Scion AP change and possible Endbringer buff

[Wokistan]

So I was on discord chuckling over wildbow wanking his own verse, with wog for 4-C endbringers, MFTL+ swimming leviathan, and 4-A durability. Except as it turned out, that last one was far more defendable than I had initially thought.

The Big Bad dura calc

Whispersilk A couple of things: Goddamn, I love Tattletale. Leviathan is absolutely terrifying. Like, the fight's been going on for all of five seconds and we've got multiple dead and injured. Leviathan sunk Newfoundland. Newfoundland is not a small island, and that is "not* okay. Leviathan is obviously on some sort of diet. Thirty feet tall, and the thing weighs less than an elephant? That can't be nothing but good genes. I'm not gonna lie, we're looking to be in a pretty bad spot right about now. Also, math is below for why Leviathan is even more terrifying than indicated by point 2, courtesy of Tattletale info and extrapolation. So we see Tattletale do her thing on Leviathan, and get this: Leviathan, nonstandard cardiac, nervous systems: irregular biology. No standard organs or weak points. No brain, heart or center of operations for rest of his body. Irregular biology, no vulnerable organs: body divided into layers, extending down to hyperdurable core body, each layer down is slightly more than twice as durable as previous. Exterior skin is hard as aluminum alloy, but flexible, lets him move. 3% deeper in toward core of arms, legs, claws, tail, or .5% in toward core of head, trunk, neck, tissues are hard as steel. 6% in toward core of extremities or 1% toward core of main body/head, tissues strong as tungsten. 9% toward core of extremities, 1.5% toward core of main body, head, tissues strong as boron. 12%- I went and did a little bit of poking around to figure out how tough those materials are, trying to find a way of measuring toughness for which aluminum < steel < tungsten < boron, and what I came up with was ultimate tensile strength, or how much stress a material can withstand before deforming. Here's what those materials measure: aluminum - 300-483 MPa, varing slightly by alloy steel - 760-860 MPa, varying by alloyed or stainless tungsten - 1510 MPa boron - 3100 MPa This is terrifying, because it means Tattleatle is right and Leviathan's toughness is increasingexponentially as you move toward the center. Math time. Assuming Leviathan's toughness roughly doubles every 0.5% of the way towards the center of his body and every 3% of the way toward the center of his extremities all the way down, we can figure out how tough the center of those places are by dividing 100% by the distance toward the center you have to go to double toughness, and then raise 2 to that power (because that's how many times toughness would double) and multiply what you get by the toughness of aluminum (which we'll call 350 MPa, because that's somewhere in the middle of our range of possibilities). For the extremities, we get: 100/3 = 33 233 = 8,589,934,592 350*8,589,934,592 = 3,006,477,107,200 MPa Now might be a good time to mention that 1 MPa is equal to about ten atmospheres of pressure, or around 150 psi. The center of Leviathan's extremities would take 30 trillion atmospheres of pressure to damage. Comparatively, though, that's nothing. Let's look at the center of the main body. 100/0.5 = 200 2200 = 1.607*1060 350*1.607*1060 = 5.6245*1062 MPa (562,450,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 MPa) What the actual ****. No wonder nobody's been able to kill Leviathan. He gets tougher exponentially, has no normal organs and heals from the inside out - and if you somehow managed to get to his center to break it and stop him healing, you'd have to do something like throw a freaking solar system at it in order to do any damage. Leviathan makes me want to cry.

Or enjoy it in link form

Wildbow himself confirmed this calc, saying that only dura neg stuff really hurts them. The last part is kinda like what he said about a certain other indestructible character with endbringer level durability when it comes to actually hurting them.

The only real possible counterpoint I can think of is that The Simurgh made sure no endbringers ever had the opportunity to face off against String Theory (Worm)'s weapons because they could be an actual danger, but on this front:

• This is also from a WoG, making it subordinate to math
• She has the incredibly broad specialization of "single use machines on a timer"

So not only would this not override actual math that's just an extrapolation of what a character was actually thinking in verse, but it's entirely possible that String Theory could just build something that negates durability in some way.

As for the other big thing that could be going against it, we have Scion (Worm) tearing Behemoth in half and obliterating him. And that gets to the first part of the title, that's just not an AP feat no matter how you slice it.

