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Sailor Moon power level debate.

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CantStoptheCrobat

CantStoptheCrobat

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Hello, I'm Ferrothorn from OBD and I would like to have a civilized discussion on the subject of the Sailor Moon universe.


So what brings me here... I posted here just a little bit, but never really touched this wiki because I thought OBD and Spacebattles were more accomodating for me, so I didn't really got the chance to debate on this forum. Nevertheless, I'm probably not gonna post here a lot, but one topic particularly brought my attention for some time, and I feel like I'm finally ready to make this post.


I'm gonna bluntly say this. I severely doubt the Sailor Moon universe is as strong as this wiki claims.

Here are a few reasons why.


1) Until 2015 or so, the Sailor Moon universe was thought by all (credible) sources to be at most small galaxy+, possibly galaxy level. This feat is based upon Sailor Cosmos's ability to regenerate an entire galaxy with the Lambda Power and the Cosmos Crystal (which is all the Sailor Crystals in the galaxy).

I'm not entirely sure when was the Miss Dream translation published, but since 2015 claims related to universal Sailor Moon started to pop out, and many people believed them which is what got SM upgraded to universe level and later to universe level+. Meanwhile, on the OBD, if we ignore speculations, hype and statements, Sailor Cosmos is still only solar system level+!

In fact, some attempts to upgrade Sailor Moon were madehere and here, as well as here. All of them got rejected on the OBD, but accepted here. This raised some questions for me.

2) Some of the feats presented here in favor of the Sailor Moon universe are extremely questionable. Here are a few:

a) "The Silver Crystal has immeasurable and unstoppable power, totally unlimited. The one who controls it also controls the entire universe and everything within it."

This is a ridiculous argument to justify the powerscaling in the Sailor Moon universe. It is an obvious no limit fallacy and a hyperbolic statement, one which is later contradicted as I am about to explain. It's virtually like saying Saitama can one punch anything.

1) First of all notice how Queen Beryl says "from what I understand". This obviously means she doesn't know the truth about the Silver Crystal, she got the info from somewhere.

2) Luna says it can ONLY destroy a planet, depending on how it's used. This contradicts Beryl's statement of being infinite.

3) If the Silver Crystal is infinite, why are there multiple of them? In the sense that it appears in other timelines as well.

There are other instances.

IthefightagainstQueeMetallia, SailorMoowasunableto do anything to Metallia with a part of it missing,and she recovered the remaining part with a kiss from Mamoru.

Later,QueeMetallia wasspreadingacrossthe Earth'ssurfaceas showedin these scans. HOWEVER, she seemed to do it slowly, as Artemis and Luna had enough time to go the Moon and pray WHILE Metallia was spreading across the Earth's surface. This cannot prove massively FTL+ Metallia.

Also, Metallia is not, under any shape or form, universe level at her peak. The scan used has two problems:

"The creature that the Sun bore was an enemy of all people, of all creation" - just a figure of speech, doesn't prove anything. (DBZ) Frieza was also an enemy of all people, doesn't mean he is universal.

"But it also wanted to possess the infinite power of the Silver Crystal" - see above, no limit fallacy.

Also note that the manga only states that "she WANTED to possess it". Not that she could. So it's only an intention, not an actual proof.

Since Metallia is not Fusion Zamasu, she didn't display this feat anywhere in the manga. Therefore, Metallia was never universal in the first place.

What does this prove:

- the Silver Crystal was emitting energy even with a part of it missing, since Metallia was absorbing it.

- It did not OHKO Metallia, neither when it was broken or at full power, which honestly is enough proof the Silver Crystal is not infinite.

- Luna seemed to disagree the Silver Crystal had infinite power.

Then we move on to Death Phantom. Another being which implies the same no limit fallacy. That the Silver Crystal has infinite power.

"I'll take over not only Earth, but anything that's ever been created, bwahaha!"

The page for Death Phantom also states, based on the same scan, that he is solar system level. I'll just say this: that scan shows zero proof for that.

Then there is Sailor Galaxia which also implies the same statement of the Silver Crystal having infinite power as shown here. She also states that, alongside the Sapphire Crystal and the other Sailor Crystals, she will become invincible, and according to this wiki, high universe level. On what basis???

TL;DR The Silver Crystal being stated to have "infinite power", upon which tons of Sailor Moon characters are scaled (and thus reach high universe level and stuff) is a no limit fallacy.

b) Sailor Cosmos is universe level+.

