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Sans vs Malachite

Sans' attacks can affect the physical body, but his main way to do damage and resrict enemy movement is soul based (Karmic Retribution, ignoring durability and Blue mode). It does still put sans at a massive disadvantage to where it's almost unfair. Sans can still teleport though, which might help him survive for longer. Overall it looks like this goes to Malachite.
 
Let me clarify something.

The SOUL in Undertale is defined as "the very culmination of your being". It seems that anything that is alive and sentient has a SOUL, and while they can be drastically different (for instance, human SOULs and monster SOULs), they are still considered SOULs.

Then, you have someone like Flowey, who has no SOUL considering he is not a naturally sentient creature, but a flower (which otherwise lacks any form of sentience or idea of self) infused with Determination.

Sans was still perfectly able to kill Flowey multiple times after Flowey started going on killing rampages. Flowey obviously gains exp as he kills, which makes him grow stronger, and going by his dialogue, would obviously need to make him strong enough to kill everyone else in the Underground. Sans was still perfectly able to end him enough times to cause him great amounts of frustration, and unless you want to assume Sans did this strictly by pinging an at least Large City/Mountain level enemy with Wall level attacks or that he had some kind of anti-Flowey gun, I'm pretty sure he doesn't require his opponent to have a SOUL to affect them.
 
So Karmic Retribution would become useless due to Malachite's lack of a soul, and her Gem physiology would render Blue Mode useless. My vote goes to Malachite
 
WeeklyBattles said:
So Karmic Retribution would become useless due to Malachite's lack of a soul, and her Gem physiology would render Blue Mode useless. My vote goes to Malachite
Click to expand...
Blue mode isn't gravity, its soul manipulation. If we go with the idea that malachite doesn't have a SOUL (which I'm still not sold on) then that alone may be the relevant factor to prevent blue mode from working. The 'adapts to gravity' thing is irrelevant.
 
Vote goes to sans. The fact that he has killed flowey an unknown number of times means his tricks likely work on soulless beings.
 
Malachite

She cant be affected by gravity changes, and even if she poofs, Sans has to deal with 2 powerful gems at the same time

Sans can't teleport of of a giant ocean flooding the underground either
 
Jinx666 said:
Malachite
She cant be affected by gravity changes, and even if she poofs, Sans has to deal with 2 powerful gems at the same time

Sans can't teleport of of a giant ocean flooding the underground either
Click to expand...
Blue mode is soul manipulation, not gravity manipulation. Also, the location isn't specified. Malachite woudn't be able to get past the barrier and into the underground anyway, so the fight shouldn't really take place there.
 
Still, Sans has gravity hax that we nullified, that's at least what it says, but it doesn't need to take place in the underground, they flood anywhere and even so, Gems don't have souls, they aren't organic
 
Jinx666 said:
Still, Sans has gravity hax that we nullified, that's at least what it says, but it doesn't need to take place in the underground, they flood anywhere and even so, Gems don't have souls, they aren't organic
Click to expand...
Nope. Sans doesn't have any gravity hax. He has SOUL manipulation in the form of blue mode that looks similar to gravity but isn't actually gravity. It is in no way effected by any 'resistance to gravity' that a character might have.

Gems are organic and dont have souls is a tired argument that has no bearing on this. We are talking about SOULS not souls, they are not the same words so stop comparing them. Even if they were the same, Sans has defeated Flowey many times who is stated to lack a 'SOUL' so his abilities must work on him. Chara and Frisk also have both killed Flowey before on screen using their SOUL damaging attacks, even though he has 'no SOUL'.

I wish people would stop bringing the soul thing up, its not even like it was stated anywhere that 'gems don't have souls so are immune to soul magic' in any relevant canon of either universe, it's just something people keep spamming thats irrelevant it best and flat incorrect at worst.
 
K I guess

By your logic, this can't effect anyone outside of Undertale due to them not having this SOUL, but we can't use that via game mechanics, proof of flowers lack of soul

Well, gems aren't technically organic or alive, they're just projections from their gem stone, which js what can hold up the argument, but yeah, we probs going to need more

Going with Malachite still though, Sans has been subdued by Flowey so he's not invincible, while Malachite has water :p
 
Karmic Retribution is based on LV. LV is based on ability to uncaringly hurt others/kill them.

According to the global rules of this wiki, all living beings have a soul unless stated otherwise.
 