Again, he held Behemoth in his hands. Thinner than a skeleton, the Endbringer was little more than a stick figure from Chevalier's vantage point. Only this time, with a flare of golden light to accompany the movement, he tore the Endbringer in two. The legs came free of the pelvis as two individual pieces, and Scion obliterated them with a pulse of the golden light. The air that reached the crowd of wounded heroes was cool, this time.
	~ Interlude 24​

Note the golden light. This is how he expresses his Stilling power. Shortly after that, it punches through something infinitely durable, so yeah.

Eidolon stopped him with a violet forcefield that spread across the sky, a solid obstacle to arrest Behemoth's momentum, stopping him dead in his tracks and leaving him suspended a hundred feet up in the air. His one intact claw clutched the edge. Scion followed up with another shaft of light, and the forcefield shattered in an instant. Behemoth was slammed into the road, three streets down from the gathered heroes outside the temple.
	~ Interlude 24​

As for Eidolon's shields, have this from his durability section:

• Unknow with forcefields (His forcefields have been compared to Clockblocker's power, a cape who can stop objects in time to render them inviolable. Clockblocker's usage of this power has stopped The Siberia from destroying an object. He was able to use forcefields to fully contain Phir Sē's time bomb, which was an attack capable of destroying all of India, and was even able to survive indirect hits from Scion (Worm))

Anyways, this also mirrors what happened with him killing Alexandria (Worm) and Leviathan (Worm). In the first case he claps to still in a really wide area, making Alexandria not indestructible. WIth Leviathan, he got beat to shit then hit with that golden light and died.

No matter if the durability upgrade goes through or not, this should be removed from his AP justification and means that no, this doesn't mean that Scion, Eidolon, Glaistig Uaine and Tohu have 4-A AP.

What this would change:

• Leviathan (Worm)'s durability goes to 4-A
• Behemoth (Worm)'s durability goes to 4-A
• The Simurgh's durability goes to 4-A
• Khonsu (Worm)'s durability goes to 4-A
• Tohu's durability goes to 4-A
• Alexandria (Worm)'s durability goes to 4-A
• Scion (Worm) loses a line of his AP justification

this is pretty funny but also what eve

 

[AbeLincoln1865]

I have no issues with this.

 

[Promestein]

I'm not going to participate in this, have fun

 

[DMUA]

Let me open with a quote, on a page that rarely ever helps us determine what the fork it's title means, but is still important to our community.

An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power.

Now, let's consider this.

Besides this, the highest feat in the entire verse is High 4-C, from the source of all powers. A casual feat, but, still over octillion times lower than what Endbringers supposedly have for dura, Endbringers made from what is a very, very small fraction of their full set of powers.

Endbringers, who actively avoid someone who's absolute best weapon was a High 6-A blast

You could argue that, maybe String Theory has some method of durability negation. But, if they did, and it was so good they would potentially be able to get through the physics warping interior of an Endbringer, you'd really think they'd bring that sort of thing up when it's time to arm against Scion. But, instead, they say "Alright, start at that moon dropping weapon you were making, and go bigger.", to which they follow up by making an upgraded version that blasts Scion.

While Scion is very likely using his durability negating powers to tear Behemoth in half, that still leaves the core in need of destroying, to what does he do?

Proceed to fire a gigantic laser at them. Raw AP, shaking the entire city, before eventually completely destroying the core. There is no indication that a town shaking impact negates dura, and it directly contradicts any involvement of Scion's stilling, which could be involved with him firing a laser.

So, we are going with a feat octillions of times above absolutely anything in the entire verse, because of one offhand statement by Tattletale that happened to get a big result and Wildbow, who isn't exactly batting a thousand for consistency with this stuff, given stuff mentioned in the OP, said it was okay.

.... Yeah not buying.

 

[Wokistan]

They kinda had no idea how to hurt Scion. He had always been invincible, I don't think anyone would have thought people's dura neg would have worked any more than they thought big AP would. String Theory being an issue for Endbringers is a WoG anyways and as such is inferior to math, especially when a character actually calculated this.

As for behemoth, you seem to have missed how his laser just before shattered the forcefield that has basically infinite durability since it's like the durability version of Siberian, and it would have done that shit with or without 4-A endbringer dura. Shaking the whole city is already not High 6-A, so that specific bit doesn't exactly seem like the best part to note. There's also how he can **** around with powers and that the other entity could manipulate resistances. With the Endbringers being products of Eidolon's power and all, this works.

