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Actually that's a good point from PaChi. Would it be similar to dodging Sans' attacks as if playing UT? Or would CH not be able to keep up, even though they had memorized the attack patterns? CH would include people who speedrun UT.
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Sans vs Combined Human
- Thread starter BruceTheBatman
- Start date
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- Tags
- sans the real world undertale
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Problem is I address this when he fought Armstrong, but I was told that since composite human exist in fiction we treat him as. If he is in fiction along with other chart her vs battle wiki also doesn't believe in fictional characters interacting with real life ones so composite human doesn't know who sans is.
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Wouldn't CH technically have Undertale's creator in him though? XD
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Alright then, though I still think it's a little weird since CH would include people like Toby Fox, but I'd still give my vote to CH for extreme intelligence and KR being ineffective.
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KR should work since it's every human combined, and no one is without sin or wrongdoing, therefore KH works.
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No, because CH itself doesn't do anything at all until the fight begins. CH is just an entity with the skills and knowledge of the entire race, but, evidently, didn't actually do all the things the human race did. It would know exactly how it would feel to kill a person, and have memories of doing it millions on millions of times, but never actually did it by itself.
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And do you honestly think thay a being like that didn't killed never in his entire existence? At least, being the humanity at his peak, it would also carry humanity sins, now wouldn't him? After all, those are not "weaknesses", in fact they are beneficious to ensure survival
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Sorry, I meant to say "didn't ever killed
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@Memoriandum
Yes, because CH doesn't exist until the battle begins. It has almost no lore (apart from its stats), and no history at all.
Yes, because CH doesn't exist until the battle begins. It has almost no lore (apart from its stats), and no history at all.
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Combined human hasn't actually done anything. They exist in a void of never having committed a crime, but recalling committing every crime anyone ever committed. But, they hold memories of programming Undertale, speedrunning it, and playing it casually. They know Sans's every attack, because they remember making him from nothing.
Thus, KR does nothing. Illusions of memories aren't culpability.
Thus, KR does nothing. Illusions of memories aren't culpability.
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No, they're not. The Combined Human still holds memories of programming Undertale, regardless of whether or not they're in Undertale, and still retain memories of playing and winning Undertale, regardless of the reality of the statement.Cropfist said:
They still hold the combined gaming and combat experience of everyone at once. They know Sans's character, talents, weaknesses, and abilities as well as Sans himself does.
They, in a sense, remember MAKING Sans, regardless of that creation being noncanon, they still remember and know everything about him.
And, just to be absurd, Combined Human is either soulless (if souls do not exist, which is what I believe) and thus immune to soul manip, or holds a composite soul, or has billions of souls melded into a single entity. Either situation reduces San's attacks even further, because CH is still sinless.
The CH is a theoretical concept, and thus, doesn't technically exist until fought. The CH never was and has not harmed anything in it's time on Earth, regardless of their memories or skills. They remember killing every murder victim ever. They remember killing themselves, hundreds of thousands of people, or nothing at all. But these memories are illusions, mere dust on the wind.
The CH is slower, but superior in all other physical aspects, and has enough stamina and durability to survive long enough for Sans to tire. If armed, they hold explosion manipulation, as well as fire, water and sound manip as well.
The CH wins.
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You're just ignoring my statements of the CH's experience. If you want to wank Undertale so badly, do it, rather than blatantly ignoring my statements. I said that, while this doesn't matter combatively the CH remembers making the exact attacks, dialogue, personality and character of Sans. They thus know Sans. They can plan, create traps, and exploit weaknesses better than Sans can, because of the knowledge gap.Cropfist said:
Basically, you're stating that knowledge is meaningless because derp.
If we want to go meta, they remember arguing both sides on whether they'd win against Sans anyway.
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While yes, the rules as written state in no unclear terms: "The fighters will have no prior knowledge about each other," it's canon, at least, for such a creature, that the CH holds knowledge of making Undertale. They might not immediately know Sans right out of the gate, or have forewarning, but they'd just have to remember. Regardless of your beliefs, they are everyone and cutting their actual knowledge out of the equation is violating canon either way.Cropfist said:
And even without the knowledge, the CH still wins because of their possible resistance to Soul Manip, and thus, resistance to the attacks of Sans anyhow.
