Saint Seiya speed downgrade.

[Doxten_]

Saint Seiya speed downgrade.
The interpretation of the feat of Hyperdimension here on this wiki is quite erroneous. When they enter Hyperdimension, it is very clear that space-time is distorted:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qTHscDFPoyc/VMqQAzu92pI/AAAAAAAACgE/Auyr6pMlgHI/s1600/10847855_1463834417091302_3918096514723338235_n.jpg

They took shortcuts in the space that facilitated the journey.
It is worth mentioning that Kurumada always draws distorted space with checkered lines, like the Other Dimension of Saga.

Putting Saint Seiya in MFTL is a huge inconsistency with Kurumada's own work, since the bronze saints didn't even fully dominate the 7th sense (speed of light) and suffered to slightly overcome the speed of light to destroy the main pillar of Poseidon. The biggest speed feat in Saint Seiya is only FTL.
Sorry if I made grammar mistakes, I am still learning the language.

 

[Xxiaa]

Pretty sure hyperdimension is implied to be a universe size place. Underworld which comes before the hyperdimension is stated many times as infinite. SS website even says some parts of the underworld are beyond space-time tho that’s kinda not in story material. Those scans are also kinda ehhh in quality

 

[Hasty12345]

very questionable translations here.

can you get the official or the raws for those panels?

Also, even if it's 12 light years, they had to travel that in less than 5 minutes iirc due to the eclipse, so it should still be MFTL+ (not to mention it could just be a miracle or an outlier for their base forms, Gods would still scale to the feat).

 

[Doxten_]

Okay, even if the hyperdimension is multi-galaxy/universe level, that doesn't change the fact that they went through shortcuts in distorted space. And as I said before, putting them as MFTL+ is a huge inconsistency with Kurumada's work. Yes they did a miracle, but it was just FTL.

 

[Hasty12345]

Okay, even if the hyperdimension is multi-galaxy/universe level, that doesn't change the fact that they went through shortcuts in distorted space. And as I said before, putting them as MFTL+ is a huge inconsistency with Kurumada's work. Yes they did a miracle, but it was just FTL.

you should ask Matt to comment here.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I have issues with a few speed calcs too but my view on super dimensional space will drastically differ from yours lol

 

[Doxten_]

you should ask Matt to comment here.

I don't know Matt, I'm new in VS Battle Wiki and I created an account just to try to fix this misinterpretation about the hyperdimension feat.

 

[Doxten_]

I already removed the scan about the hyperdimension size, the size isn't relevant.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Also, even if it's 12 light years, they had to travel that in less than 5 minutes iirc due to the eclipse, so it should still be MFTL+ (not to mention it could just be a miracle or an outlier for their base forms, Gods would still scale to the feat).

The scan only describes light years without giving any number.

Thanatos: たとえ何光年の彼方に離れていようとも パンドラのようになフフフフツ

The problem is that the user is using a bad translation in that scene.

In StS the distortions in time and space make the trip longer or difficult to get to a place, a good example is presented in Next Dimension where the distortion in the Sanctuary causes them to have problems crossing the path of the temples.

The distortion in Superdimension exists to generate a great pressure that destroys everything that enters that place.

 

[Doxten_]

The scan only describes light years without giving any number.

Thanatos: たとえ何光年の彼方に離れていようとも パンドラのようになフフフフツ

The problem is that the user is using a bad translation in that scene.

In StS the distortions in time and space make the trip longer or difficult to get to a place, a good example is presented in Next Dimension where the distortion in the Sanctuary causes them to have problems crossing the path of the temples.

The distortion in Superdimension exists to generate a great pressure that destroys everything that enters that place.

As I said before, the size of the hyperdimension is not relevant. The problem is that you take a feat out of context to say that they have MFTL + speed, even if it contradicts everything that had already been established by Kurumada. And no, spatial distortions are not only used to hinder the way, they are also used to cross distances, Saga can do that easily.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

As I said before, the size of the hyperdimension is not relevant. The problem is that you took a feat out of context to say that they have MFTL + speed, even if it contradicts everything that had already been established by Kurumada. And no, spatial distortions are not only used to hinder the way, they are also used to cross distances, Saga can do that easily.

