Saint seiya dowgrade

[Saiyan40009]

Zeus should not have conceptual manipulation, he does not have any feats, there are not even scans, he can do this.The only gods that have shown that ability are hades that manipulates the concept of death and eris of chaos, but it has always been shown that there are God unique qualities that no possesses at least speaking feat conceptual manipulation I think they should be drained

 

[Hasty12345]

Disagree.

 

[Saiyan40009]

there are literally zero scans that support a conceptual manipulation

 

[Hasty12345]

His profile needs to be updated.

I’m working on overhauling the gods in the near future, but IMO the ability is justified.

If you want this can be closed until I make my CRT where he can argue the validity later? I rather not waste time debating this here. Of course you don’t have to if you don’t want to.

 

[AlexZiggy]

Hmmm.
I wouldn't say it is unreasonable to assume that Zeus, being a god much like Hades and Eris wouldn't share their same conceptual nature as them. It's hard to pinpoint what the concept he represents is however.

 

[Saiyan40009]

we are based on suppositions hades and eris have been unique they demonstrated ability as hades is the only god capable of being underworld or eris that there are literally few gods who live in discord that shows that the gods have their unique powers

 

[Hasty12345]

Also, I’m really confused.

I find it very hard to believe you can spell “conceptual manipulation” in the main body of the text, but misspell “Saint Seiya” (the verse you’re downgrading) and “downgrade”.

was this thrown into google translate like 4 times?

edit: yes I feel like a dick for asking, but most usually big CRT’s such as a topic a important as this one have lots of effort put into it, and I just find it odd the title has typo’s but the larger bodies of text don’t. I’m derailing ik, I’ll stop.

 

[AlexZiggy]

His profile needs to be updated.

I’m working on overhauling the gods in the near future, but IMO the ability is justified.

If you want this can be closed until I make my CRT where he can argue the validity later? I rather not waste time debating this here. Of course you don’t have to if you don’t want to.

Could you TL;DR the reasons you think the ability should stay for the purposes of this thread?

 

[Hasty12345]

Could you TL;DR the reasons you think the ability should stay for the purposes of this thread?

Yeah, all gods derive their abilities from the divine will (yes it’s singular), of which. Zeus’ is seconded only by Chronos. To say the second strongest Olympian (Hades) and weakest Olympian (Eris) can manipulate concepts with their use of the Divine Will but Zeus can’t is just plane illogical.

the gods only have unique abilities as far as their concept is concerned, hence why Hades has death hax. Zeus should by all means have conceptual manipulation, what unique abilities are tied to his concept is what’s unknown. Hence why his profile is more or less empty and has like, no unique hax at this time.

 

[Saiyan40009]

the divine will never mentioned official kurumada obstacles and it has been reconfigured contradicting many things in the work, it is more the chonos and zeus have different origins, the hypermito raises

 

[Hasty12345]

Can’t even read that.

 

[AlexZiggy]

Yeah, all gods derive their abilities from the divine will (yes it’s singular), of which. Zeus’ is seconded only by Chronos. To say the second strongest Olympian (Hades) and weakest Olympian (Eris) can manipulate concepts with their use of the Divine Will but Zeus can’t is just plane illogical.

the gods only have unique abilities as far as their concept is concerned, hence why Hades has death hax. Zeus should by all means have conceptual manipulation, what unique abilities are tied to his concept is what’s unknown. Hence why his profile is more or less empty and has like, no unique hax at this time.