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Combined human would have the strength of 100 billions souls
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"But muh Undertale wanking" isn't an argument. Sure, the CH doesn't canonically know Sans, if that's what you want (despite this being incorrect, as they clearly do, see the creating godamn Undertale aspect above) the CH still wins.Cropfist said:
Superior physical statistics, barring speed, but not exactly falling too far behind in that category either. Probable resistance to soul manip. Guiltlessness nullifying KR on the conceptual level. Superior combat experience (and weaponry if armed).
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Yes, Undertale isn't a game in this battlefield. No, it still applies. The CH still remembers creating Undertale, regardless if they actually did. Even though they didn't create Sans, they remember doing so, in an alternate existence.Cropfist said:
Even if they hold no knowledge of Sans, as if the hand of Wank blotted out that part of their memory, they still know Undertale. Even if they hold no knowledge of Undertale at all, they know martial arts, demolitions, marksmanship, and many other skills. If you wank Undertale so hard you think the CH goes "durp" the instant the skeleton shows up, you're not debating, you're blatantly wanking.
Furthermore, you're just harping on one statement I made, what about the others?
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Nope, Thread:428656#11.
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Even assuming no knowledge of Undertale at all, the CH wins anyway. Dispute me there. But fine, I accept that, in this fight, the CH has no knowledge of Undertale at all. How I envy them right now.Cropfist said:
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...You guys do realize that CH went through a massive downgrade since this thread was made and now Sans speedblitzes it to death, right?
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@Derp Sans is still far superior to another at Least MHS+ character (and who can dodge rays of sunlight), not being hit even once for the majority of the match and killing them like a ton of times until they had his entire attack pattern and hax memorized. CH is easily getting oneshotted by KR and much more hax before they can do jack here.
Or has any human ever dealt with being teleported around and thrown in the middle of a bunch of attacks and lasers?
This is still stompey. No way they're getting out of being teleported to the middle of a crapton of KR attacks with a kill count as high as CH would have. It would be easily oneshotted and would have no way to dodge.
And if we ignore KR then it becomes stomp in favor of the human because Sans only has Wall Level AP without KR, he would be the one getting oneshotted without even scratching CH.
That's why my first reply way back when this thread was made wasn't even serious. It's stomp one way or another, I'm surprised the thread even went this far.
Or has any human ever dealt with being teleported around and thrown in the middle of a bunch of attacks and lasers?
This is still stompey. No way they're getting out of being teleported to the middle of a crapton of KR attacks with a kill count as high as CH would have. It would be easily oneshotted and would have no way to dodge.
And if we ignore KR then it becomes stomp in favor of the human because Sans only has Wall Level AP without KR, he would be the one getting oneshotted without even scratching CH.
That's why my first reply way back when this thread was made wasn't even serious. It's stomp one way or another, I'm surprised the thread even went this far.
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Okay.
And I dunno, I thought they were like Continent or something in AP and with somewhat higher speed than Sans but now I'm not so certain anymore. I might have remembered wrong, yes. But the points still stand.
And I dunno, I thought they were like Continent or something in AP and with somewhat higher speed than Sans but now I'm not so certain anymore. I might have remembered wrong, yes. But the points still stand.
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As described beforehand, the CH never actually committed any crimes, and thus, KR isn't effective. Furthermore, no human has experienced teleportation, but it's not a gamebreaker. Finally, the CH either has no soul, (due to souls probably not existing IRL) or has billions of them. Soul attacks are moot here.FateAlbane said:
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In a fight between two characters that canonically know much about eachother (for instance, Naruto VS Sasuke) do they go into the fight knowing about eachother? I genuinely can't remember.
If so, it is definitely canon for CH to know about the Undertale universe, though it wouldn't be a game to CH. It would just know about the game called Undertale, which doesn't exist, and CH would realize that Sans seems a lot like Sans from Undertale, and could use that knowledge to make predictions (especially with CH's extreme intelligence).
If not, fair enough. I'll be voting for Sans.
If so, it is definitely canon for CH to know about the Undertale universe, though it wouldn't be a game to CH. It would just know about the game called Undertale, which doesn't exist, and CH would realize that Sans seems a lot like Sans from Undertale, and could use that knowledge to make predictions (especially with CH's extreme intelligence).
