

Refer to points 2 and 5.

Not a refutation

I had some time to read this with the loading screen of the game (my worst enemy in fate go) and after read your post I also noticed how he said matematically incorrect thing like your P ∧ ¬P example, or for example how he claims that the Moon Cell isn't tier 1 despite create and contain tier 1 things which if my discrete matemathics class were right is matemathically impossible because a set can't be smaller than its elements (the same way a house can't be smaller than the people inside or its parts like the bathroom), so yeah, from a matematical point of view he is wrong on top of the power scaling and understanding of the verse itself.

Correct

 

[Theoretical]

Now I'll sleep it seems like you're running out of arguments this is beginning to bore me I'll see If you respond tomorrow

 

[MaxLevel_King]

Could pierce through the Low 1-C planet, and erase the entire human history timeline. Wow. Looks like the scaling is justified and collaborated.


"three thousand worlds" is a literal translation of 'Trichiliocosm', which is the word used and is a Buddhist concept. In the context of Nasuverse, trichiliocosm is a word that means a multiverse with parallel timelines. It is explained in Suzuka Gozen's profile:

Sanzen Daisensekai: EX A skill that would normally be a Noble Phantasm. This skill represents trichiliocosm, a concept that explains the Buddhist cosmology and understanding of the multiverse. When the morning light reflects upon Suzuka Gozen's beloved sword Kenmyouren, the Sanzen Daisensekai appears. Various worlds and even parallel worlds can be created within the sword and be witnessed there. ...The meaning behind all of this is something that Suzuka Gozen never speaks about. If used for a long period time, her rights as a Heroic Spirit are stripped away.

So yes, the 'multiverse' translation is valid and succinctly accurate. Amaterasu can destroy the multiverse.
The official translators actually know their stuff, and often pick up on references that early fan translations missed.


Nope. The real planet is literally a big rock, covering that rock is the Reverse Side of the World with Avalon being its deepest part, and above that is the Surface Texture.
Read up on the source material first:

Spoiler: Garden of Avalon

"Merlin, I listen to you obediently as you speak the truth, but could you please stop referring to people as if they're lumps of iron?" "My apologies. Next up is the Holy Lance. Rather than defeating foreign enemies, its purpose is to stabilise the planet... or to be more specific, anchor it. The Fairy Kingdom you mentioned earlier isn't in a completely different world. It is right beneath you, in the Reverse Side of the World that is separated from us by merely a thin sheet.” "Beneath me, you say... You mean underground?" "You can think of it that way. Essentially, beneath the foundation that is 'your world', there exists a gap which is the 'Fairy Kingdom', with the Earth's surface underneath. The Fairy Kingdom and your world are both nothing more than layers. Textures. Each of them are outward appearances attached to the Earth's surface.” "Textures... So you mean Britain?" "Not just Britain, it encompasses the entire world. In fact, Britain is pretty special. Artoria, what you can see with your eyes isn't everything. When you humans attained the Seat of Primacy, the fairies foresaw that the state of the planet would change, and accepted it. The planet alters its physical laws according to the beings that live on its surface. As such, the era that was brimming with arcana and magical energy began to decline gradually upon humans becoming the greatest power. Gods, nature in the possession of personalities, became mere natural phenomena, and the ether in the air dispersed. The passing of Solomon, the King of Magecraft, accelerated this decline of the arcane. And five hundred years ago, the Age of Gods finally came to an end. This planet became independent of nature, its ownership passed on to animals that could survive even outside of the natural cycle. Yes, to put it in simple terms, you humans. The intelligence... or the mentality that humans had acquired was directed towards illuminating the darkness of 'uncertain laws'. As a result, the planet's rules were altered to become 'laws that best suit human life'. Both dragons and fairies are infringements of this rule. Because of that, they left to inhabit the Reverse Side of the World, ceding the surface to you. The only ones remaining are those who lacked the power to migrate or those who refused to accept their end. The former are harmless but the latter pose a grave threat to humans. These powerful individuals are able to survive despite the loss of the magical energy in the air, with the potential of being threats to mankind for centuries. Anyway, you've become the representatives of this planet. But still, it's just a thin layer that can easily be peeled away. When you have a piece of cloth about to be blown away by the wind, what do you do? Leave it as it is? Obviously not. You pin it so that it doesn't come undone. The Holy Lance is what anchors the texture of the human world to the planet. The lance that shines at the world's end. The pillar that protects the primates, the Holy Lance Rhongomyniad."

