Sans vs Shedinja

[Ricsi0309]

[No message]

 

[Ricsi0309]

Motivations above

 

[Aparajita]

I disagree about the attacks being ghost type, as they are physically there first. It's a side effect of the attack that hits the soul.

Can someone answer this?

 

[Talonmask]

All of the attacks in Undertale are SOUL attacks, it isn't just a side effect, they directly attack it.

 

[Aparajita]

All of the attacks in Undertale are SOUL attacks, it isn't just a side effect, they directly attack it.

But the attacks require physical contact to hit the soul, correct?

If Shedninja isn't physically there, how are the attacks going to hit?

 

[RadicalMrR]

Well Sans is a Skeleton so it's not to hard to believe he's ghost type as well, and in pokemon as long as your attack is elemental based and not normal type you should be able to hit your opponent.

But the main problem is wonder guard.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well Sans is a Skeleton so it's not to hard to believe he's ghost type as well, and in pokemon as long as your attack is elemental based and not normal type you should be able to hit your opponent.
But the main problem is wonder guard.

Um fighting type also doesnt have an effect on ghost types and i dont think so. IIRC, in the anime when Ash and Pikachu became souls ghost types like Haunter were still able to pass through them, so if im right they are even intangible to other ghosts. Tho good points on everything else.

As a thought, cant Shedninja just BFR Sans away via Phantom force? There's no evidence that the user of such a move cant just latch itself onto its opponent and drag them down into the void along with them. Shedninja could just grab onto Sans, use Phantom Force and drag Sans into the void to win.

 

[Talonmask]

But the attacks require physical contact to hit the soul, correct?

If Shedninja isn't physically there, how are the attacks going to hit?

I don't believe they require physical contact, they attack the physical body as well as the soul, all of the fights are them attacking your soul.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Well Sans is a Skeleton so it's not to hard to believe he's ghost type as well, and in pokemon as long as your attack is elemental based and not normal type you should be able to hit your opponent.
But the main problem is wonder guard.

Um fighting type also doesnt have an effect on ghost types and i dont think so. IIRC, in the anime when Ash and Pikachu became souls ghost types like Haunter were still able to pass through them, so if im right they are even intangible to other ghosts. Tho good points on everything else.
As a thought, cant Shedninja just BFR Sans away via Phantom force? There's no evidence that the user of such a move cant just latch itself onto its opponent and drag them down into the void along with them. Shedninja could just grab onto Sans, use Phantom Force and drag Sans into the void to win.

Sans (and all under tale characters really) attacks are based on that of the soul. they attack the soul directly. if you take any thing from taht you'd say that they have some type of "Ghost" atribute to them at least. which owuld mean it could hit Shedninja. that aside, not evyer single shedninja will have phantom force. most wont. whild or trained. its not likly you're going to find one using it just because of this fight.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Four moves are game mechanics, Ty. Several Pokemon in the anime used more than 4 moves, including Charizard.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Sans (and all under tale characters really) attacks are based on that of the soul. they attack the soul directly. if you take any thing from taht you'd say that they have some type of "Ghost" atribute to them at least. which owuld mean it could hit Shedninja. that aside, not evyer single shedninja will have phantom force. most wont. whild or trained. its not likly you're going to find one using it just because of this fight.

But that's like saying Pikachu will likely not have thunderbolt or iron tail as not all Pikachu will automatically have them (whether the decide to learn them or not) and yet we have them on their profiles. Why wouldnt Shedninja have its moves here?

Yes but the problem with this that Shedninja doesnt have a soul since...well....he technically is a soul. So unless the attacks would just be focused on Shedninja being a spirit they likely wouldnt work.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Four moves are game mechanics, Ty. Several Pokemon in the anime used more than 4 moves, including Charizard.

yet it contradicts its self later by stating the 4 move rule.

either way youre not garunteed to have a shedinja with shadow force. while that would be an easy victory. this is a match of 2 side 1 hit wonders so to speak. and only one of them has the means to get that 1 hit 100% of the time. more consistant than the other. this boils down to consistancy here. so yea.

 

[Talonmask]

Ty, Pokemon like Alakazam go completely against the four move rule and demonstrates why it's just a game mechanic, as it is said to remember everything it learns.

 

[RadicalMrR]

There's a Dragonite that used 8 moves in the anime and I think there's a Pokemon ranger game where you get like 16 moves.

It's a game mechanic and should not be used for Vs debates.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Ty, Pokemon like Alakazam go completely against the four move rule and demonstrates why it's just a game mechanic, as it is said to remember everything it learns.

"either way you're not garrunteed to have a shedinja with shadow force"


Now read the rest.

 

[Talonmask]

"either way you're not garrunteed to have a shedinja with phantom* force"


Now read the rest.

It naturally learns Phantom Force, so it's consistent.

 

[Typhlosion130]

"either way you're not garrunteed to have a shedinja with phantom* force"


Now read the rest.

It naturally learns Phantom Force, so it's consistent.

But many, many more variables apply where as in sans' case they don't.

 

[Talonmask]

Such as? We can just say it has its natural moveset or it has access to TM moves, there's next to no variables.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Such as? We can just say it has its natural moveset or it has access to TM moves, there's next to no variables.

Will the shedninja know it (levels aren't really used here and pokemon don't always know all moves). will it even use this one move that could kill sans before sans gets one of his attacks which can hit it. If it does use it, can sans still hit it via reality warping before the next turn? The move may not miss but sans can teleport, could we consider this a hax to get out of "unavoidable moves"?

these variables just don't apply to sans. his only variable is his soul based attacks which we can assume would be workable against shedinja. Aside that he really ahs no variables.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Hmmm, can Shedinja counter Sans's Blue Mode?