If not, fair enough. I'll be voting for Sans.
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Why are you voting Sans? KR, or Sans's best attack, is moot against CH, as outlined above. CH is physically superior in all ways, barring speed, and has greater combat experience anyway. It's fine if you vote Sans, just explain your reasoning.HalfAsianFan said:
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If the human has prep time, then it would be close. Humans have played undertale, and so many people have done no hit runs that it might be really easy for Combined human to dodge attacks. And dodging a knife every 40 seconds is one thing, dodging machine gun fire every 40 seconds is another completly. So:
With Prep: Combined Human
No Prep: Sans
With Prep: Combined Human
No Prep: Sans
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Just remember that KR really won't do too much to CH, who has better staying power (stamina is better, capable of fighting for hours, as compared to Sans, who tired in ten minutes, tops) and durability anyhow.The Smashor said:
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So I've decided to return to this thread with my vote for Sans.
Since Sans' speed is Unknown in speed due to being immensely faster than someone in Combined Human's speed tier, I'll just assume Sans is a bit faster than Combined Human's travel speed.
Under standard battle assumptions, "The fighters will have absolutely no prior knowledge of each other," and they have no prep time. That means this is his first time dealing with Sans in any capacity, whether Undertale was a game or not or doesn't get time to practice fighting Sans in the game, which I'm unsure on how that would actually help him in a real fight outside of seeing a 2d representation of his attacks that would be 3d in this fight. I also doubt any of Combined Human's weapons would be fast enough to hit Sans outside of swung melee weapons and maybe thrown weapons. However, Sans could aim dodge any thrown weapons (or just dodge them, depends on whether or not they're moving at Sub-Rel speeds like his melee weapons) and could just teleport Combined Human away from him.
I'm not sure I see the logic behind giving Combined Human "Billions of Souls," since, as I see it, it'd make more sense that he has one really tough one. If he does have that many souls though, then I don't see why they'd be overly durable. Unlike other characters in Undertale, Sans' attacks can move right through Chara/Frisk's soul and do constant damage for as long as they are in contact. In most threads I've seen, Sans is Wall level without his Hax, so he really would only need one bone to destroy each and every one of Combined Human's souls, assuming they take up the same space and that they're of normal human durability.
Then there's the argument that Combined Human might not have a soul. However, Flowey warns you about Sans because he caused him to reset numerous times, and Flowey is a soulless flower. He never specifies if he actually fought Sans or not, but his warning implies that he did and that it wasn't easy.
Since Sans' speed is Unknown in speed due to being immensely faster than someone in Combined Human's speed tier, I'll just assume Sans is a bit faster than Combined Human's travel speed.
Under standard battle assumptions, "The fighters will have absolutely no prior knowledge of each other," and they have no prep time. That means this is his first time dealing with Sans in any capacity, whether Undertale was a game or not or doesn't get time to practice fighting Sans in the game, which I'm unsure on how that would actually help him in a real fight outside of seeing a 2d representation of his attacks that would be 3d in this fight. I also doubt any of Combined Human's weapons would be fast enough to hit Sans outside of swung melee weapons and maybe thrown weapons. However, Sans could aim dodge any thrown weapons (or just dodge them, depends on whether or not they're moving at Sub-Rel speeds like his melee weapons) and could just teleport Combined Human away from him.
I'm not sure I see the logic behind giving Combined Human "Billions of Souls," since, as I see it, it'd make more sense that he has one really tough one. If he does have that many souls though, then I don't see why they'd be overly durable. Unlike other characters in Undertale, Sans' attacks can move right through Chara/Frisk's soul and do constant damage for as long as they are in contact. In most threads I've seen, Sans is Wall level without his Hax, so he really would only need one bone to destroy each and every one of Combined Human's souls, assuming they take up the same space and that they're of normal human durability.
Then there's the argument that Combined Human might not have a soul. However, Flowey warns you about Sans because he caused him to reset numerous times, and Flowey is a soulless flower. He never specifies if he actually fought Sans or not, but his warning implies that he did and that it wasn't easy.