Its size is important, because it indicates the distance that they crossed in that place. Saga only uses the Another Dimension to send the opponent to another dimension, it is even in the description of the technique on the official site, and the design is different, because in that technique it only creates a rift in time and space, this does not it is a distortion in time and space of the entire dimension as the superdimension.

In the manga it is never described that the Superdimension was a shortcut. The distortions in time and space make the path to a place longer or more difficult, this never really makes the path shorter in this manga.

 

[Kumagawaa]

I agree with Lancelot. In ND,spacetime was distorted and it took Dohko a longer time to get somewhere due to its distortion. Not to mention it would be impossible to prove that they are taking shortcuts. However the Hyperdimension feat only applies to their flight speed and not their actual travel speed.

 

[Doxten_]

Its size is important, because it indicates the distance that they crossed in that place. Saga only uses the Another Dimension to send the opponent to another dimension, it is even in the description of the technique on the official site, and the design is different, because in that technique it only creates a rift in time and space, this does not it is a distortion in time and space of the entire dimension as the superdimension.

In the manga it is never described that the Superdimension was a shortcut. The distortions in time and space make the path to a place longer or more difficult, this never really makes the path shorter in this franchise.

If that counts as MFTL + feat then it is a case of Plot-Induced Stupidity. My theory makes a lot more sense, especially when it comes to the vague style of writing that Kurumada adopts.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

If that counts as MFTL + feat then it is a case of Plot-Induced Stupidity. My theory makes a lot more sense, especially when it comes to the vague style of writing that Kurumada adopts.

This does not change that it is a good feat of flight speed for the protagonists. You indicate it yourself, what you propose is just a theory, because that is never described in the manga.

You should ask Matt to comment here.

What does he think about this topic?

Because from my point of view I do not find any problem with the feat of flight speed of the protagonists.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

OK, gonna debunk this. This is the official Viz translation and they NEVER claim they're using a shortcut. They imply the opposite, that they're traveling all the way via flight and the Super Dimensional space was fighting them every step of the way.

First off, when they see space and time in flux, they state it's a danger to themselves and that's why only Gods can pass through. They state the light is the "Way to Elysium" nothing about it being a shortcut, just the path they need to take. When they're knocked away by the space-time flux, they state they're being pulled away from Elysium, and again, no mention about shortcuts or wormholes. Again, the only mention of the space-time flux is pulling them away from it and trying to crush them with pressure. Seiya explicitly grows wings to fly to Elysium and that's where we get the famous feat from with narration implicitly confirming they flew all the way there. We even see an exhausted Seiya in Elysium after his flight, which wouldn't make sense if he took a shortcut and contradicts the earlier scan. Shiryu and Hyoga also state they plan to fly to Elysium and that the main danger is the space-time flux crushes those who enter without a god's protection. So does Pandora. Even all the way back during the explanation, Libra Dohko states if you're not a god, the space-time flux would repel you from Elysium or suck you into super dimensional space.

There's no statements or claims of shortcuts, and everything indicates the opposite, that the flight was hard and long.

 

[Doxten_]

They suffered to slightly overcome the speed of light to destroy the main pillar of Poseidon.
Poseidon speed: slightly FTL
Hades speed: MFTL+
lol, good logic.
so according to you two, all of Kurumada's past statements are wrong?
There is also no statement about overcoming the speed of light sextillion times. This is a calculation that the members of this wiki made in an interpretation of an extremely vague feat.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

They suffered to slightly overcome the speed of light to destroy the main pillar of Poseidon.
Poseidon speed: slightly FTL
Hades speed: MFTL+
lol, good logic.
so according to you two, all of Kurumada's past statements are wrong?
There is also no statement about overcoming the speed of light sextillion times. This is a calculation that the members of this wiki made in an interpretation of an extremely vague feat.

Calculations > statements. There's been instances of seiya dodging light speed attacks at point blank range. Remember seiya effortlessly dodging 100 million light speed punches point blank?

He also Dodged a Light Speed attack in his 1st fight aganist aioloa. He moved so fast Aiolia lost sight of him.

