Saint-14 Upgrade and Destiny powerscaling outline

[Wokistan]

Powerscaling

In general, we think we've figured out a pretty good powerscaling network for Destiny characters without explicit feats. It goes as follows:

(At least) 5-C: Baseline for most named characters, scaling off of the Tai Emperor destroying a moon, Oryx and his sister's low ends (As in, Oryx took it as a joke and this was before billions of years getting stronger), random Taken being able to blow up a moon, the Hive using moons as weapons. People do still need a reason to scale to here though. Most strike bosses end up like this.

At least 5-C, possibly 4-B: Baseline for exceptionally powerful Guardians. Scaling off of material Oryx and others of similar levels of power. Weaker Raid Bosses like The Warpriest also occupy this tier. (Oryx however should maintain likely as opposed to possibly, and maybe some others. That is case by case and relatively unimportant.)

At least 4-C, possibly 4-B: Beings on the level of Oryx's childre when they're in their ascendant realms. Most final raid bosses should probably be around here due to Crota, Oryx's son, being one. This also includes beings such as Riven of a Thousand Voices who are blatantly weaker than Oryx's full strength but are still able to affect him to a rather significant degree.

At least 4-B, possibly far higher: The strongest beings. As of now, it's basically just Oryx's second key, the PC, and Osiris while in the Vex network. The "far higher" may change to something more concrete in the future but we're still working on that.

Sadly Gorgon (Destiny) retains its unknown since it doesn't really have AP

Saint-14
I and my affiliates believe that Saint-14 should be rated as "At least 5-C, possibly 4-B. Much of the reasoning for this is already on the file and I just decided not to post the file like this because I guess I was feeling conservative, but looking back I don't think this is necessary. However, let's go over it again:

• Saint-14 was the Titan Vanguard commander at the same time that Osiris was, which indicates that they should be comparable as for one member of the Vanguard to far outshine the other two makes no sense. Osiris is referred to as "THE Osiris? The most powerful Guardian ever?" by the ghost of the guardian that killed Oryx, the Taken King. Clearly that Ghost knows of the high end characters since it's yours, and yet Osiris still earns this sort of praise from him. (He'll get a profile eventually)

• To further cement that Osiris shouldn't be unfathomably more powerful than Saint-14, they at one point get into a brief scuffle where Saint-14 blocks his strike then blasts him back. Now they're obviously not trying to kill one another, I am aware of that, but durability isn't exactly something one can just lower at a whim.

• Saint-14 fought the Vex for centuries, and only died becuase the Vex made a specific "Anti Saint-14 Mind". The Vex once gave Oryx's kids a lot of trouble, stalemating them for a century before Oryx came home and demolished them. Thus, the Vex clearly have minds capable of dealing with tier 4s, and yet Saint-14 still required a specifically dedicated mind to be felled.

• The Ghost of the PC refers to Saint-14 as unusually powerful and one of the greatest titans to ever live. The PC is going to end up at least being a solid 4-B, btw.

TLDR

• Saint-14 goes to "At least 5-C, possibly 4-B

• Riven of a Thousand Voices goes to "At least 4-C, possibly 4-B

• A powerscaling network of in verse tiers a la Comics and Warhammer is set up that most people can scale to in absence of their own feats

 

[Wokistan]

Aaaand just noticed that the link to the comic is weird. The brief scuffle between Saint-14 and Osiris is on pages 5/6.

 

[Moritzva]

Seems reasonable enough for me.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Can I see this moon busting feat that fodder taken can do?

 

[Wokistan]

It's already linked on his page but here

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/sacrilege?highlight=destroy+Ioa

Control+F "Implode"

I will note that I don't think we should have a file for random ass fodder at 5-C nor does every strike boss need a file. This is just a really low end for noteworthy characters.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Asher: All channels. This is a skyshock alert! Someone or something drew the Taken here!

Ikora: Asher Mir? Is that you?

Asher: Irrelevant! The Taken are sapping the moon's energy. I hypothesize that Io will implode if someone does not intervene!

Ikora: Guardian, we cannot lose this sacred place. Do what must be done. Stop the Taken.

I may not be understanding this properly, but it states a group of Taken are absorbing the energy of the moon and if it continues the moon will implode. Isn't this is an unquantifable feat since we don't know how many taken was involved in this, nor how they were absorbing the energy.

Wouldn't this be like making the vex 5-B because they can terraform the planet?

 

[Wokistan]

Don't act like you're not questioning this just because you want Yhwach to be back to the king of 5-C ovo

It's fine because the PC fights them all at once and kills them all at once. That they're capable of doing that means they're capable of handling that sort of power, but they couldn't handle yours. If the PC just killed like one of them it wouldn't really work, but singular guardians are sent in to wipe out groups like this.

Vex terraforming takes time. Theoretically if its fast enough terraforming can give you a KE value. However, this was imminent, which can be drawn from Asher's frantic tone of voice and all.

In general we're gonna try and stay away from making things for people who aren't really compared to anyone or have no hype or notable stuff of their own, to avoid issues of inflated ratings. Saint-14 is exceptional, and as gone over above can feasibly scale to tier 4 things.

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

Seems reasonable enough

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Wokistan

Don't act like you're not questioning this just because you want Yhwach to be back to the king of 5-C ovo

xD

It's fine because the PC fights them all at once and kills them all at once. That they're capable of doing that means they're capable of handling that sort of power, but they couldn't handle yours. If the PC just killed like one of them it wouldn't really work, but singular guardians are sent in to wipe out groups like this.

I watched the 7 min video and we don't even see how they're doing it. What we see is 3 wizards opening a portal to summon the rest of the Taken to absorb the remaining energy the traveler has left on the moon which the guardian stops by killing the 3 wizards.

