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SatAM Sonic refuses to read the Bible

Umm. No. Bibleman scales to Human vaping. Sonic scales to 98 Megajoules. Which is a bit more than 3 times under that
 
Because Bibleman is literally stronger and tougher. 300 Megajoules >>> 98 Megajoules

One shot is a 7.5 times difference

That was a durability feat. Bibleman's AP was scaled to a sword that can cut through steel, not a military railgun. That, and Sonic's speed would allow him to land blows very rapidly. How long do you think it would take him to land 8 consecutive hits on Bibleman?
 
His AP should scale to his durability via harming people who can harm him.

As well. Your logic is extremly poor considering Speed is equal

On top of that. You can't be serious to think someone who's 3 times tougher and stronger would only take 8 hits for sonic to kill. That's horribly incorrect.

On top of that as well. Both are MHS+. Making your argument even further incorrect
 
Buttersamuri said:
His AP should scale to his durability via harming people who can harm him. (...) On top of that. You can't be serious to think someone who's 3 times tougher and stronger would only take 8 hits for sonic to kill. That's horribly incorrect.
Click to expand...
That would make AP and Durability the same calculation, thus severely imbalancing all characters who can dish out more damage than they can take.

Buttersamuri said:
As well. Your logic is extremly poor considering Speed is equal

On top of that as well. Both are MHS+. Making your argument even further incorrect
Click to expand...
I hard forgotten that the speed was equalized, however, I still have a point in that - in Sonic's case - his speed and his AP are interrelated. Notice how he weant through the rock? He tunneled into it through raw torque. That's not the only time he done things like that: he burrowed tens of meters into the earth (Sonic is one meter tall) to weaponize an oil derrick against an airship, triggering an earthquake in the process that sank an entire island.

He is able to continuously generate force with his speed to create far greater effects than a simple punch. Your only actual point against him so far is durability, and not near enough durability for a one-shot.
 
That's a pointless argument as it has no ground to stand on. He can clearly take hits from people as strong as him.. claiming that other characters can take more than can dish is Other Characters. He doesn't fall under that category.

Ok. So. Speed is still equal, meaning he can attack and react at just a rapid pace. And having bladed weapons means his attacks are deadlier than his spin dash. Pierce weapons is a better option.

And my point is your very wrong with a lot of you're points. Sonic doesn't even come close to 8 shotting. Speed is eqaul, making him able to react and attack at just a rapid rate. And he much stronger and tougher.
 
Buttersamuri said:
That's a pointless argument as it has no ground to stand on. He can clearly take hits from people as strong as him.. claiming that other characters can take more than can dish is Other Characters. He doesn't fall under that category.
Click to expand...
Looking at Bibleman's profile, his AP is "Likely Small Building level" because "(Should scale to his durability, able to harm Luxor Spawndroth. The Sword of The Spirit is able to block a similar blade, which is able to effortlessly cut through steel)"

That's not a convincing argument. Fictional characters of all kinds, heroes and not, have attacks and weapons that can overwhelm their own durability. Think of how Kylo Ren did when Rey stabbed him with his own lightsaber: he didn't just tank that and keep walking. Even in reality, an F-15 isn't not going to tank it's own firepower. So no, his AP shouldn't scale to his durability unless that can be proven.

Buttersamuri said:
Ok. So. Speed is still equal, meaning he can attack and react at just a rapid pace.

And my point is your very very VERY wrong with a lot of you're points. Sonic doesn't even come close to 8 shotting. Speed is eqaul, making him able to react and attack at just a rapid rate. And he much stronger and tougher.
Click to expand...
You have no evidence that he's stronger: only more durable. That, and did you not read what I just posted about Sonic's torque, and ability to continuously generate force with his speed? He didn't create the earthquake brought down that island with a single casual attack: his speed translates into constantly increasing power. This is also true (although less so) of the Sonic games of the time.
 
Neither is your argument. However mine has ground to stand on. Saying he is likely doesn't change the fact he scales. We are using the 9-A key meaning thr "likely" part of it doesn't matter. That's the key we are using so that's what he will scale to. Your arguments literally don't work cause they don't apply. It doesn't matter about other characters. Just this character. There is no twisting it to make him weaker. Period.

And yes I do. It's called what's literally on the page. You can't ignore evidence that's clearly on the page. Saying "it's only likely" or "sometimes people aren't as strong as they are tough" aren't valid arguments because they don't matter in this case

He does scale to his durability cause he scales to people who can hurt him, and we are using his 9-A key, so that means we use the 9-A Calc. Which is 300 Megajoules. So the evidence is very much there.
 