In Undertale, the SOULs are the very essence of one's being, whether they are humans or not, by that logic, the Gems do have SOULs, and, if I recall correctly, it was never stated that the Gems are soulless.
 
Paulo.junior.969 said:
In Undertale, the SOULs are the very essence of one's being, whether they are humans or not, by that logic, the Gems do have SOULs, and, if I recall correctly, it was never stated that the Gems are soulless.
Click to expand...

Sans due to this.
 
Austrian-Man-Meat said:
Rocks do not contain souls, as they do not have any concious to speak of. Which is required to have a soul.
Click to expand...
By that logic malachite isn't a sentient being that is capable of fighting. Like a rock. So they shouldn't be in any battles.
 
Malachite is sentient, but she still lacks a soul. She's literally a rock with an artificial body. Does a robot have a soul? No. Can they still fight? Yes.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Malachite is sentient, but she still lacks a soul. She's literally a rock with an artificial body. Does a robot have a soul? No. Can they still fight? Yes.
Click to expand...
A robot without a soul is just a tool like a hammer. Tools shouldn't be allowed in battles. That's like saying that an animated sword should be allowed to be in battles.

That's ignoring that battles have been set before inside digital worlds like megaman and digimon and those characters were determined to have souls for the purposes of soul magic through verse equalization.
 
Hm...My vote is for Sans, not for KR, that's null and void against Malachite, no soul as of yet. but still, it's for the fact that every monster can bypass durability via the base attack system they all have, they attack the "soul". The representation of the mind, body, and spirit. I say, even without KR, Sans would still win by spamming gaster blasters.
 
What does they being rocks has to do with their SOULs, by that logic, Sans wouldn't have a SOUL, he is an skeleton, Vulkin is a vulcan, so, he also doesn't have a SOUL, Tsunderplane is a freaking plane, so, no SOUL for her too.
 
@Paulo I think you may be surpised to learn this... but.... outside of UT, rock beings can exist without souls.

EDIT: Wait not even Flowey has a soul. Huh.
 
Why the **** is Malachite having a soul still being debated? It doesn't matter, in this fight. Sans hurt Flowey with his powers. Flowey has no soul. People can get back to the actual fight, now.
 
Ok, fine, you know what, lets say that Malachite does have a soul. She would still bet Sans because:

1. Gem physiology counters Blue Mode by adjusting to counter changes in gravity

2. Malachite hasn't killed anyone, so the Gasterblasters, Bone attacks, and Karmic Retribution in general will do absolutely nothing

3. Malachite's stamina is limitless, whereas Sans' is limited, so she can easily outlast him

4. Malachite can survive in space whereas Sans cannot, so she can just fly there and continuously bombard him with the ocean until he goes down and he cant chase after her with his teleportation
 
Do you know what the concept of the Undertale "SOUL" is? An Undertale "SOUL" is everything you're made of, mind, spirit and body, it allows Monsters to bypass durability with their attacks.
 
However if we are conceding the soul point I will point out once again that the blue mode is not gravity manipulation, its soul manipulation, so the blue mode would still work against someone who was completely immune to gravity since it has nothing to do with gravity.

Also, even if you have 0 damage from KR, sans attacks do 1 damage anyway even to multiversal chara even before counting the KR. Thats 1/92 of a multiversal durability character. That's probably why Sans was able to defeat flowey even though flowey has no SOUL, there is significant physical damage along with the spiritual damage.

So if you concede the soul point, Malachite is both able to be restrained by blue mode and capable of being killed by Sans attacks.
 
A Sword Dancer said:
However if we are conceding the soul point I will point out once again that the blue mode is not gravity manipulation, its soul manipulation, so the blue mode would still work against someone who was completely immune to gravity since it has nothing to do with gravity.
Also, even if you have 0 damage from KR, sans attacks do 1 damage anyway even to multiversal chara even before counting the KR. Thats 1/92 of a multiversal durability character. That's probably why Sans was able to defeat flowey even though flowey has no SOUL, there is significant physical damage along with the spiritual damage.

So if you concede the soul point, Malachite is both able to be restrained by blue mode and capable of being killed by Sans attacks.
Click to expand...
Pretty true, except one part. Flowey has a soul. Actually Asriel's SOUL was implemented to a golden flower by Alphys. Because of that, I don't think flowers(at least golden flowers) have a soul inside them unless it is added from outside. And let's not forget flowers are living beings. Because of that, I think the SOUL rule can be stretched.
 
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