He also reacted to Aldy's light speed attacks, and even aldy light sight of him

Light Speed is the base level of the 7th sense, and by increasing their cosmo they can move even faster which is directly stated in Episode G

Now, I do agree.. There are some issues wiht a couple of calc's but i don't see them as downgrades. The issues i have wiht a couple of them would lead to upgrades.

 

[Doxten_]

Calculations > statements. There's been instances of seiya disging light speed attacks at pint blank range. Remember seiya effortlessly dodging 100 million light speed punches point blank?

Wtf, why are their statements valid and mine not?

Dodging 100 million attacks at the speed of light is not proof of MFTL + speed, according to the series itself this is just speed of light. You can't take the guy's work and change all the logic he has established just to put the characters in the tier you want.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Wtf, why are their statements valid and mine not?

Dodging 100 million attacks at the speed of light is not proof of MFTL + speed, according to the series itself this is just speed of light. You can't take the guy's work and change all the logic he has established just to put the characters in the tier you want.

Thats what the wiki does. A moment like this is called "P.I.S" Plot induced stupidity. Edit 2: I guess you could say this is Author Induced Stupidity lol. as the statements don't line up with the actual movements of the characters.

which is basically The statements are not consistent with the actual act of the velocity of the movement.

I also edited the comment you quotes.

Edit: Also yes dodging a light speed attack can make you MFTL under certain circumstances.

 

[Doxten_]

Thats what the wiki does. A moment like this is called "P.I.S" Plot induced stupidity.

which is basically The statements are not consistent with the actual act of the velocity of the movement.

I also edited the comment you quotes.

Edit: Also yes dodging a light speed attack can make you MFTL under certain circumstances.

"A moment like this is called "P.I.S" Plot induced stupidity." I agree, I even mentioned it above, but the problem here is that the members take Saint Seiya very literally, and this is certainly not Kurumada's writing style, he is quite vague and uses a lot of hyperbole, even going through billions of "LIGHTS" (he does not specify be galaxies) can be hyperbole.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

They suffered to slightly overcome the speed of light to destroy the main pillar of Poseidon.
Poseidon speed: slightly FTL
Hades speed: MFTL+
lol, good logic.
so according to you two, all of Kurumada's past statements are wrong?
There is also no statement about overcoming the speed of light sextillion times. This is a calculation that the members of this wiki made in an interpretation of an extremely vague feat.

Which statements, Kurumada even indicates that the protagonists can exceed the speed of light, we also saw that Poseidon's attacks are faster than Seiya at that time, and Kanon even exceeds the speed of Poseidon's trident to protect Athena. Nowhere does Kurumada indicate that they only exceed the speed of light slightly.

Kurumada even draws a feat of faster-than-light speed when the Bronze Saints cross the Superdimension.

In addition, few authors describe the speed of their characters, and almost none describe them as massively flt, a good example is Dragon Ball, where only Dyspo is described as faster than light, but it is never described as being thousands of times faster.

"A moment like this is called "P.I.S" Plot induced stupidity." I agree, I even mentioned it above, but the problem here is that the members take Saint Seiya very literally, and this is certainly not Kurumada's writing style, he is quite vague and uses a lot of hyperbole, even going through billions of "LIGHTS" (he does not specify be galaxies) can be hyperbole.

In the image the author draws galaxies in that scene and it is even described that Pandora was light years away from the Elyseum, therefore, what you indicate is just a theory based on nothing.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

"A moment like this is called "P.I.S" Plot induced stupidity." I agree, I even mentioned it above, but the problem here is that the members take Saint Seiya very literally, and this is certainly not Kurumada's writing style, he is quite vague and uses a lot of hyperbole, even going through billions of "LIGHTS" (he does not specify be galaxies) can be hyperbole.

He uses quiet a few hyperbole's and metaphors to describe the structure of the underworld before the Super Dimensional Space was introduced

Also, isn't it stated somewhere that there is no light in the underworld? pretty sure that was the whole spew of no sunlight in the underworld. (unless they meant something with apollo.)

