Sephiroth downgrade.

[Lunacorva]

A lot of the powerscaling for Sephiroth and Final Fantasy VII in general is based around his Supernova attack which destroys the Solar System. However, I believe this power should be considered a hax or even an outlier/inconsistency for three reasons.

1) Despite the fact that this attack supposedly destroys a Solar System, The earth they're fighting on is undamaged, and at no point in the game's story is there ever mention of Sephiroth causing so much damage.

2) He can use the attack multiple times. Does the Solar System just reform itself between uses? It seems very unlikely that this attack is meant to be taken literally.

3) Despite being able to survive Supernova (Which, if we take it literally, would put Cloud and all his companions at Solar System level durability). Cloud can be hurt and even killed by basic law enforcement and wildlife. Are we seriously suggesting that basic wildlife have Solar System level attack potency?

 

[Promestein]

Like summons, Supernova teleports them to a pocket universe, which it destroys. In addition, basic wildlife and law enforcement harming Cloud is obviously PIS. That's basic debating knowledge.

 

[Reppuzan]

Here we go again...

1) Ultimania states that Summons and attacks like Super Nova drag the targets into an alternate pocket realm in order to execute the attack. In addition, you're abusing absurdism and an inability to suspend a sense of disbelief. By this logic, virtually every fantasy and sci-fi video game character would need to be downgraded since they can't destroy their surroundings due to game mechanics.

2) See 1.

3) Game mechanics yet again. Put it this way, Mario can be harmed by touching anything that is not friendly. Do we downgrade him to Below Average Human level then? No, because you're once again stretching the limits of absurdism.

 

[Lunacorva]

Like summons, Supernova teleports them to a pocket universe, which it destroys. In addition, basic wildlife and law enforcement harming Cloud is obviously PIS. That's basic debating knowledge.

Do we know that he is teleporting them to a pocket universe, or is that merely a fan theory?

Also, for the PIS argument, the losses to basic wildlife happens in MULTIPLE fights, whereas the Supernova attack happens only once. If one were to determine which of the two cases was the outlier, I think it would be the one with far more precedent.

Also, thinking about it more, Sephiroth's whole plan was to gather enough Black Materia to destroy the planet. So it makes absolutely no sense that he would have a Solar System level attack, if destroying a planet was something he needed a doomsday device to accomplish.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Inb4 flower level Kirby.

In all seriousness, I was going to say "^this", but both of them covered it to a T, so, yeah.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Lunacorva

Dude, characters vastly weaker than Sephiroth can easily bust moons and flip planets around with little effort.

Then there's the fact that you're still abusing game mechanics despite having this debunked. The only reason why they're able to hurt them is because of game mechanics.

Authors are exceedingly ignorant of their characters' own power much of the time. The fact that Sephiroth "needed" the Black Materia is just a means of getting the plot moving even though he's much stronger than characters who have displayed greater feats.

 

[Reppuzan]

As for the teleporting thing, it was in the official databook, so it's certainly not a fan theory.

 

[Lunacorva]

"By this logic, virtually every fantasy and sci-fi video game character would need to be downgraded since they can't destroy their surroundings due to game mechanics."

There's a difference between a weakness in the game's animation budget (which explains things like supposedly Wall busting attacks not destroying the surrounding area. And an attack who's power completely contradicts the game's plot.

Again, if he has a Solar System level attack, why does he need a doomsday device just to destroy one planet?

 

[Reppuzan]

Finish reading my second statement.

It's a plot device through and through. Authors don't know how powerful they're making their characters, and we often have to go against authorial intent based on their actual feats.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

3) Despite being able to survive Supernova (Which, if we take it literally, would put Cloud and all his companions at Solar System level durability). Cloud can be hurt and even killed by basic law enforcement and wildlife. Are we seriously suggesting that basic wildlife have Solar System level attack potency?
Yup, just like how LITERALLY EVERY GAME CHARACTER EVER can be killed by the weakest enemy. Guess Mario, Sonic, Bayonetta, Dante, Kirby, and literally anyone else from a video game who can be damaged by the first enemy they encounter should be downgraded to 10-C to 10-B...

 

[Lunacorva]

"Authors are exceedingly ignorant of their characters' own power much of the time. The fact that Sephiroth "needed" the Black Materia is just a means of getting the plot moving even though he's much stronger than characters who have displayed greater feats." You realise the flaw in that logic, right? You're essentially arbitrarily picking and choosing what you WANT to see as canon and what you want to discard. Basically, whether or not it's an outlier is based solely on what YOU beleive. "I think that Supernova is canon and the Black Materia plot is an outlier because... I beleive that the Supernova is canon and the Black Materia plot is an outlier."

 

[Reppuzan]

@Lunacorva

We take canon feats and translate them into stats. Whether or not the author knows how strong or fast they're making their characters is not our problem.

We generally judge characters by their best showings, and the thought of using completely and utter game mechanics (which have been refuted numerous times) is absolutely nonsensical.

