Sekiro 8-C key

[SpookyShadow]

So Schnee disagrees with it here , what do you think?

 

[Schnee_One]

It was already agreed to be removed, one second

 

[Schnee_One]

And there. We. Go. https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3679033?useskin=oasis

8C was agreed to be removed by the very guy who added 8C

Any arguments to keeping it?

 

[SpookyShadow]

I believe there should be two keys for the reasons stated in my Geralt vs Sekiro thread

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The argument there seems to be: "Lightning is iffy."

How? We see that its legitimate lightning, it comes from the sky in a very visible sense. As far as I know that AP standard is acceptable for manipulating legitimate lightning. I see nothing wrong with keeping 8-C.

 

[M3X_2.0]

.... no one is arguing that

 

[Schnee_One]

What's the point of keeping 8C if there is an 8B feat that they scale too?

 

[SpookyShadow]

Since when you scale to someone by stabbing a completely weak spot? He killed Serpent in Sunken Valley, much later in the game.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

.... no one is arguing that

I'm sorry?

"Because 8-C exists which itself is iffy because lightning"

"It is not that iffy since Genichiro can manipulate a natural lightning bolt and utilize it for attack, but the 8-B feat is still more solid than the 8-C feat and shouldn't be "likely". The tier difference is not large enough to warrant a "varies", so yeah getting rid of the 8-C tier makes sense."

See this sounds like people were arguing that, but maybe I'm wrong and you read the words better than I did?

The only thing said by ovens is...

"I was just following the old format we had. I'm open to just leaving it at 8-B"

Which is wrong, since even with the old value from the Great Serpent, we didn't 1:1 scale him without a lowball because Wolf does kill the Great Serpent...

- while it was wounded

- while it was sleeping

- largely by deathblow, which is minor dura neg (in both scenarios btw, in one he stabs it through the eye, and the next time, through the brain).

...so we can't be 100% certain he perfectly scales to the Great Serpent. Hence the 8-C lowball.

 

[Schnee_One]

Now THAT makes sense

Then again if he can kill the Serpent, who is baseline 8B, while it was wounded, and sleeping with only deathblows, wouldn't downscaling to High 8C make sense?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Mobile ****** everything

 

[SpookyShadow]

So I guess Geralt vs Sekiro gets continued.

 

[Schnee_One]

^Seems like it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So I guess Geralt vs Sekiro gets continued.

isn't this already an incon though

@Schnee

Serpent isn't baseline 8-B, and no, it doesn't make much sense, really. They have the next value at 8-C, why not use that. We don't base all of our scaling around the 8-B calc, it's more just a "he might be this strong", 8-C is "he is probably this strong".

 

[SpookyShadow]

It was, when Geralt's profile was greatly incomplete. Now they have almost the same AP and their own better advantages

 

[Schnee_One]

It was remade actually.

Serpent is 15 Tons, baseline is 11 Tons, that's not exactly baseline but damn close to it.

And you established yourself that Wolf is physically far weaker then the Serpent.

If you want to say "Why not use that" then 8B is pointless and there's no reason for him to have it

 

[M3X_2.0]

Anyway Bambu. We aren't discussing if 8-C via lightning is legit but if it can keep or not because of the 8-B calculation.

It seems to be explained right now but just to make it clear

 

[Schnee_One]

Seems like an 8C lowball is fine, I'm just wondering if we should keep 8B since 8C is a safe lowball and Wolf is clearly much weaker then the Serpent

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Seems like an 8C lowball is fine, I'm just wondering if we should keep 8B since 8C is a safe lowball and Wolf is clearly much weaker then the Serpent

This also holds some issue with me.

- Wolf can pierce the skin of Serpent, even if he is weaker.

- Wolf can survive being rammed by Serpent, albeit barely.

Both tiers should exist, he just downscales from one a slight bit.

 

[Schnee_One]

Define "Slight" a mere 1.5x difference isn't enough to borderline KO Wolf in a single Ram.

Scaling Wolf directly to 8B would imply that he's negligibly weaker then the serpent.

Besides DeathBlows One shot people physically comparable to him and the serpent was much weaker when they fought, so him being 8C but still killing it isn't completely out of the question either.

Honestly I do think At least 8C possibly High 8C makes sense, but solid 8B I have problems with

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Sure, but that's arbitrary. Wolf may or may not scale to the 8-B. He can take hits from the 8-B, just not comfortably.

I'm aware of everything you're mentioning. That's why it is possibly. Not likely or straight up 8-B.

 

[Schnee_One]

I understand, and I'm glad we're in agreement, that said it's the possibility of him being 8B that I am denying

Quite simply, you can't be 8B if a single barely baseline 8B attack can nearly kill you.

At best I think Wolf is possibly High 8C, that's really all I'm saying

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I understand, but we're not in agreement. He harmed an 8-B. You putting arbitrary limitations on it isn't helpful nor legitimate.

 

[Schnee_One]

I didn't put the limitation, everything I just mentioned you have said, if these limitations are arbitrary, then what's even the point of the 8C lowball.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

No.

Never did I say "Sekiro should scale somewhere in the area of 1.5x lower". Because that's an entirely arbitrary distinction to make. And that's my issue with your idea here.

I've explained to you the point. To which you said, "THAT makes sense".

 

[Schnee_One]

Oh, I was just using that as an example, not saying he should directly scale to 1.5x weaker

I used it as an example because you say he scales slightly lower then a near baseline 8B.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

He scales slightly lower than 15.5 tons. We know he can pierce the skin of said 15.5 tons with normal strikes.

 

[Schnee_One]

Oh he can do it with normal strikes? I thought it was only Deathblows?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

IIRC yes and no. He can draw blood from just smacking it but it won't kill it. The important bit of this though is that he shouldn't arbitrarily scale down to the top of the next lowest tier.

 

[Schnee_One]

See

If people didn't tell me that Deathblows are the only thing that can harm it

This whole ******* debate would have been tossed.

I agree to keep as is. And I am closing.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm fine with closing this and will do so but uh

I didn't say deathblows were the only thing that harmed it, you made that up, the deathblow is just what actually kills it.

 

[Schnee_One]

Spooky said that in the previous thread, I didn't make that up.