Nope. Avalon is part of Earth's history; we know it continues to exist despite divergence from PHH.

The things distinguishing Britain is that island nations maintained an Age of Gods for longer and thus Mystery influenced Britain up till King Arthur, that Merlin reached Avalon, and that Albion will eventually begin establishing a gateway to Avalon.
None of those events many thousands of years later are relevant here.


Contains and controls creatures that can destroy Earth. They scale above Earth, and Artemis is equipped to destroy planets.
Per the materials, ORT "...Actually, might not really be the strongest life form that received Earth's SOS sign." So ORT's power is not an anomaly.


Your objection is based on ignorance of Nasuverse cosmology. But as it is established, you can't destroy the planet without destroying Avalon.

1. I had a misconception about where Avalon was located. Now that you cleared that up, I concede.

2. I concede here as well.

3. I concede.

4. I'm aware that Avalon continues to exist on the Earths that the Lostbelts come from. However, the Lostbelts themselves aren't the entire Earth, but regions of the Earth with their own texture stitched onto the PHH bleached Earth. These textures are their own worlds, but they don't include the rest of the Earth. Avalon isn't under India, so it wouldn't be a part of the Indian Lostbelt. Avalon is under Britain, which is why its a part of the British Lostbelt.

5. ORT not being the strongest Ultimate One doesn't mean that all other Ultimate Ones are capable of destroying the Earth. As for Artemis' Anti-Planet NP, we still don't know if other planets have something similar to Avalon.

6. I concede.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I heard one of bb’s abilities only works on stuff that is from earth.

curious to see if it would work on GER considering stand arrows are definitely not from earth.

 

[MaxLevel_King]

Suppose we have a person from race B and a person from race A
They're both humans and exemplify properties that any human share such as being mortal

If the question is, is this person from race B a mortal because he's a human the answer would be yes right? Despite having differences in race they're both humans therefore the properties they exemplify that makes them indistinguishable from other humans such as being mortal is that one property that we find to be of importance within some discussion P

Now suppose there's a reality with the magnitude of R^6 and a virtual reality of R^6 if one is a virtual reality and the other one is a real space if they both exemplify the properties of what a genuine higher dimensional space is mathematically

Why would it being a virtual disprove it being low 1-C?

I can abuse you for the whole day now let's continue sir

Never once did I say it's the same thing they exemplify similar properties as such if there's a low 1-C reality and the virtual world exemplifies properties of a real space low 1-C world them being the same wouldn't matter much as we do not care for minor differences like names (one being called virtual the other real space)

Not a refutation

Not a refutation

Again not a refutation I don't have to explain metaphysics to you now if one object exemplifies similar properties of another object in this case it being properties of a low 1-C world minor differences like "virtual world" and "real space"is damn near insignificant can you be a little bit more creative in forming those refutations you're starting to become like a DVD that repeats itself

Yes and it's explained why such feats can't be performed this isn't a refutation

If Gaia/K is necessarily above P than her being omnipotent holds no bearing if k can still negate attacks from P through necessity because K holds authority that supersedes P not a refutation

Therefore your argument is a logical contradiction you agreed i suppose then we have no need to return to the argument suggesting that she's hydrogen bomb level

You said its not hydrogen level therefore you cannot use the hydrogen level statement if you already believe it to be false as means to justify your conclusion it'll contain internal inconsistencies

It doesn't your arguments are horrid

I don't think you exist, therefore you don't exist

Your argument is the equivalent of that, everyone thinks to move everyone thinks to make statements,everyone thinks to perform any action and everyone thinks to think

To say think X therefore X is indirectly begging the question again just because you think X is the case doesn't justify X being the case neither does it arbitrarily makes X true

Not a refutation

Not a refutation

Correct

1. False equivalency. You're equating two real people with a physical reality (real) and a virtual reality (not real).

2. One reality being virtual and the other being real isn't a minor difference. The Moon Cell's simulated realities aren't a part of the real world which is why the Moon Cell itself isn't Low 1-C.