Yeah, I agree with everything you said. I haven't read G Assassin, but doesn't he showcase anything new in Aiolia's body? I know he used him as a host

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Disagree

I'll explain more at some point in the future. I'm currently at work

But

The Divine Will of the God's + Dunamis are conceptual in nature

 

[Hasty12345]

Yeah, I agree with everything you said. I haven't read G Assassin, but doesn't he showcase anything new in Aiolia's body? I know he used him as a host

There’s stuff in G that supports Zeus’ CM, but a lot of Down players who use alts to make CRTs to fish for arguments will ignore that it’s canon, so I stuck with Classic stuffs

 

[Saiyan40009]

Quizás quisiste decir: traductor

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Quisiste decir:
ahora el hipermito ni siquiera canon por kurumada todo que viene hypermito a sido reconfigurado o borrado canon a si que ese no un argumento para defender su pocisiom






Now the hypermito not even canon for kuramada everything that comes hypermito has been reconfigured or deleted canon so that is not an argument to defend its position

 

[Hasty12345]

The hyper myth is currently accepted as canon on the wiki, if you wish to remove it, it will require a separate CRT regarding canonicity of the Hyper Myth.

so go do that.

until you do, this should be closed.

 

[Saiyan40009]

​

Refrain from commenting on the divine will of Nisiquera canonical entity the hypermito was not a Kurumada writer is currently contradicted by all works nor does it appear official chro

 

[Saiyan40009]

can be shown where we accept hypermito we only accept the work of the official chronology presented

 

[Hasty12345]

I can’t read that, but unless you’re saying you’re gonna go make a CRT to remove the currently accepted canonicity of the Hypermyth, it doesn’t matter what you said.

 

[Saiyan40009]

Like all wiki if something that is wrong has to be changed and hypermito not even chronology unless you accept that hades and poseidon were human things that noi work is mentioned and that is contradicted

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The divine will is literally used in the classic series and stated........

Even the Taizen uses it.....

Lost canvas...

Episode G....

And Requiem is confirming what the taizem implied which is the Divine Will being the 10th sense...

Direct statements...

 

[Saiyan40009]

The classic series does not mention any moment of the divine will, it is more hades, it is called the son of the chonos or episode required, it is only increase power up although it contradicts maximum sense 8 eighth in the classic series and they are never mentioned or that Kurumada even participated in the hypermito

 

[Hasty12345]

the 2001 Hyper Myth is considered canon, it’s on the verse page:

Saint Seiya

Saint Seiya/Knights Of The Zodiac is a manga by Masami Kurumada from 1986 to 1991. It told the story of the Saints, a group of powerful warriors who are sworn to fight as the army of the Goddess Athena. Along the series, they face various Holy Wars against Deities who wish to claim Athena's...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Saiyan40009]

I'll be back in a while I have some urgencies ma
I will argue for a while

 

[Hasty12345]

Like all wiki if something that is wrong has to be changed and hypermito not even chronology unless you accept that hades and poseidon were human things that noi work is mentioned and that is contradicted

The fact you said this and think it debunks the validity of the Hyper Myth brings into doubt you know what the Hyper Myth even is.

it’s research paper by the Graad Foundation, and yes some of it is wrong, the Graad foundation doesn’t know the origin of the gods, but nothing contradicts the points I brought up.

 

[Hasty12345]

I'll be back in a while I have some urgencies ma
I will argue for a while

Well good luck and I hope all is well.

but this CRT requires you to change the currently accepted canon for the verse which will require you to make a separate CRT.

So this should be closed until that happens.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I agree with this.

His profile needs to be updated.

I’m working on overhauling the gods in the near future, but IMO the ability is justified.

If you want this can be closed until I make my CRT where he can argue the validity later? I rather not waste time debating this here. Of course you don’t have to if you don’t want to.

For the moment we can remove this, if you have evidence of conceptual manipulation in the future we will add it to the page when that CRT is accepted.

Hmmm.
I wouldn't say it is unreasonable to assume that Zeus, being a god much like Hades and Eris wouldn't share their same conceptual nature as them. It's hard to pinpoint what the concept he represents is however.

Eris is more powerful than Zeus in Saintia Sho, because she increases his power with the discord of the world, and Hades is a god of death, a god who represents something different from Zeus, who is described as the god of lightning.