 

[Typhlosion130]

Hmmm, can Shedinja counter Sans's Blue Mode?

the move gravity affects it. so no.

 

[Talonmask]

Will the shedninja know it (levels aren't really used here and pokemon don't always know all moves). will it even use this one move that could kill sans before sans gets one of his attacks which can hit it. If it does use it, can sans still hit it via reality warping before the next turn? The move may not miss but sans can teleport, could we consider this a hax to get out of "unavoidable moves"?

these variables just don't apply to sans. his only variable is his soul based attacks which we can assume would be workable against shedinja. Aside that he really ahs no variables.

First off, not move is truly unavoidable, unless it's something like telekinesis which lacks that travel distance, Shedinja could just as easily extend its shadow to attack Sans from behind with Shadow Sneak and use Mind Reader to predict what Sans is about to do.

Second, Mind Reader will likely give it the optimal move to go with at the time.

 

[Typhlosion130]

Will the shedninja know it (levels aren't really used here and pokemon don't always know all moves). will it even use this one move that could kill sans before sans gets one of his attacks which can hit it. If it does use it, can sans still hit it via reality warping before the next turn? The move may not miss but sans can teleport, could we consider this a hax to get out of "unavoidable moves"?

these variables just don't apply to sans. his only variable is his soul based attacks which we can assume would be workable against shedinja. Aside that he really ahs no variables.

First off, not move is truly unavoidable, unless it's something like telekinesis which lacks that travel distance, Shedinja could just as easily extend its shadow to attack Sans from behind with Shadow Sneak and use Mind Reader to predict what Sans is about to do.
Second, Mind Reader will likely give it the optimal move to go with at the time.

even MORE VARIABLES. mind reader, does it know it. will it use it. etc etc.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

This is bloodlusted. Of course he will use it. Bloodlusted means a character use their abilities at their fullest without PIS getting in the way.

 

[Talonmask]

Yes, it knows it, yes, it will use it, it isn't increasing the variables, it's narrowing them by giving the Shedinja the optimal move to use at the time since it knows what Sans is going to do.

Stop asking if it knows moves that it learns naturally, it's been established that Pokemon will at least have their natural moveset in these battles.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Doesn't Sans have the intelligence to tell how many times he's killed Chara just by looking at their face?

Naturally I think he'd notice Shedinja fading out of existence, or extending out its shadow, and likely assume that Shed is doing it for a reason, and be able to act accordingly. But I doubt he'd be able to read Shed's facial expressions very well, because... well... Shed doesn't have any. And Shedinja could just expose his back to him and steal his soul.

I'm voting Shedinja.

 

[Talonmask]

The problem with that is Sans cannot exactly read a hollow, expressionless shell, and Mind Reader compensates for Sans' intelligence.

I love them both, this is a difficult decision for me.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

No. Chara has shown quite noticable facial expression. "you look very pissed off". Shedinja isn't something Sans can figures out.

Beside, Shedinja has mind-reading, which is a tier higher than what Sans can do in reading.

 

[Thebluedash]

Also, this might be NLF but Phantom Force sorta bypasses reaction speed...

Might be NLF? bruh. This is a good candidate to use as an example for the NLF page.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It just bypass some kind of precog I'd say.

 

[Huesito88]

If shedinja wins it better be in his notable wins or their is clearly something wrong here

 

[Huesito88]

Bump

 

[The_Smashor]

sans' bone attacks would be ground type (Pokemon bone attacks), gaster blasters would be normal or dragon type (Hyper beam from a dragon skull), and sould manipulation 1. would be impossible since Shedinja dosn't have a soul and 2. Gravity is a psychic type move, as is all other telekinetic moves in pokemon. Shedinja also has mind reader to make it so sans can't dodge. And KR. requires damaging the foe first, as well. Shedinja wins. Don't get me wrond, I like undertale. But sans can't kill somthing he can't damage.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

No. Bones aren't automatically ground level, nor is anything you said true.

Never was it stated that Shed doesn't have a soul. Given that it is a ghost type, it probably only is a soul.

 

[Pocket-Chu]

Gosh looks like a oddly complicated battle XD But I'd say Shed would probably take it in the end, he seems to have less chance of losing thanks to his abilities.

 

[The_Smashor]

According to the pokedex entries, Shedinja "Mearly a hollow shell" "Dosn't even breathe" "Peering into the crack on it's back is said to steal one's spirit" Even if you don't beleive the entries, what do you think, Nincada's soul split in 2? And if pokemon mystery dungeon, shedinja itself says it's an empty shell.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

The dex entries describe Shedinja's BODY as an empty shell, not Shedinja in its entirety.

You're right about everything else, though.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Also, I'm not sure if KR would even affect Shedinja, regardless of if it has a soul or not.

There's no canon kill record. It's never confirmed anywhere that Shedinja actually DOES steal one's soul, only that it's RUMORED to. And Shedinja hasn't had many significant appearances, so there's not really much to work with. In that case, it's safer to assume that Shedinja hasn't killed anyone than to assume that it has.

 

[The_Smashor]

Kr requires you DAMAGE somebody first.

Also, chances are it would be a new shedinja. Wild pokemon attack wild Shedinja in PMD

 

[The_Smashor]

Oh, and two words as to why shedinja wins. MIND. READER.