Scion vs Edelweiss: 5th strongest High 6-A

[Wokistan]

Making matches like this when you're in the middle of your midterms is really not the move but oh well

Sad yellow worm jesus who has no gf vs back pain and no armor

Speed equal

Takes place in Algeria

Scion (Worm): 1 (Hl3 or bust)

Edelweiss (Rakudai Kishi no Cavalry):

Inconclusive:

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

PtV activates and Stilling atomizes Edel way before the fate hax can fully affect Scion.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Waiting for Earl but yeah I tend to think Scion is a bit too haxed for Edel

 

[Promestein]

Is the fate hax something that can be interrupted like that (assuming it's not just flowery bullshit anyways)

 

[Blackcurrant91]

It's basically the moment you attempt to fight a desperado you are fated to die. It's a bit flowery.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

It's not instant, since Edel can stop it before it kills someone, and definitely takes more than a few relative seconds or so to take effect.

 

[Promestein]

Hmm. PtV isn't necessarily Scion's first move, though it's not like it matters when his first move is nuking with Stilling anyways.

 

[Wokistan]

There's also:

• Scion doing basically anything would turn it off as a side effect because Stilling

• Scion has unrestricted PtV while Contessa's version already overrides Thinker powers which includes the likes of Coil

• Scion himself is a major Thinker blind spot

• Scion adapts and develops resistances to things

He had the PtV going in the background to kick in if it was necessary, like to dodge Foil, and I'm pretty sure the Entities were drawing up all their plans using that alongside other precog shards. If the fate could actually do something PtV would probably kick in.

As prom said though, Stilling's just his normal attack.

 

[Promestein]

Edel's Acausality mentions that it prevents precog from working, but Scion's is based on a simulation of the multiverse, so I think it's beyond what Edel's prevented from working. Scion can account for blindspots and simulate her anyways.

 

[Wokistan]

There's also the stupid "how do I beat a thing that's this guy but without the resistances that make you not give me a straight answer"

 

[InfiniteSped]

Does this Scion have that broken mind manip?

 

[Promestein]

No.

 

[Wokistan]

Master/Stranger stuff is on High 4-C, so no. He can Still people's minds but that's not the same thing.

 

[Promestein]

Would Edelweiss' abilities even work properly on Scion anyways? She's just fighting a lump of matter being puppeted from another universe.

 

[Wokistan]

Just found this, so I guess Scion's sometimes passively Still himself? That might also mess with powers.

 

[InfiniteSped]

She seems to massively outspeed him, so if he wins he'd just share a spot with her, right?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

that is not how the strongest list works to my knowledge. Simply being faster puts you in a separate layer of listings for unequalized speed.

 

[Wokistan]

Well I don't think she can actually kill him either, and most of the list seems to assume speed's equal. Being that much faster than him would be a good way to just force him to clap and still absolutely everything anyways.

Glaistig Uaine may be conditionally better than Scion due to versatility and before getting Eidolo she and and Eidolon were able to fight him well enough to force him to actively use PtV, so maybe just "characters from parahumans" but eh

 

[InfiniteSped]

Yeah, they share a spot like "Guy 1 (speed equalized) / Guy 2 (speed unequalized)"

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I'll argue once im back from university, i have several problems with H13's misinformation.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok so I will post quotes once I get home buy for now I will just state things.

1. Yes the fate hax/ death hax is instant though only happens if you decide to fight her in the first place.

2. Since when does precog have tier? I doubt scion has ever seen the fate of someone beyond the casualty system of the world.

3. Flowery language, I've debated against this several times but when it has feats it really stops being flowery language.

4. Can scion deal with knowing he'll die and still willing to fight?

5. Edel is the weakest desprerado in terms of wiki capability. She is the strongest in canon, but Nene, xiaoli and naseem are far better fighters due to actually having abilities outside of being a desperado.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

1: it's not instant if she can stop it before it kills someone.

2: Scion's PtV can predict Entities which are presrnt in infinite universes simultaneously iirc.

3: sadly we have yet to see any fo those feats.

4: he's basically mindless and relies on PtV for everything. So probably.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

1. Nope, it's not a bullet that is fired and then can be stopped. She can just not wish for the person to die. Stella's throat was cut, and she then later stated the only reason she didn't die there was cus Edelweiss had spared her. Then again when stella challenged her again, she was getting cut all over her body and eventually stopped at her throat all because Edelweiss did not wish to kill stella.

2. Ok but that's just range. Not more potent.

3. Stella almost died twice, nene stole stella's movement, Ikki killed Iris and stopped her from running away. Fair enough, 0 feats.

4. That doesn't make sense, if he's truly mindless he should be incapable of acting. He should at least have a consciousness which would still perceive his death as something he'd not want to go for.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

1: So it's instant but can be stopped. What you're saying would make every character in Rakudai have Infinite speed, which is blatantly wrong. It's either instant or stoppable Earl, and the scans you've posted before show the latter.

2: it is in fact potency, and it works on Edel unless you have proof of her acausality working on that scale.