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The logic of giving the CH billions of souls is that it is a melding of the experiences, memories and physical abilities of all humanity, and thus, gains their souls, resistances, and powers as well.DerpCity said:
"One bone per soul" I dunno, Let's assume that Chara had a soul a thousand times stronger than average, if this is the case, the CH's soul is a millio times stronger than Chara, or, if the CH has a multitude of souls, it's a gauntlet, each soul dying in one hit, yes, but furthermore, enough souls to survive the onslaught anyway.
You're powerscaling Sans to Flowey based on a warning that might not even be true, and stating outright that a character is soulless without confirmation. This is basically hyperbole.
Again, the CH has 100 billion souls, or one 100 billion times stronger than average. This is throwing peanuts at a continent level of mismatch here. Yes, speed is important, and Sans holds the edge here, but the longer the fight goes on, the more tired Sans will become, and eventually, the CH can get one hit in. One hit is all the CH needs. And, again, one hundred billion souls, melded into one gestalt monstrosity capable of absorbing massive amounts of damage, or a swarm brighter than the sun. Even if every attack Sans throws out kills ten average souls, the CH will bury him in bodies, so to speak.
If the CH is soulless, soul attacks are void, as they can target nothing at all. The CH has the combined will and grit of all of humanity, and people have kept fighting after having bones broken, nails driven through their bodies, being shot, burned, stabbed, electrocuted, poisoned, or bludgeoned by heavy objects (although not all at once. Human durability's a bit strange at times). The will of the CH is immense, and a solid wall to psychic and soul attacks, if willpower affects them.
Even without forewarning, even without knowledge, even without weapons, the CH will eventually tank hard enough to deplete Sans to his final technique. A few minutes after that, Sans will tire to the point of unconsiousness. A few seconds after that, a punch, kick or swing of a weapon will shatter Sans's skull, and the CH will walk away, smoking lightly.
As Khrushchev said to the U.S: "We will bury you."
Anyone have the vote count?
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Flowey having no soul is a plot point, though. Thats why he's the sadistic prick that he is and can't understand why you're so nice to him if you choose not to kill him at the end of the Omega Flowey fight. Hell, its on the Flowey page under his classification that he's a "Soulless being imbued with Determination" and on the Flowey page on the Undertale Wiki, it has a quote from Dr. Alphys, who made him what he is, where she says "I wonder... What happens when something without a SOUL gains the will to live?"
Here is Flowey's warning about Sans. I'll quote it in case you don't want to listen to the video. "DON'T. Let his (Papyrus's) brother. Find out ANYTHING about you. He'll... well... Let's just say... He caused me more than my fair share of resets. Stay away from that guy." The way Flowey words that implies that Sans killed him and caused him to reset, and that this happened multiple times.
I'm not sure where you're going with your willpower point. Willpower is never mentioned in Undertale, nor have I seen any real humans resist soul abuse through sheer willpower.
I said "so he really would only need one bone to destroy each and every one of Combined Human's souls", meaning one bone to kill all of his souls, not one bone per soul. If they're separate entities taking up the same space, then he destroys them all in one hit by hitting him at all, or if they're spread throughout his body he envelopes Combined Human with a laser from a Gaster Blaster and destroys them all. If it is considered one really tough soul, we don't know how tough the soul is. Combined Human doesn't have Resistance to Soul Manipulation on his profile, either, so the point on Souls is even more nullified.
Here is Flowey's warning about Sans. I'll quote it in case you don't want to listen to the video. "DON'T. Let his (Papyrus's) brother. Find out ANYTHING about you. He'll... well... Let's just say... He caused me more than my fair share of resets. Stay away from that guy." The way Flowey words that implies that Sans killed him and caused him to reset, and that this happened multiple times.
I'm not sure where you're going with your willpower point. Willpower is never mentioned in Undertale, nor have I seen any real humans resist soul abuse through sheer willpower.
I said "so he really would only need one bone to destroy each and every one of Combined Human's souls", meaning one bone to kill all of his souls, not one bone per soul. If they're separate entities taking up the same space, then he destroys them all in one hit by hitting him at all, or if they're spread throughout his body he envelopes Combined Human with a laser from a Gaster Blaster and destroys them all. If it is considered one really tough soul, we don't know how tough the soul is. Combined Human doesn't have Resistance to Soul Manipulation on his profile, either, so the point on Souls is even more nullified.
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