 

[Doxten_]

Which statements, Kurumada even indicates that the protagonists can exceed the speed of light, we also saw that Poseidon's attacks are faster than Seiya at that time, and Kanon even exceeds the speed of Poseidon's trident to protect Athena. Nowhere does Kurumada indicate that they only exceed the speed of light slightly. In addition, few authors describe the speed of their characters, and almost none describe them as massively flt, a good example is Dragon Ball, where only Dyspo is described as faster than light, but it is never described as being thousands of times faster. We simply calculate your speed through feats.

Kurumada even draws a feat of faster-than-light speed when the Bronze Saints cross the Superdimension.

Yes they can exceed the speed of light, but it is not sextillion times.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Yes they can exceed the speed of light, but it is not sextillion times.

They do not have to describe it, when the author draws a feat of speed of that level. We have a calculation and a feat of faster-than-light speed in the manga.

In the story itself the author even describes that they can exceed the speed of light, he never indicates that they only slightly exceed it as you want to believe.

So if an author doesn't accurately describe the speed of their characters, we can't get their speed from the feats of the character in the story, maybe the whole wikia is wrong to assume the speed of characters that were never described by the authors with that speed in his story. If a character is not described by the author as faster than light then he will never be able to get that speed regardless of his feats, if a character is not described as supersonic by the author he will never get that speed even if we saw him dodge hundreds of bullets.

 

[Doxten_]

Which statements, Kurumada even indicates that the protagonists can exceed the speed of light, we also saw that Poseidon's attacks are faster than Seiya at that time, and Kanon even exceeds the speed of Poseidon's trident to protect Athena. Nowhere does Kurumada indicate that they only exceed the speed of light slightly.

Kurumada even draws a feat of faster-than-light speed when the Bronze Saints cross the Superdimension.

In addition, few authors describe the speed of their characters, and almost none describe them as massively flt, a good example is Dragon Ball, where only Dyspo is described as faster than light, but it is never described as being thousands of times faster.

In the image the author draws galaxies in that scene and it is even described that Pandora was light years away from the Elyseum, therefore, what you indicate is just a theory based on nothing.

Seiya exceeding the speed of light sextillion times is also just a theory based on a vague feat. And I don't need to mention that the distorted space could be used to facilitate the travel, distorted spaces can be used both to help and to hinder. Don't forget that Hades and the twin gods also need to go through hyperdimension to reach the elysium. The only real problem there was being disintegrated.

 

[Doxten_]

They do not have to describe it, when the author draws a feat of speed of that level. We have a calculation and a feat of faster-than-light speed in the manga.

In the story itself the author even describes that they can exceed the speed of light, he never indicates that they only slightly exceed it as you want to believe.

So if an author doesn't accurately describe the speed of their characters, we can't get their speed from the feats of the character in the story, maybe the whole wikia is wrong to assume the speed of characters that were never described by the authors with that speed in his story.

Dragon Ball is a very literal anime, Saint Seiya is not.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Dragon Ball is a very literal anime, Saint Seiya is not.

Saint Seiya is not different from Dragon Ball, even in Dragon Ball it is never described that a character exceeds thousands of times the speed of light, we only have feats that we calculate to obtain that speed as in Saint Seiya, and this happens in many series within of this wikia.

Seiya exceeding the speed of light sextillion times is also just a theory based on a vague feat. And I don't need to mention that the distorted space could be used to facilitate the travel, distorted spaces can be used both to help and to hinder. Don't forget that Hades and the twin gods also need to go through hyperdimension to reach the elysium. The only real problem there was being disintegrated.

It is not a vague feat, when even the galaxies that they cross in that scene are shown and Elysium is even described as being light years from that place. Instead, everything you indicate is just a theory, because none of that is described in the manga.

What was described about the superdimension in the manga was even explained in detail in a previous comment.

OK, gonna debunk this. This is the official Viz translation and they NEVER claim they're using a shortcut. They imply the opposite, that they're traveling all the way via flight and the Super Dimensional space was fighting them every step of the way.