As for the outlier quote, the "normally displayed level of power" for endbringer and Alexandria durability is "effectively indestructible". Nobody does significant harm to any of those guys without dura neg, since even Phir Se's bomb didn't do much besides make Behemoth look spookier. It was still doing all it's shit just fine and rapidly healing.

 

[DMUA]

I don't think anyone who was thinking about it for more than a split second, especially someone as smart as Defiant, would consider AP more destructive than a, to quote Wildbow, 'if anything can penetrate that defense, these guys penetrate that defense' sort of power.

Said WOG isn't contradicted, and wouldn't invoke death of the author to the point we should entirely discard it for something that's Hundreds of Quadrillions of times (note: I said octillions before, but then I checked the math and realized it's not nearly that high. Still absurd, but not to that level) higher than everything else in the verse.

I will admit my mistake on that end, I misremembered Behemoth's death. Looking back over it, it seems him tearing them in half was the final blow, then he tried to melt down as a final move to irradiate everyone, and got countered by first Grue using darkness and then Scion stilling it all over again.

Effectively seems like a key term, especially considering WOG.

 

[Randomlamdom]

Endbringers have very high durability, but shouldn't they have a weakness of planet busting attacks being enough to kill them, i don't know how to properly describe it so i'll copy from the wiki

"However, a concentrated attack with enough force to destroy the surface of a planet would be sufficient at killing an Endbringer in one shot.[5] While even an attack of that magnitude would not destroy all layers of the Endbringer body, enough energy to obliterate it instantly would be transmitted into the core, resulting in a 'definite kill'. In theory String Theory's Driver weapons pose a significant threat to the Endbringers. As a consequence they carefully plan their appearances as to eliminate any possibility of facing her in combat.[6]"

 

[Wokistan]

That's fair, though it's important to remember that her threatening endbringers wasn't necessarily considered for that statement in the first place. He may have just decided it later since Worm's still technically a draft.

It's not actively contradicted that she has a way around endbringers, but it's not as relevant as math that a character apparently did herself. Getting info is tattletale's entire power too.

The exceptions to the effectively here (besides string theory who is in a weird spot rn) are dura neg though. Both in the story and in the WoG.

@randomlandom I believe that refers to String Theory being theoretically able to kill one, or the saitama thing. It's important to note that when he said what he did about saitama killing endbringers, he was by his own admission arguing from a narrative perspective. Not as much saying endbrigners cap at High 6-A or 4-A saitama as it was adhering to the point of Saitama.

 

[DMUA]

If we want to argue about potential changes that can happen between Web Serial and publication, that approval for the calc came 2 whole years after Worm was written, along with the calc itself.

One of the statements is a gigantic outlier to absolutely everything, only mentioned by one character and approved by an author who doesn't do his math. Get a feat for the entities that even comes close to 4-A, and we could possibly consider it, but otherwise, I have to strongly disagree.

 

[Wokistan]

I mean we use calcs here that the authors don't approve because the math is right all the time

Full entities never even interacted with endbringers though, and have several forms of dura neg that would work on them. Full Entities are essentially gods anyways with their only non hax AP feat in existence being their mere thoughts, so...

There's also that String Theory's thing with the endbringers is mentioned by nobody at all in the story, so saying that tattletale only bothered to calc endbringer dura once doesn't really help in light of this

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I was going to have a lengthy reply to this but DMUA basically summed up my thoughts on the scenario.

So I'll just leave a "no" from me.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Was this entirely left alone or simply not pursued further?

 

[Chaingunfighter1]

@randomlandom I believe that refers to String Theory being theoretically able to kill one, or the saitama thing. It's important to note that when he said what he did about saitama killing endbringers, he was by his own admission arguing from a narrative perspective. Not as much saying endbrigners cap at High 6-A or 4-A saitama as it was adhering to the point of Saitama.

That's actually wrong; he wasn't just referring to Saitama in a narrative sense. In response to a reddit post where someone brought up that same point and said

The whole 'planet-busting beam' was a translation error. All it really meant was that it would destroy all life on the surface.

he said:

Punch that counters said beam & strikes like that one did is still good enough."

See here.

 

[Wokistan]

The new chapter says the G driver could kill the Simurgh if defiant could get a good hit on her with it anyways, so rip weird math