Buttersamuri said:
Neither is your argument. However mine has ground to stand on. Saying he is likely doesn't change the fact he scales. (...) we are using his 9-A key, so that means we use the 9-A Calc. Which is 300 Megajoules. So the evidence is very much there.
Click to expand...
  • The durability difference alone is not a stomp.
  • Durability is not AP. I just explained why AP doesn't automatically scale to durability, so you need to prove that his AP scales to his durability - the current page does not do that: it suggests it based on flawed logic. So, it falls to you to provide the evidence for that claim.
  • Explain to me why you're ignoring the fact that SatAM Sonic - who is listed as 9-A - was able to bring down an island as a side effect of his actions. I'll repeat that he didn't do this as a single attack: it was a buildup from the damage he was causing over time. However, it is still a feat.
 
1. Literally never said it was a stomp

2. And you have not been reading. Bibleman Scales to people who can hurt him thus making him scale to his durability. Your logic is flawed because you've ignored what is Very straight forward and I've said multiple times. Your trying to debunk something that's literally on the page. the evidence is required needs to come from you. Cause the reason he scales is because people hi can injure him, he scales to. That's proof right there. You have nothing but vague comparison to other characters which is entirely irrelevant

3. Ok. Let me make this clear. This is their 9-A versions. Bringing in feats like that and asking me why I'm not using them is obvious. Very obvious. Thats a feat beyond 9-A, and isn't being used on a feat that's specifically using 9-A Sonic. If you have a problem with that feat not being used, make a CTR, but that feat ain't working here.
 
Buttersamuri said:
2. And you have not been reading. Bibleman Scales to people who can hurt him thus making him scale to his durability.
Click to expand...
You're still treating AP and durability as one thing. They are not one thing. They are two separate things.

Buttersamuri said:
Your logic is flawed because you've ignored what is Very straight forward and I've said multiple times. Your trying to debunk something that's literally on the page. the evidence is required needs to come from you. Cause the reason he scales is because people hi can injure him, he scales to. That's proof right there. You have nothing but vague comparison to other characters which is entirely irrelevant
Click to expand...
Pages are not flawless, that's why we edit them. I've already given evidence for MY claims, it's not also up to me to provide evidence for yours. It's not me making vague comparisons to other characters: that's literally what you are doing right here!

Buttersamuri said:
3. Ok. Let me make this clear. This is their 9-A versions. Bringing in feats like that and asking me why I'm not using them is obvious. Very obvious. Thats a feat beyond 9-A, and isn't being used on a feat that's specifically using 9-A Sonic. If you have a problem with that feat not being used, make a CTR, but that feat ain't working here.
Click to expand...
Except that 9-A key is his base form. You know how Sonic did that feat? He was in base form. Which is why we shouldn't treat pages as gospel for just existing.
 
And you are failing to acknowledge that someone being able to damage Bibleman, someone who Bibleman also fights makes him scale to his durability

Man can hurt Bibleman putting their AP and durability at 300 Megajoules. Bibleman can match them. So Bibleman scales. It's that simple

And yet you are wrong about them. You continue to ignore the fact his AP scales to his durability because he fights people up can injure him. You are making vague comparisons. Trying to say some characters can take more than they can give us vague. That's other characters. Not this one.

Ok. So. Make a CTR and stop complaining here if you want the feat to be acknowledged. Bringing that feat up means absolutely nothing as that's not a feat that can be used: this is 9-A sonic. So no twisting that in any way to use it.
 
Buttersamuri said:
And you are failing to acknowledge that someone being able to damage Bibleman, someone who Bibleman also fights makes him scale to his durability Man can hurt Bibleman putting their AP and durability at 300 Megajoules. Bibleman can match them. So Bibleman scales. It's that simple
Click to expand...
That's called circular reasoning. By that logic, Kylo Ren's total AP scales directly to Chewbacca's Bowcaster.

Buttersamuri said:
And yet you are wrong about them. You continue to ignore the fact his AP scales to his durability because he fights people up can injure him. You are making vague comparisons. Trying to say some characters can take more than they can give us vague. That's other characters. Not this one.
Click to expand...
That has yet to be proven.