First off, when they see space and time in flux, they state it's a danger to themselves and that's why only Gods can pass through. They state the light is the "Way to Elysium" nothing about it being a shortcut, just the path they need to take. When they're knocked away by the space-time flux, they state they're being pulled away from Elysium, and again, no mention about shortcuts or wormholes. Again, the only mention of the space-time flux is pulling them away from it and trying to crush them with pressure. Seiya explicitly grows wings to fly to Elysium and that's where we get the famous feat from with narration implicitly confirming they flew all the way there. We even see an exhausted Seiya in Elysium after his flight, which wouldn't make sense if he took a shortcut and contradicts the earlier scan. Shiryu and Hyoga also state they plan to fly to Elysium and that the main danger is the space-time flux crushes those who enter without a god's protection. So does Pandora. Even all the way back during the explanation, Libra Dohko states if you're not a god, the space-time flux would repel you from Elysium or suck you into super dimensional space.

There's no statements or claims of shortcuts, and everything indicates the opposite, that the flight was hard and long.

They don't need it, even Athena can send the Bronze Saints back to Earth with the bubbles that she creates in the battle against Hades.

The superdimension is just one dimension that separates Elysium and the Underworld.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

if you want to get technical about the speed. Super Dimensional Space can double as an immeasurable speed feat more for the gods

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

if you want to get technical about the speed. Super Dimensional Space can double as an immeasurable speed feat more for the gods

It's probably a much more impressive feat.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

It's probably a much more impressive feat.

imo it can be either infinite or immeasurable.

I believe immeasurable speed fits best. because both space ad time are undefined. Their in flux and distorted. Distance can change to a few feet to light years away. Time can be in the present then suddenly be sent back to many years in the past.

+ Dohko says it can send you to "another dimension" aka another Universe and if we know what their cosmology is like. Another Universe is basically another time flow/history.

 

[Xxiaa]

imo it can be either infinite or immeasurable.

I believe immeasurable speed fits best. because both space ad time are undefined. Their in flux and distorted. Distance can change to a few feet to light years away. Time can be in the present then suddenly be sent back to many years in the past.

+ Dohko says it can send you to "another dimension" aka another Universe and if we know what their cosmology is like. Another Universe is basically another time flow/history.

Wouldn’t them moving in the underworld which has many statements saying it’s infinite be infinite speed for the cast and anyone moving in it? There’s also the whole 8th prison located beyond space time

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Wouldn’t them moving in the underworld which has many statements saying it’s infinite be infinite speed for the cast and anyone moving in it? There’s also the whole 8th prison located beyond space time

The 8th sense ting i plan on looking at very closely. I have plans to translate it myself and stuff. problem is finding time

but the saints traversing through the underworld are sstated to be using Portals in the taizen.

 

[Xxiaa]

The 8th sense ting i plan on looking at very closely. I have plans to translate it myself and stuff. problem is finding time

but the saints traversing through the underworld are sstated to be using Portals in the taizen

How does the taizen stack up to current ss? Wouldn’t it be outdated ? Also manga /anime > any form of data book. I believe even Elysium is stated as infinite

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

From what I seen on the wiki. When it comes to Databooks you pick what is consistent with each work and what is inconsistent is disregarded without further proof.

 

[Doxten_]

"Infinite speed", "immeasurable speed", wtf
This the most absurd thing that I have ever read in that wiki. Kurumada would be horrified if he saw this.

Can someone please close this thread? This discussion has become meaningless.

 

[Hasty12345]

"Infinite speed", "immeasurable speed", wtf
This the most absurd thing that I have ever read in that wiki. Kurumada would be horrified if he saw this.

Can someone please close this thread? This discussion has become meaningless.

Even if it's an outlier for their base forms, nothing would change for God Cloths as the Gods can casually do what they did, so this discussion is meaningless.

 

[Planck69]

@Doxten_

What the author thinks is irrelevant to how feats are portrayed. I'm fairly sure this is specified in one of our pages.

Anyway, anyone have a problem with me closing this? This seems to have been unanimously rejected.

 

[Hasty12345]

@Doxten_

What the author thinks is irrelevant to how feats are portrayed. I'm fairly sure this is specified in one of our pages.

Anyway, anyone have a problem with me closing this? This seems to have been unanimously rejected.

not at all, the OP wants it closed so go ahead.

 

[Planck69]

Alright then.