Vex terraforming takes time. Theoretically if its fast enough terraforming can give you a KE value. However, this was imminent, which can be drawn from Asher's frantic tone of voice and all.

I'm not sure this was exactly imminent plus what he said didn't make much sense, the moon has energy in the form of heat. Absorbing that energy wouldn't cause it to explode just simply cool down.What the moon does have that is quantifable is rotational kinetic energy (RKE) and if i'm correct it is like High 6-B but you should ask someone in the calc group.

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=rotational+kinetic+energy+of+Io

In general we're gonna try and stay away from making things for people who aren't really compared to anyone or have no hype or notable stuff of their own, to avoid issues of inflated ratings. Saint-14 is exceptional, and as gone over above can feasibly scale to tier 4 things.

Understandable, I don't have a issue with Saint-14 scaling just the feat itself.

 

[Wokistan]

I think you may have inverted your bolding there

I don't see why how specifically they're doing it is especially important though? Asher clearly says the moon is gonna implode if nobody goes down there and stops them, and we do that by killing them all and closing the portal. My best guess would be that it's due to the portal which the Taken themselves open, given how Ascendant space doesn't play nice with reality. Hell, Oryx once used his as a weapon to blow a hole in Saturn's rings. Anyways it still stands that we kill the Taken boss who seems to sustain the existence of this hole in reality threatening the moon and close it under our own power.

I think the outcome here is the more important part, which is the implosion of the moon rather than the RKE being absorbed. Absorbing its RKE shouldn't cause it to implode, it'd just stop moving.

Yeah scaling down here is annoying since all the good and blatant moon level feats (Xivu Arath, Tai emperor, Oryx himself) scale to Oryx and his low end, but remember that dudes like the vanguard shouldn't be overwhelmingly weaker than the PC who fights material Oryx since you learn from them and the Vanguard is generally among the strongest. You have brought my attention to how really low end scaling may be a bit shaky though, so I'll see what I can do about that.

Also just remembered that Hiraks, the Mindbender, could pull asteroids in and out of reality. It's not strictly 5-C but it's a nice cosmic level feat to support such a rating.

Regardless, given that even you support Saint-14 (not an insult, having a skeptic to question my stuff is actually a good thing), I doubt i'm gonna get much opposition on that front. Gonna wait for some more input anyways though.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Wokistan

How they're doing it is important imo because then we would have a much easier time to accurately quantify the feat since it's pretty vague outside of them absoring energy as a group making it a joint feat for sure.

The outcome is a a theoretical chain reaction though that I don't think they should scale to, Asher isn't sure what would happened which probably means it didn't happened before at least to his knowledge. The actual feat is absorbing the energy of the moon and the effect is the moon will potentally implode which is likely destiny psuedo science in comparsion to an actual scientific fact. What we do know is the moon has energy and that absorbing it is quantifable.

I don't think pulling asteroids in and out of reality is a 5-C feat unless were assuming the asteroids have moon level AP.

 

[WHYNAUT]

I'm neutral on the Io feat, but other than that I fully support these ratings.

 

[Wokistan]

I can continue to argue about the moon thing a bit later, but I think it's safe enough to say that I can make the edits to Saint-14 and Riven's tierings. Gonna leave this open though.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

I'll work on a response for the Moon ratings, the last comment I had got deleted in my browser.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

The moon feat on Io likely isn't referring to the rotational energy of the moon. Io is the last place the Traveller touched and it still greatly flows with its energy. As we see earlier in the mission in question, the Cabal were even sapping this energy to prepare for the final steps with the Traveller.

The Taken on Io have a special connection to this energy as well as we see them appearing in the pilgrimage missions on Io to expand the subclasses. Given all of this information in context, it's most reasonable to think they were talking about the energy of the Traveller which has consistently empowered people in the Books of Sorrow to deal with other 5-C beings.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Then it's unquantifable, if it's not rotational energy. Since the moon implosion would be a side effect of the energy being drained and not a direct feat by any of the Taken.

 

[Wokistan]

I feel like the actual feat is what's more important here. If they're able to destroy a moon, they can destroy a moon. Lot of other objects haven't been touched by the Traveller and haven't imploded yet.

Nearly everyone who wouldn't get the tier 4 can in some way be backscaled from material Oryx level feats anyways. The Hiraks thing isn't strictly 5-C yeah it's just there to show that the idea of characters having the power to effect celestial bodies like this is legit a thing and not coming out of some weird extrapolation or calc or whatever.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

The feat is absorbing the energy of the moon that's the thing, not actually them destroying it since it's a theoretical side effect of what could happened if all the energy of the traveler was absorbed.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Wokistan seems to make sense, but it is best to politely ask some other staff members to evaluate this as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Does the Destiny page have any knowledgeable members listed that can be asked as well?

 

[WHYNAUT]

Galaxian, Sigurd and I are knowledgeable members too.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

What more needs to be decided here? Is it just the Taken feat that is in contention or is there something else?

 

[WHYNAUT]

That's the only thing.

 

[Wokistan]

Profiles are already updated and I can't really think of anyone who can't somehow be backscaled from material Oryx or the PC who's relevant, but we should probably still hash out the taken thing.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

Well I think that there's really no problem with the feat at all. We know the feat requires a certain amount of energy to do which we believe is found in the energy of the Traveller. Regardless of the circumstances, the Taken are capable of harnessing and using that power to achieve the result of imploding the moon.

I fail to see why the feat is unquantifiable when we know the object in question as well as the energy we are dealing with. Perhaps we need someone else to have another evaluation?

 

[Archaron]

Galaxian, Sigurd and I are knowledgeable members too.

You guys are not the only one. Also has been apply?

 

[GalaxianAegis]

All of the relevant changes have already been applied, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we close this thread?

 

[WHYNAUT]

I think so, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.