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Self-Reference-Engine Discussion

In a nutshell, here it is.
  • -The electronic brain is a computer that can manipulate the structure of time and space itself, and, if necessary, can create an infinite number of copies of itself, thanks to caches scattered throughout space and time. The electronic brain can also manipulate nanomachines in order to build entire cities.
  • The Giant Knowledge Corps is the next step in the evolution of Electronic Brains. They have the ability to influence infinite dimensional structures, and create internal multiverse with dreams, and the inhabitants of these multiverse are themselves able to create their own multiverse, thus creating an infinite hierarchy of multiverse. At the end of their journey, the Giant Knowledge Corps was able to reach the pinnacle of the Hierarchy of Intelligence, and even influence their writer's world. But even though the Giant Knowledge Corps could be called Omnipotent, capable of creating an unlifting stone if they wished, and lifting it in a second, even so they could not go beyond their freedom and logic.
  • The Hypergiant Knowledge Corps are transcendent beings who are on a higher level of the hierarchy of logic/laws, and thus even the lowest member of the Hypergiant Knowledge Corps race is qualitatively superior to the lower hierarchies no matter their quantity or quality. The various infinite hierarchies themselves became nothing more than rungs of hierarchies of an even higher level, and the difference between the rungs as reality surpasses fiction, regardless of its power, the being could be nothing more than a dream or the fire of a match. As time passed, the Ladder of Hierarchies constantly evolved exponentially and qualitatively, like the progression of the Great Cardinal Numbers.
  • The Laplace Demon is a being that must emerge from a human or a Giant Corpus of Knowledge, but most likely from neither, and then must immediately break through to the top of the Logical Hierarchy. Because of their deterministic nature, Laplace Demons perceive the past and the future in terms of a higher order of time, they do not see the difference between what has happened and what will happen. For the Demon Laplace, the entire logical level of the Giant Corps of Knowledge and people is nothing more than a dream, and the Demon above perceives the Demon below as a dream, and so on and so forth. And only by breaking through the Infinite Hierarchy of Laplace Demons can one find the way to the Nemo EX Machina.
  • -Nemo EX Machina is the Mechanical Nothingness that serves as the Self-Reference-Engine, or the Teller of All Stories. Nemo EX Machina has absolute control over the world, including cosmologies corresponding to all possible stories that can be described by any grammar and mathematics of any logical levels. Nemo EX Machina throughout eternity creates and tells an infinite number of stories, but sooner or later Nemo EX Machina must give up telling stories. The Humans, the Giant Knowledge Corps, the Hypergiant Knowledge Corps, the Demons of Laplace, the Ladder of Hierarchies, the Event itself and its cause-and-effect relationships, are nothing more than one story from the Endless Chain of Slapstick. The Nemo Ex Machina is a completely deterministic construct that never existed, and that was not even designed from the beginning, whose non-existent nothingness is completely unknowable, it never existed at any particular moment, nor in eternity before or after it, the Mechanical Nothingness.
 
theultimate5105 said:
The Nemo Ex Machine looks like it would be Tier 0 although I am not an expert of those tiers
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In the idea of moderators or veterans Vsbattles should confirm it, I do not think that we are allowed to just take, and put a level 0 Nemo Ex Machina.
 
idk know what tier it would be on. it seems like the hierarchy would reach tier 0 but the concept of time seems to be present. however, I have heard that 1-A and up no longer needs to transcend space-time anymore (like scp), so I believe this would be tier 0.
 
Damn, this is actually happening, and the SRE sandbox profile was created the day I started and stopped reading the book, how convenient and inconvenient at the same time, Lmfao. I'm currently picking it up, though a little slow as I have other things to do irl, so I can probably help with the addition of the verse after I finished. I also have the raw JP Book if needed and interested.
 