Also the gods have different abilities in this franchise, for example Hades is the only god that can resurrect and grant eternal life to mortals, even a god of his level like Athena and Poseidon do not have that power, therefore gods can have unique abilities that other gods do not possess.

the 2001 Hyper Myth is considered canon, it’s on the verse page:

Saint Seiya

Saint Seiya/Knights Of The Zodiac is a manga by Masami Kurumada from 1986 to 1991. It told the story of the Saints, a group of powerful warriors who are sworn to fight as the army of the Goddess Athena. Along the series, they face various Holy Wars against Deities who wish to claim Athena's...

vsbattles.fandom.com

This means nothing, because there is no evidence of such material as canon.

Even the 30th anniversary site and the official timeline do not include the Hypermyth in the list of Saint Seiya's works.

聖闘士星矢

聖闘士星矢30周年公式サイト

seiya30th.com

軌跡｜MUSEUM｜聖闘士星矢

聖闘士星矢の軌跡を紹介するページです。

saintseiya-official.com

And these two sites are used as an example of the canon on the Wiki page about the Saint Seiya franchise.

Yeah, all gods derive their abilities from the divine will (yes it’s singular), of which. Zeus’ is seconded only by Chronos. To say the second strongest Olympian (Hades) and weakest Olympian (Eris) can manipulate concepts with their use of the Divine Will but Zeus can’t is just plane illogical.

the gods only have unique abilities as far as their concept is concerned, hence why Hades has death hax. Zeus should by all means have conceptual manipulation, what unique abilities are tied to his concept is what’s unknown. Hence why his profile is more or less empty and has like, no unique hax at this time.

The status of a god is irrelevant when talking about its abilities, and this could only indicate which speed, durability and power is comparable or higher than the other gods. The abilities are somewhat different, and the gods in this franchise may have unique abilities that other gods of their level do not possess. A stronger character does not automatically gain the abilities of a weaker character.

Just post an example from the original manga or main universe where Zeus uses conceptual manipulation or mentions that he has that power or ability.

I can’t read that, but unless you’re saying you’re gonna go make a CRT to remove the currently accepted canonicity of the Hypermyth, it doesn’t matter what you said.

As far as I remember Hypermyth was never accepted as canon. Even there is no link to explain why this work is canon and what was Kurumada's participation in its realization.

In addition, in the Hypermyth there is no mention of any conceptual manipulation of Zeus or something that indicates that this god has this ability.

The divine will is literally used in the classic series and stated........

Even the Taizen uses it.....

Lost canvas...

Episode G....

And Requiem is confirming what the taizem implied which is the Divine Will being the 10th sense...

Direct statements...

This is never mentioned in the original manga in that way, and neither is it mentioned in the sequel or the author's new works such as Zero, Origin and Destiny.

Disagree

I'll explain more at some point in the future. I'm currently at work

But

The Divine Will of the God's + Dunamis are conceptual in nature

No, this is never said in the manga.

 

[Saiyan40009]

Dunamys is not another type of energy either, since it calls it creative energy and another destroys the cosmo, also a force that is a nature that is not conceptual.

 

[StekFence]

Dunamys is not another type of energy either, since it calls it creative energy and another destroys the cosmo, also a force that is a nature that is not conceptual.

still require a crt anyway. Ur entire premise relies on an idea that needs a crt first,

 

[StekFence]

Zeus should not have conceptual manipulation, he does not have any feats, there are not even scans, he can do this.The only gods that have shown that ability are hades that manipulates the concept of death and eris of chaos, but it has always been shown that there are God unique qualities that no possesses at least speaking feat conceptual manipulation I think they should be drained

He gets it from scaling to Hades, cos universal power system.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

He gets it from scaling to Hades, cos universal power system.

This is not the case. A stronger character does not get the abilities of a weaker character, especially when the two gods represent something completely different in their universe, and the gods have different abilities that other gods do not have.