 

[Lunacorva]

But "Supernova" is a game mechanic. You're being very inconsistent with your logic.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Lunacorva

It's a canon attack and Sephiroth's canon Limit Break. Unless you mean to say that every attack used in video games is "game mechanics".

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

How on earth is Supernova a game mechanic? That's like saying that any RPG character who can do an attack that's calc worthy is a game mechanic. Guilty Gear would be downgraded in speed, and other stuff of that sort.

 

[Lunacorva]

"Unless you mean to say that every attack used in video games is "game mechanics"."

Well... yes.

How are they not?

"Soldier uses attack: 'shoot face with gun.'"

This is a game mechanic, does not count.

"Sephiroth uses attack: 'Supernova'"

This is not a game mechanic. Does count.

Both of them are attacks so why is one attack a "Game mechanic" and the other not?

Also, how exactly are you defining "canon"?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

...Youre honestly arguing that every attack a game should be considered nothing more than game mechanics...?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Lunacorva

Oh sure, let's make every character 9-C since clearly every attack ever used by anyone is a plot device with no use as a feat.

Canon is if it is an integral part of the story and/or would realistically happen 9/10 during a boss fight. Considering the fact that Super Nova is his signature attack and that he's coded to use it against the heroes, then it's more than likely that they were forced to tank it in order to survive.

 

[Lunacorva]

No, I'm saying that attacks ARE game mechanics. So it's nonsensical to ignore some and count others.

But if any of you can explain to me how a game attack is NOT a game mechanic, I'm willing to listen. But right now, there's a gaping hole in your logic.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Lunacorva

There's a difference between something absolutely absurd (bullets hurting someone who has tanked attacks that obliterate moons and flip planets) and something that's within the realm of possibility (i.e. tanking Sephiroth's attacks while fighting him).

 

[Lunacorva]

"Canon is if it is an integral part of the story"

Weren't you the one saying earlier to ignore an integral part of the story?

Or do you not count the "Central conflict" as an "Integral part of the story"?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Lunacorva

When a character has better feats, we don't scale them off worse feats. Superman has punched dinosaurs and pushed stars. Which one do we scale his stats off?

 

[Lunacorva]

So we scale a character to their strongest feat?

 

[Promestein]

To the strongest feats that aren't absolutely absurd, yes. Given the planetary to stellar scale of many other feats in Final Fantasy, this is not absurd for Sephiroth.

The absurd end here is scaling Sephiroth to some random guy with a gun.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Lunacorva

As long as it's within the realm of reason (i.e. not Batman kicking a higher-dimensional being like The Spectre in the face) then yes.

 

[Lunacorva]

Also, I can agree with Cloud and the others being above Street level (or even Continent level)

But when a game attack. (Which yes, IS a game mechanic), contradicts an "Integral part of the story" and your only defense is

"Oh, the writer's an idiot, he doesn't know what he's talking about"

Something that could be used to defend ANY argument, watch:

"The animator for Supernova is an idiot, he doesn't know what he's talking about."

Then your argument really doesn't have a leg to stand on at this point.

 

[Lunacorva]

@Lunacorva
As long as it's within the realm of reason (i.e. not Batman kicking a higher-dimensional being like The Spectre in the face) then yes.

Define: "Within the realm of reason."

 

[Reppuzan]

@Lunacorva

You're joking.

There's a reason why we take author statements with a grain of salt. For example, the author of the Boundary of Emptiness stated that a character with completely control over the fabric of the universe and can destroy and recreate on a whim cannot defeat characters who top out at Large Planet level. In the same vein, The Presence is supposedly omnipotent, but later gets injured and nearly killed by Gabriel Hornblower one of his own creations who certainly should not have been able to hurt him if he was actually omnipotent. He also passes his title to a young girl, who also becomes "omnipotent".

Authors are a primary source, but we cannot take everything they say as they say it since it frequently contradicts with actual feats, the latter of which are the lifeblood of this site and basic debating.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Lunacorva

Within the realm of reason means exactly what I explained it to be. If it's consistent with his other showings (as is the case with Final Fantasy VII and its numerous Planetary and Stellar beings, with even weaker beings like Typhoon being able to flip the planet and Bahamut Fury who blasts apart Moons with his Exaflare attack).

It's not Batman suddenly being able to hurt someone who is beyond infinitely stronger than him.

 

[Lunacorva]

To the strongest feats that aren't absolutely absurd, yes. Given the planetary to stellar scale of many other feats in Final Fantasy, this is not absurd for Sephiroth.
The absurd end here is scaling Sephiroth to some random guy with a gun.

As I said:

"Also, I can agree with Cloud and the others being above Street level (or even Continent level)"

Please read what I'm actually saying. It'll make this discussion go a lot more smoothly.

 

[Lunacorva]

Okay, I'm convinced.

I was wrong.

Thank you for clearing that up.