3: Stella was ludicrously outmatched in every way imaginable and the scan you've posted for this doesn't prove whay you say it does. Context please. That's supposidely via Oikage according to his page, which is an entirely sepsrate thing.

4: because robots are entitely unable to do anything ever at all, right? He literally had no personality or desires initially amd only gained them due to slowly becoming an asshole and regaining his memories.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

1. Not...really. It can be held back, not stopped. She never had the intention of killing stella from the beginning (i will post scan below), if she did it would have killed her.

2. That's not potency. I don't know what kind of system has actual potency on seeing the future, but seeing more doesn't make it better. He's seeing the future of many "worlds", but not of something that is beyond the causality of "the world".

3. It was specifically stated to be through fate hax. I gave context on that before but sure. Oikage was used with desperado death hax. He used Oikage against stella, it didn't kill her before. Only when he imbued it with the causation of death against Iris.

4. A robot? So basically programmed actions?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

1: if it was instant Stella would've died the instant the fight started. Case closed. This is impossible to argue.

2: whatever. If you want potency feats, Entities are blindspots to other Thinker powers, including Contessa's nerfed PtV which works on Endbringers iirc, and are described as 4D beings.

3: please repost the scan. Repost please.

4: I don't know the exact context myself, but he literally did nothing but instinctively follow what PtV told him.

 

[Rocker1189]

Isnt PTV based on prediction? How exactly does surpassing causality help with that?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Isnt PTV based on prediction? How exactly does surpassing causality help with that?

Nope

PtV is literally showing the user exactly what to do in order to achieve their goals. Contessa's nerfed one can also use a simulated version of potential blindspots to predict them even though they resist it, and Scion should be able to do that.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

1. You completely missed it, edel had never wished for her death, that's why it didn't happen. She didn't change her mind mid way.

2. Imma wait for prom or wok on that.

3. Sure just lemme do it in collapsibles so that it doesn't take up 3/4 of the thread.

4. Same as 2.

 

[Rocker1189]

Nope

PtV is literally showing the user exactly what to do in order to achieve their goals. Contessa's nerfed one can also use a simulated version of potential blindspots to predict them even though they resist it, and Scion should be able to do that.

Yeah I know what it does I am just talking about it's mechanics which I dont think being acausal helps with.

 

[Wokistan]

1. Scion doing basically anything at all turns it off anyways and he gains resistances to stuff used on him.

2. Pretty sure that extra worlds are beyond one world. There's always the loophole of "how do I beat a guy who's the same as this enemy but doesn't resist precog" if that fails. There's also how he's gonna Still with or without PtV since its tacked on to most things he does.

3. Aren't these characters who lost badly way inferior as is

4.Sure. The cycle is already ******, he doesn't really care anymore. He killed billions and rendered planets uninhabitable literally just because a villain was like "hey man you ever try being a villain?" There's also that death is hardly permenant when you can regen from 4D stores of mass that exist throughout the multiverse and also why are we even assuming scion can br shown these things anyways when he's entirely immune to all the mental powers?

5. Well this ain't that match

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

1. You completely missed it, edel had never wished for her death, that's why it didn't happen. She didn't change her mind mid way.

2. Imma wait for prom or wok on that.

3. Sure just lemme do it in collapsibles so that it doesn't take up 3/4 of the thread.

4. Same as 2.

Whether or not she wanted it is irrelevant due ti how you are saying it works. Repeat after me:

If the ability is instant, Stella would've instantly died.

Fair. Im not really knowledgeable on Worm but i pick up stuff from them.

K

K

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Isnt PTV based on prediction? How exactly does surpassing causality help with that?

If that's the case then yes. Acausality doesn't stop prediction. Skill would, but precoging the multiverse would not be something i can argue against.

So yes if it's prediction it works.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Stella's case