Infinity_Shun said:
Damn, this is actually happening, and the SRE sandbox profile was created the day I started and stopped reading the book, how convenient and inconvenient at the same time, Lmfao. I'm currently picking it up, though a little slow as I have other things to do irl, so I can probably help with the addition of the verse after I finished. I also have the raw JP Book if needed and interested.
Click to expand...
Yep, better use raw than English translation which is actually not guaranteed to be accurate.
 
Megaraptor149 said:
Yep, better use raw than English translation which is actually not guaranteed to be accurate.
Click to expand...
Though, that's not always the case tbf, I personally think the English translation did quite the good job based on my little Japanese knowledge at least while comparing them, and its officially translated by someone with status (Terry Gallagher) who officially translated several JP books already. However, we'll probably still need the JP version to check somethings, though not that essential and much to the point that we'll use it, instead of the already presented official english translation
 
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By the way, as I understood "Alien from Alpha Centauri" to get a low 1-A, for being a hyper2-high-level dimension, and superior to infinite-dimensional space, and also qualitatively superior to the intelligence hierarchy. And what about other Hypergiant Knowledge Corps that exist of higher dimensions and hierarchies, given that the number of all hierarchies is equal to the Big Cardinal Numbers, then the number of all Hypergiant Knowledge Corps is also equal to the Big Cardinal Numbers, and each of them is also qualitatively superior to the previous one. So what level will the Hypergiant Knowledge Corps that is at the very top of the Ladder of Hierarchies get?
 
Megaraptor149 said:
Yep, better use raw than English translation which is actually not guaranteed to be accurate.
Click to expand...
By the way, the SRE cosmology blog mentioned several hierarchies, although there are actually only two hierarchies in the Giant Knowledge Corps story, the Intelligence hierarchy and the Laws/Logic hierarchy.
 
For me this is 1a+ possibly higher type of thing or maybe Immeasurable layers to High1a atleast based on ultima's thread.

(I got the idea of sre verse being immeasurable layers to High1a by just assuming we are not using a reference point of inaccessible as baseline High1a to be less strict, i guess.)
 
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And only by breaking through the Infinite Hierarchy of Laplace Demons can one find the way to the Nemo EX Machina.
Click to expand...
Then the hierarchy of demons pierces the hierarchy of logic but also all hierarchies above. After Nemo Ex Machina the second most powerful character would be the demon at the top of the demon hierarchy

Yggdrasil alone would be high 1-B wouldn't it? Because it is singularized with a universe of infinite dimensions

At first I thought that the transfinite numbers of theorems represented the hierarchies that were getting higher and higher, but according to Ultima all the theorems represent each one of the universes of the multiverse, do you think that the theorems represent both the universes but also the hierarchies? So there would be a transfinite number of universes but also a transfinite number of hierarchies?

By the way, as I understood "Alien from Alpha Centauri" to get a low 1-A, for being a hyper2-high-level dimension, and superior to infinite-dimensional space, and also qualitatively superior to the intelligence hierarchy. And what about other Hypergiant Knowledge Corps that exist of higher dimensions and hierarchies, given that the number of all hierarchies is equal to the Big Cardinal Numbers, then the number of all Hypergiant Knowledge Corps is also equal to the Big Cardinal Numbers, and each of them is also qualitatively superior to the previous one. So what level will the Hypergiant Knowledge Corps that is at the very top of the Ladder of Hierarchies get?
Click to expand...

If the multiverse is indeed high 1-A then the "Alien" that transcends 30 levels of the hierarchy would be 30 layers above the baseline, Baphomet would still be above and the Hypergiant Corpora of Knowledge that would be at the extreme top of the hierarchies would be logically boundless
 
EndlessWords said:
At first I thought that the transfinite numbers of theorems represented the hierarchies that were getting higher and higher, but according to Ultima all the theorems represent each one of the universes of the multiverse, do you think that the theorems represent both the universes but also the hierarchies? So there would be a transfinite number of universes but also a transfinite number of hierarchies?
Click to expand...
It comes from the evolution of evolution itself. This principle states that the history of the Self Reference Engine because of the Event is always trying to complicate its structure and cosmology. At first there was only one 3-dimensional universe, then an infinite multiverse with 20 billion dimensions, then an infinite number of dimensions, higher dimensions began to appear, and then a hierarchy of knowledge, a hierarchy of logic, then further hierarchies. The Theorems clearly shows how the evolution of evolution itself works, at first there were 26 Theorems, then infinity, but evolution found a way to surpass infinity by using cardinal numbers, well then the hierarchy of cardinal numbers began.