Buttersamuri said:
Ok. So. Make a CTR and stop complaining here if you want the feat to be acknowledged. Bringing that feat up means absolutely nothing as that's not a feat that can be used: this is 9-A sonic. So no twisting that in any way to use it.
Click to expand...
If this feat exists (and it does) then there is no 9-A Sonic (as far as AP). Also, Sonic is scaled to 9-A as a durability feat. The island feat affects his AP. See how they're not the same thing?
 
If Kylo can injure someone who can physically injure him, his AP scales to his durability, yes. That's how basic logic works. Unless there is specific reason why they would be more durable, this logic works.

Which it doesn't need to be cause it's basic 1 2 3 logic

Which again. Make a CTR and stop wasting time on this pointless point. You are going nowhere with this. This debate doesn't magically stop because he has that one feat. It may not be on the page cause it's an outlier. If you think it should be on the page. For the third to fourth time. Make a CTR.
 
Buttersamuri said:
If Kylo can injure someone who can physically injure him, his AP scales to his durability, yes. That's how basic logic works. Unless there is specific reason why they would be more durable, this logic works.
Click to expand...
Again, by that logic, Chewbacca is as powerful as Kylo Ren. You should be able to see the problems there.

Buttersamuri said:
Which it doesn't need to be cause it's basic 1 2 3 logic
Click to expand...
No, it's not. Your statements need proving.

Buttersamuri said:
Which again. Make a CTR and stop wasting time on this pointless point. You are going nowhere with this. This debate doesn't magically stop because he has that one feat. It may not be on the page cause it's an outlier. If you think it should be on the page. For the third to fourth time. Make a CTR.
Click to expand...
The debate doesn't magically stop because you can use false logic to assert without evidence that Bibleman's AP and Durability are the exact same. Also, you need to prove that the Sonic feat is an outlier, not mererly claim that it is on nothing but the page. And believe me, I intend to make a revision thread, as soon as I collect some more data and the lockdown is no longer a problem.
 
I'm not going further either you. You obviously downplaying like hell and ignoring the clear and basic evidence right in front of you.Your vote shouldn't count as completely ignoring BiblemanD stats, cause he scales to 300 Megajoules. You can't twist it around and act like I need evidence here when you trying to ignore what's in front of you.

If someone can damage Bibleman. They scale to 300 Megajoules. If Bibleman can match their strength. Bibleman also scales to 300 Megajoules. This is in fact the case. No twisting that around with other characters. No "I need evidence" because that in itself is the evidence. Stop ignoring it.

"Oh but you have to" no I don't, and trying to use that argument is weak AF. It's not on his page for a reason. Again. Make a thread and stop whining at me about it. It's not in the page, so we don't use it. you think that's wrong, CTR it.
 
Literally, every character that Bibleman has fought, all seem to scale to him.

The only difference, is that Bibleman is the only character in the series who is seen surviving vaporisation. And since his villains are able to harm him, they scale to him.
 
Buttersamuri said:
I'm not going further either you. You obviously downplaying like hell and ignoring the clear and basic evidence right in front of you.Your vote shouldn't count as completely ignoring BiblemanD stats, cause he scales to 300 Megajoules. You can't twist it around and act like I need evidence here when you trying to ignore what's in front of you.
Click to expand...
What's in front of me? I'm the one posting evidence supporting my position. Your response so far is to simply ignore the feat because it's not on the page, and implying that it shouldn't be on the page ("It's not on his page for a reason").

Buttersamuri said:
If someone can damage Bibleman. They scale to 300 Megajoules. If Bibleman can match their strength. Bibleman also scales to 300 Megajoules. This is in fact the case. No twisting that around with other characters. No "I need evidence" because that in itself is the evidence. Stop ignoring it.
Click to expand...
Stop conflating AP and defense: they are not the same, and are not treated as automatically scaling to each other on this wiki: that's WHY they are listed separately.

Of course if anyone can hurt Bibleman, their AP scales to Bibleman's defense. That doesn't mean Bibleman's AP automatically scales to his own defense. His durability is based on surviving vaporization while his AP is merely based on a blade cutting through steel. We know Biblman's AP has to generally scale at or above his enemies' defense.

Buttersamuri said:
"Oh but you have to" no I don't, and trying to use that argument is weak AF. It's not on his page for a reason. Again. Make a thread and stop whining at me about it. It's not in the page, so we don't use it. you think that's wrong, CTR it.
Click to expand...
It's not on his page because it wasn't evaluated: I can't find anything even referencing the feat here. And I'm not going to be making a CTR until the forum move is completed.

EnnardTrap1987 said:
Literally, every character that Bibleman has fought, all seem to scale to him.