Also, some descriptions in the manga seem to indicate that he is not stronger than Hades, since Hypnos says that the vessel where Athena was trapped cannot be destroyed even by Zeus' lightning, but Hades' sword can destroy it.

 

[Urshani]

the only way to downgrade saint seiya, is to change the wiki's standards to make it use on screen feats only

I disagree with the CRT.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Also, some descriptions in the manga seem to indicate that he is not stronger than Hades, since Hypnos says that the vessel where Athena was trapped cannot be destroyed even by Zeus' lightning, but Hades' sword can destroy it.

Actually there quiet a few statements between taizen and the classic that suggest their comparable to some degree.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Actually there quiet a few statements between taizen and the classic that suggest their comparable to some degree.

Yes, they are comparable in power, but gods can have unique abilities, for example only Hades can resurrect and grant eternal life to mortals because he is the god who represents life in this universe, a power that not even Athena and Poseidon have, even though they are gods of his level.

This is not a question of destructive power, it is about the character's abilities. For example, Naruto is more powerful than Shikamaru, but this does not mean that he has the ability to manipulate shadows. This also happens in Saint Seiya, where Seiya with God Cloth is stronger than Shaka, but this does not mean that Seiya automatically gains all of Shaka's abilities.

 

[AlexZiggy]

Yes, they are comparable in power, but gods can have unique abilities, for example only Hades can resurrect and grant eternal life to mortals because he is the god who represents life in this universe, a power that not even Athena and Poseidon have, even though they are gods of his level.

This is not a question of destructive power, it is about the character's abilities. For example, Naruto is more powerful than Shikamaru, but this does not mean that he has the ability to manipulate shadows. This also happens in Saint Seiya, where Seiya with God Cloth is stronger than Shaka, but this does not mean that Seiya automatically gains all of Shaka's abilities.

Yet all 7th sense users can perform miracles. Conceptual nature may be a default of those who possess the Divine Will

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Yet all 7th sense users can perform miracles. Conceptual nature may be a default of those who possess the Divine Will

It is a power of the Saints (to be precise the protagonists), and it is manipulation of probability and as described in the story this may be thanks to Nike, a goddess and sacred treasure that grants victory to Athena and her army, and this is the reason why the goddess has won her conflicts and defeated all the gods she has fought with, because she has victory in her hands.

Spoiler

An exclusive power of Athena and her army, because only this goddess has Nike, one of the sacred treasures of this goddess and probably the most powerful sacred treasure of the entire franchise, for its power to grant victory to the goddess against any enemy.

 

[StekFence]

Saints

Humans in general can do it in omega.

 

[AlexZiggy]

It is a power of the Saints (to be precise the protagonists), and it is manipulation of probability and as described in the story this may be thanks to Nike, a goddess and sacred treasure that grants victory to Athena and her army, and this is the reason why the goddess has won her conflicts and defeated all the gods she has fought with, because she has victory in her hands.

Spoiler

An exclusive power of Athena and her army, because only this goddess has Nike, one of the sacred treasures of this goddess and probably the most powerful sacred treasure of the entire franchise, for its power to grant victory to the goddess against any enemy.

Pretty sure it's also been described as something all humans possess.
I'll search for relevant scans

 

[AlexZiggy]

There's this one, blatantly stating it's a human power

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

There's this one, blatantly stating it's a human power

Yes, but as Athena says that is a power exclusive to humans (and usually only used by Saints) and its infinite potential, which can surpass even the gods.

This does not indicate that Nike's protection is not part of this, for as Saga says the goddess will lead the Saints to victory (not that she grants power to the Saint, she only helps him by leading him to victory, the Saint still needs to raise his cosmos to overcome his limits), no matter how difficult and powerful the enemy is.

This is nothing more than a probability manipulation that is already present in the pages of the Saints, although it should be something exclusive to the protagonists, because only they have been able to raise their cosmos to the point of performing a miracle and surpassing the gods.