3. It doesn't matter if a simulation exhibits Low 1-C properties as the simulation isn't a part of the real world.

4. What are examples of Gaia protecting itself from Low 1-C threats?

5. Refer to point 4.

6. I wasn't suggesting that she's hydrogen bomb level. I was suggesting that since Tier 1 is infinities above hydrogen bomb level, it shouldn't be possible for her output to only be hydrogen bomb level when that is infinitely weaker than what she should be capable of at base.

7. Moon Cell Kiara feats > Beast Kiara feats.

 

[Dereck03]

Max Level_King conceded

Automatically me

 

[Iiliminal]

all that just for goku to solo fiction

 

[KLOL506]

@CrimsonStarFallen

 

[God900]

Someone close this thread please

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Someone close this thread please

After this thread he is Coming for Tensura to wank it

 

[Robo432343]

12. It's completely true.

nice argument

 

[Theoretical]

1. False equivalency. You're equating two real people with a physical reality (real) and a virtual reality (not real).

2. One reality being virtual and the other being real isn't a minor difference. The Moon Cell's simulated realities aren't a part of the real world which is why the Moon Cell itself isn't Low 1-C.

3. It doesn't matter if a simulation exhibits Low 1-C properties as the simulation isn't a part of the real world.

4. What are examples of Gaia protecting itself from Low 1-C threats?

5. Refer to point 4.

6. I wasn't suggesting that she's hydrogen bomb level. I was suggesting that since Tier 1 is infinities above hydrogen bomb level, it shouldn't be possible for her output to only be hydrogen bomb level when that is infinitely weaker than what she should be capable of at base.

7. Moon Cell Kiara feats > Beast Kiara feats.

Didn't even refute anything

 

[God900]

Didn't even refute anything

At this point we should just call Crimson and yeet this....

 

[KLOL506]

At this point we should just call Crimson and yeet this....

LMFAO you too slow, you got ninja'd, be better

 

[God900]

LMFAO you too slow, you got ninja'd, be better

Damn..........you are a Ninja, too fast

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

LMFAO you too slow, you got ninja'd, be better

i do have a question tho regarding this
1.Why do we scale GO kiara to fate extra kiara? Wasn't there a statement of GO kiara being weaker then Extra kiara or something?
2.Why does tiamat have immeasurable speed because of her higher dimensionality, didn't she take days to reach uruk?

 

[KLOL506]

i do have a question tho regarding this
1.Why do we scale GO kiara to fate extra kiara? Wasn't there a statement of GO kiara being weaker then Extra kiara or something?
2.Why does tiamat have immeasurable speed because of her higher dimensionality, didn't she take days to reach uruk?

Why are you asking me? I'm not the FATE expert, @Paul_Frank and @CrimsonStarFallen are.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

1.Why do we scale GO kiara to fate extra kiara? Wasn't there a statement of GO kiara being weaker then Extra kiara or something?

Her mats state this, but it is directly contradicted by the story. Already discussed a billion times, moving on.

2.Why does tiamat have immeasurable speed because of her higher dimensionality, didn't she take days to reach uruk?

Anti-Feats exist, and that never made sense given one of Tiamat's skills is teleportation with multiversal range. Already discussed a billion times, moving on.

Someone close this thread please

Yeah. Dude got what he asked, he argued his points, and nobody agrees. Ignore the fact that I already said several times before that these threads will be closed and he just kept making threads after already being rejected.