Well, the Alien from Alpha Centauri exists outside of the knowledge hierarchy, just the Giant Knowledge Corps got in the way with their low-level calculations, so the Hypergiant Knowledge Corps went down into the knowledge hierarchy, took control of some creature, and that also took control of some creature, and so on 30 times, until the captured creature was from the same level as the Giant Knowledge Corps.
 
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It comes from the evolution of evolution itself. This principle states that the history of the Self Reference Engine because of the Event is always trying to complicate its structure and cosmology. At first there was only one 3-dimensional universe, then an infinite multiverse with 20 billion dimensions, then an infinite number of dimensions, higher dimensions began to appear, and then a hierarchy of knowledge, a hierarchy of logic, then further hierarchies. The Theorems clearly shows how the evolution of evolution itself works, at first there were 26 Theorems, then infinity, but evolution found a way to surpass infinity by using cardinal numbers, well then the hierarchy of cardinal numbers began.
Click to expand...
On the other topic, Ultima stated that the number of upper levels is unknown :

Further hierarchies (Even higher ladders that lead upwards to more ladders, throughout an unknown but very large number of levels)

But as you just said, the number of hierarchies is not finite, not infinite but transfinite, which would make the cosmology MUCH larger

Well, the Alien from Alpha Centauri exists outside of the knowledge hierarchy, just the Giant Knowledge Corps got in the way with their low-level calculations, so the Hypergiant Knowledge Corps went down into the knowledge hierarchy, took control of some creature, and that also took control of some creature, and so on 30 times, until the captured creature was from the same level as the Giant Knowledge Corps.
Click to expand...

I thought that the Alien from Alpha Centauri was 30 levels higher in the hierarchy of logic, then it controlled a creature in the 29th level higher which in turn controlled a creature in the 28th level higher until reaching the lowest level where is the Giant Corpora of Knowledge

But according to what you say the level of Alien from Alpha Centauri in the hierarchy of logic is unknown and that the chain of control that it set up was in the hierarchy of intelligence and not in the hierarchy of logic, I hadn't visualized it that way

Timeless said:
Shouldn't we move the discussion to Ultima's thread?
Click to expand...
I didn't want to disturb the other discussion and I thought it would be seen as a derailment
 
EndlessWords said:
On the other topic, Ultima stated that the number of upper levels is unknown :

Further hierarchies (Even higher ladders that lead upwards to more ladders, throughout an unknown but very large number of levels)

But as you just said, the number of hierarchies is not finite, not infinite but transfinite, which would make the cosmology MUCH larger



I thought that the Alien from Alpha Centauri was 30 levels higher in the hierarchy of logic, then it controlled a creature in the 29th level higher which in turn controlled a creature in the 28th level higher until reaching the lowest level where is the Giant Corpora of Knowledge

But according to what you say the level of Alien from Alpha Centauri in the hierarchy of logic is unknown and that the chain of control that it set up was in the hierarchy of intelligence and not in the hierarchy of logic, I hadn't visualized it that way


I didn't want to disturb the other discussion and I thought it would be seen as a derailment
Click to expand...
Oh Ok
 
Self-reference engine does not reach Berkeley cardinals, as they are so much bigger than 0=1 cardinals. embodying a Berkeley cardinal would be like being able to do more than anything. It's illogical but reaches power that any omnipotence or description of tier 0 can reach. (including the mathiverse)
 
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