― I am a swordswoman. I do not feel like fighting against an opponent without even picking up a sword. She looked down on Stella with cold eyes. ― ―――― Immediately after, the atmosphere around her burned, the temperature increased. The heat source was, of course,《Crimson Princess》 Stella Vermillion. She was not significant enough to require picking up a sword. Certainly, Edelweiss said so now. That―― ― … What do you mean with that? ― I don't have the intention to speak in a roundabout way. It means exactly that. With all due respect, if it is someone like you――I can kill you just with my eyes. Not using a sword was out of the question. She would certainly kill her with her eyes only. It was impossible. A clear bluff. Being able to do so, Edelweiss said it as if it was natural. Her attitude and affronts――ignited Stella's belligerence. ― If so, I'll make you do it…! Now that she was rejected from the beginning, it was the turn of "the use of force" plan. Without faltering. Stella lowered her center of gravity noticeably and kicked the ground, powerfully jumping forward. Once the first shot was fired, there wasn't either yes or no. She had no choice but to protect herself against possible dangers. Yes, that was her intention. But, one step. Just one step she gave towards Edelweiss, ――In an instant, A strong and blizzard-like cold intuition struck Stella's brain, and she saw it. The inevitability of a tenth of a second in which her limbs and neck were vigorously cut off. ― Kyaaaaaaaaaaahh!?!? She couldn't think of doing an ukemi in this situation. Stella brought her body that tried to get into her reach to the back, but she lost her balance and fell on her backside right there.* TN: Ukemi is the art of falling safely. Her spectacle, seen from beginning to end, was only seen as if she had tripped up and fell down on the lingering snow. But, ― Stella!? That's!? The expression of Ikki, who immediately ran up to her, became pale. Stella immediately noticed the reason of that. ― Ha, ah…! ÒÇ£ÒÇ£ÒÇ£ÒÇ£!? Stella carefully put her hands on the bottom of her neck with a physical unease that ran as pain. Without a moment's delay, a thick and lukewarm sensation wet her palms. It was blood. A laceration in the form of a horizontal line was carved into Stella's neck. ――It was cut off at an ultrahigh speed. No, it wasn't that. Not only《Wings Abreast》had no sword in her hands, she also hadn't done the slightest movement. She was too far from her sword reach. It was not possible. Then, what happened? She didn't know. She didn't know, but she had an idea. She saw a similar phenomenon before, in the match between Ikki and Sara. ― I see…. You created a barrier and stretched a vacuum dislocation around your house, right? Stella inferred as she healed her wounds with the dragon's Regenerationn. ――But, ― No. Not at all. ― !? ― I neither carved a vacuum dislocation nor used an ability. In the first place, my abilities are not suitable for combat. … Speaking of what I did, I just released a bit strengthened bloodlust. ― Y-you're lying! How can you wound the body of the opponent with intimidation only? There was no way that was possible. Edelweiss only nodded to Stella who denied so and said. ― Certainly, it is impossible for normal people. But I am not an ordinary person. The《Blazers》are persons who change their fate with strength. As one of them, I surpassed the limits of the fate given to me and now I am an existence that reached what is beyond the causality surrounding one's star. The explanation for why Stella didn't instantly die but instead was just cut: Because at that moment, Stella herself accepted that it was like that. But her neck was not severed. But why? ――The reason was settled. Because she didn't have the intention to kill Stella from the beginning.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

1. Has he ever gotten resistance to fate hax that works on acausals?

2. They really aren't. I have class mates, they aren't "beyond me", they're on the same level. I didn't get the loophole part.

3. Well, yes and no. They lost badly due to fate hax. Edelweiss never took an action against Stella. I do not see how losing badly allows Nene to stop Stella from moving. Ikki was specifically being overpowered by Iris etc.

4. 4D regen....? And it's not resistance or Immunity to mental powers we're debating. The level of resistance is irrelevant because he would still be perceiving his own death. Nobody's mind haxing him.

5. I can see that, my point was that "Strongest High 6-A", edel isn't the strongest rakudai.

@H13

No...cus edelweiss never wanted to kill stella. Think of it like this, if i shoot you with a gun, i obviously cannot stop the bullet mid way, but i can sure as hell chose not to shoot the damned gun in the first place. The bullet is in this case a might as well be instant thing (cannot be reacted to by us), but i can still choose whether i want to shoot at all.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Dude everything you have said has only hurt your argument. If the ability was instant, Stella would've been decapitated instantly rather than just being cut regardless of what Edel wanted.

It also shows that the ability itself is entirely bunk with the statement that literally says that Stella was not actually cut, but that's neither here nor there.

 

[Wokistan]

1. That doesn't put it on some weird inaccessible level that his power can't adapt to. Pretty sure that some dudes would count as acausal 3 and he can get resistances to powers that work on them anyways but idk if coil was amonf that.

2. They are though? I'm beyond the perimeters of my house if I go outside. I don't see how it's not going to be beyond the world if it's not on it. As for the loophole thing: Contessa dealt with some things resisting her power by basically asking her power "how do I defeat a thing that's exactly the same as this guy but doesn't have its resistances" in the form of her hypothetical mental model, and also just PtV'd at herself to get around resistances before too.

3. Quotes

4. Shards (which he is composed of) are spatially 4 dimensional. They're also locked away in Shardspace which exists across the multiverse. It's that Warrior Hub that he regens from. Forcing someone to pervieve a thing is a form of mindhax, and one that exists in Worm. It's not like Imp or Nice Guy or Mama Mathers are gonna beat Scion. Theres also that he knows he can't actually die and wouldn't really care either way.

5. What makes the others super for vbw

 

[Firephoenixearl]

1. It'd be NLF to assume it would addapt to it.

2. That's not beyond. It's just range. They're still human, not beyond it. They're just further away.

3. You have the stella quotes above.

4. That doesn't make it 4D, at least not the "stronger" version of 4D. It needs to be infinitely stronger than 3D for it to have any of the higher D advantages.

5. They have actual hax outside of desperado hax. Nene has dimensional BFR. Xiaoli has power mimicry and resistance to those, has stella's hax (so EE with fire), Naseem has conceptual succ (so sucks the moisture outta you). While Edel is just a skilled girl with a sword and desperado hax.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Hey at least i finally got over the "Flowery Language" argument

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

That's because no one gives enough of a **** to argue it with you