The only difference, is that Bibleman is the only character in the series who is seen surviving vaporisation. And since his villains are able to harm him, they scale to him.
Click to expand...
Again: Of course if anyone can hurt Bibleman, their AP scales to Bibleman's defense. That doesn't mean Bibleman's AP automatically scales to his own defense. His durability is based on surviving vaporization while his AP is merely based on a blade cutting through steel. We know Biblman's AP has to generally scale at or above his enemies' defense.
 
Xx.davidparra said:
^The Headassery is strong with this one
Click to expand...
Feel free to explain why AP and durability are accounted for separately on this wiki if what I said is not true.
 
AP and durability are accounted separate because they CAN be different. But that doesn't mean they automatically are for every page. Gotta use their actual feats and what they would scale to, which your not using. Matching someone's power who can damage you means their and your AP scales to your durability. Cases can exist where they are tougher than they are strong. But that isn't demonstrated for him.

Now. I'm not wasting anymore time explaining this 20 more times to you. Bibleman scales to human vap. Both AP and durability wise.
 
Buttersamuri said:
AP and durability are accounted separate because they CAN be different. But that doesn't mean they automatically are for every page. Gotta use their actual feats and what they would scale to, which your not using. Matching someone's power who can damage you means their and your AP scales to your durability. Cases can exist where they are tougher than they are strong. But that isn't demonstrated for him.

Now. I'm not wasting anymore time explaining this 20 more times to you. Bibleman scales to human vap. Both AP and durability wise.
Click to expand...
Yet, on the page, only his durability is shown to scale to human vaporization. You are merely asserting that his AP is the same.
 
Xx.davidparra said:
he literally explained to you 4 times why his dura scales to ap
Click to expand...
No, he just said that it does. I've seen this argument before, usually from Dragonball fanboys, and it's just as broken now as ever because it assumes that everyone's durability and AP are typically the same stat. The logic he uses is:

Character A punches character B, character B survives.

Character B punches character A, character A survives.

Therefore they are both the same tier.

That's broken logic because an AA gun can take down airplane with one shot... and that airplane can one shot an AA gun. Why aren't they the same tier? Because the airplane had a nuke, and could take out a millio AA guns with one shot. The airplane is also far, far faster.

Fictional characters follow the same rules. Just because you can dish it out, doesn't mean you can take it, and vice versa, and there are way more things to consider than just "this one is more durable, therefore it wins".
 
That is also why I brought up SatAM Sonic's Island feat: he didn't do that with one attack (Ergo, his AP is too low to do it). He did that feat by continuous, repeated action, building up to an island-level feat over time, using his speed and torque to pull it off. He can't just casually smash islands. But he CAN destroy islands, regardless. As seen.
 
also because an AA gun CANT destroy a plane. The most it can do is cause a domino effect to cause it to crash. That's a vastly different situation. If you hit a Plane or a car in the right spot, it will cause it issues in its mechanics. But isn't the gun scaling to their power, thats a gun piercing it and then causing it an issue on its inner workings. You can jam the cogs of s robot without even being remotely strong enough to destroy the robot

The gun isn't cause the plane to explodes into bits. What causes that is the planet crashing. Which is why a gun wouldn't scale to that.
 
Buttersamuri said:
also because an AA gun CANT destroy a plane. The most it can do is cause a domino effect to cause it to crash. That's a vastly different situation. If you hit a Plane or a car in the right spot, it will cause it issues in its mechanics. But isn't the gun scaling to their power, thats a gun piercing it and then causing it an issue on its inner workings. You can jam the cogs of s robot without even being remotely strong enough to destroy the robot

The gun isn't cause the plane to explodes into bits. What causes that is the planet crashing. Which is why a gun wouldn't scale to that.
Click to expand...
You assume. What if the the AA gun had missiles instead, that could shatter the plane entirely? And it could also easily have far more armor than the aircraft it shoots down. Yet, it still doesn't have the AP to match the aircraft I proposed. AP and durability are not the same, and one should never be assumed based on the other.
 
1. Durability always scales to AP has far as physical blows are concerned. If they didn't, they'd explode from the force of their own punches. All of your examples involve projectiles, which is a completely different matter unrelated to this fight.

2. If two characters can trade direct physical blows with each other, be they punches, sword exchanges, or what have you, then their AP and Durability would directly scale. That's literally how this entire site works. We're not changing the entire scaling system just because you don't agree with it.
 
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