This is not true.

She is claimed to be universe+ in this scan, which seems to state she can restore and manipulate the space-time continuum. However, this is false and has no evidence for the following reasons.

1) This scan is clear about this: the Galaxy Cauldron contains all the star seeds in the GALAXY, not the universe. Sailor Cosmos clearly states this. No ifs, no buts.

Want more proof? Here.And here.

2) How the hell is the Lambda Power the force that maintains and restores the space-time continuum when there is not one single statement pointing this out? The scan does give info about the Cosmos Crystal itself, which is "the ultimate static power in all of cosmos" and that the Lambda is some constant which is related to a theory that the universe is a static and unchanging phenomenon.

Great. So basically, the Lambda Power makes Sailor Cosmos universe level+ because it's called the Lambda Power.

Can we make Cell Saga Vegeta universe level because one of his attacks is named Big Bang Attack?

Oh, I know. How about we make the Tsar bomba (strongest hydrogen bomb ever) planet level because it was the strongest force ever tested on Earth?

3) Eternal Sailor Moon, when she defeated Galaxia, is implied to have saved, once again, you guess it... the galaxy! Not the universe.

What this implies is that Sailor Cosmos is at most galaxy level. You know, like on OBD. And since Sailor Cosmos is the strongest character in Sailor Moon (as the ultimate form of Usagi herself), everyone else is weaker than her. This means the Sailor Moon universe caps at galaxy level.

c) Sailor Moon (and the others) can regenerate from nothingness, as in "mid-godly regen" and intangibility.

Again, not true.

This implies that as long as the universe exists and your Star Seed is destroyed, you can regenerate because of the Galaxy Cauldron. However, this claim has some major issues:

1) If the Galaxy Cauldron is destroyed, how is this still going to work? The Galaxy Caluldron is going to regenerate? This was only a statement from Sailor Galaxia that never happened on-panel.

2) Let's assume the Galaxy Caludron will regenerate. Well then, how about simply destroying the galaxy itself?

3) The Star Seeds are claimed to contain the essence of all living people, asteroids, planets and stars. But they are basically crystals with physical forms and stuff. What if someone decides to destroy them? You don't need to be universe level+ for that.

And about the intangibility... well, not one single scan shows she has it. So...

This basically means Sailor Moon's Regenerationn is depending on one entity, in this case the Galaxy Caludron. This cannot mean she has mid-godly regen.

There are also a few other questionable feats presented here, but I'll just leave it at these 3 because they seem to be the most important.


So, TL;DR: I haven't found anything that convinces me Sailor Moon is universe level+ and has mid-godly Regenerationn. The Silver Crystal, that seems to be the main reason for this (as it is implied to have infinite power...) is in fact a no limit fallacy statement, one that is as credible as saying Saitama can beat anyone with one punch.

3) Another argument I saw which supports universal Sailor Moon is the fact that the original Japanese translation literally says the Lambda Power maintains the cosmos. I haven't found ANY reliable translations related to this. Besides, why is there not one official translation which states what the original Japanese translation says?

4) Speaking of Japanese, I saw some arguments related to how "Japanese forums agree Usagi is universe level+". Sorry but no. We don't use Japanese tier lists when we play Smash Bros., so we can't use this argument. It's basically appeal to authority.

5) Apparently Queen Nehellenia is universe level because her life-force supports the existence of the Dark World, which is a parallel universe...?

The only thing that supports this is an old European legend, according to the same scan. Far more evidence is required. Plus, it once again relies on the Silver Crystal NLF.

6) Lastly, where are the proofs for Sailor Mercury, Mars and stuff being on par with Sailor Moon?


I made this thread because I think this wiki needs to be improved, since it's a reliable source as well. This can be done by either showing real explanation for the power level of the Sailor Moon universe, or nerfing it.

I am open to any discussions, and any civilized response will be appreciated. Thank you.
 
Not bothering to read the whole thread.

But why does the OBD accepting feats matter? We're an entirely different site. Just because the OBD doesn't have things like Solar System level Cell doesn't mean we can't.
 
I think DarkLK would like to see this. I personally am not sure at all, but we have no staff that are familiar with the verse, and just a few regular members. The person who edited out SM stats left halfway due to getting married. Regardless, I'll make sure this isn't closed anytime soon.
 
Alright gonna leave in like 10 minutes, thought I'd make a response to the first part based on what I have gotten to.

"Until 2015 or so, the Sailor Moon universe was thought by all (credible) sources to be at most small galaxy+, possibly galaxy level. This feat is based upon Sailor Cosmos's ability to regenerate an entire galaxy with the Lambda Power and the Cosmos Crystal (which is all the Sailor Crystals in the galaxy).



I'm not entirely sure when was the Miss Dream translation published, but since 2015 claims related to universal Sailor Moon started to pop out, and many people believed them which is what got SM upgraded to universe level and later to universe level+. Meanwhile, on the OBD, if we ignore speculations, hype and statements, Sailor Cosmos is still only solar system level+!



In fact, some attempts to upgrade Sailor Moon were madehere and here, as well as here. All of them got rejected on the OBD, but accepted here. This raised some questions for me."

Stuff gets upgraded all the time do to re-evaluation of their feats. Just recently we got a big upgrade to the original Digimon adventure by re-assessing their feats.



"Some of the feats presented here in favor of the Sailor Moon universe are extremely questionable. Here are a few:



a) "The Silver Crystal has immeasurable and unstoppable power, totally unlimited. The one who controls it also controls the entire universe and everything within it."



This is a ridiculous argument to justify the powerscaling in the Sailor Moon universe. It is an obvious no limit fallacy and a hyperbolic statement, one which is later contradicted as I am about to explain. It's virtually like saying Saitama can one punch anything."

I don't usually this statement as any kind of justification but how? It pretty directly states that it "also controls the entire universe and everything within it". That doesn't very similar to Saitama one-punch statements, it has a clear range and limit given.



"First of all notice how Queen Beryl says "from what I understand". This obviously means she doesn't know the truth about the Silver Crystal, she got the info from somewhere."

Well…kinda. Saying "obviously, she doesn't know the truth" is kind of stretching don't you think. Queen Beryl really wants to find the Silver Crystal and has been asked by one of her sub-ordinates what it is and she gives the information to the best of her ability. If you were introduced to a movie and some character asks another character who is clearly searching for Ex McGuffin, it would seem pretty reasonable to assume they would know what they are talking about since they are actively searching for it. I mean if you want to take statements with a grain of salt that's fine, but I don't know why this statement of all statements would be unreasonable.



"2) Luna says it can ONLY destroy a planet, depending on how it's used. This contradicts Beryl's statement of being infinite."

Woah, woah, woah. That is not what she says. In proper translation, she says it can "easily blow apart a star". It doesn't say that's it's limit, it says it can "easily" do that.

Also, you are missing the context. Luna was explaining to the Sailors what the threat of people getting the Silver Crystal is. Not anyone just a person. Meaning if the proper heir to the Silver Crystal gets it, it would likely be much more potent. Consider how Usagi made the Crystal return to her from Nehelenia's grasp at the end of the fourth arc.



"3) If the Silver Crystal is infinite, why are there multiple of them? In the sense that it appears in other timelines as well."

What?

So if a universe is infinite, that means there cannot be multiple of them? An infinite universe precludes a multiverse of any kind? This seems unfounded. Also what other Silver Crystal is there? The only parallel SM I know of is Parallel Sailor Moon and I don't think she's ever confirmed to have the Silver Crystal there nor is that version even confirmed canon.



"In the fight against Queen Metallia, Sailor Moon was unable to do anything to Metallia with a part of it missing, and she recovered the remaining part with a kiss from Mamoru.



Later, Queen Metallia was spreading across the Earth's surfaceas showed in these scans. HOWEVER, she seemed to do it slowly, as Artemis and Luna had enough time to go the Moon and pray WHILE Metallia was spreading across the Earth's surface. This cannot prove massively FTL+ Metallia."

Why not? Because they're cats? I mean a chapter or two earlier Artemis held of Brainwashed Endymion which his light show thing and they are inter-stellar travelers anyway (Because they are from the planet Mau)



"Also, Metallia is not, under any shape or form, universe level at her peak. The scan used has two problems



"The creature that the Sun bore was an enemy of all people, of all creation" - just a figure of speech, doesn't prove anything. (DBZ) Frieza was also an enemy of all people, doesn't mean he is universal."

I didn't write this so I can't speak about it, but if Neo-Queen Serenity is at that level, which makes sense then it would also make sense that if Metalia could kill her, Metalia would be at that level.



"Since Metallia is not Fusion Zamasu, she didn't display this feat anywhere in the manga. Therefore, Metallia was never universal in the first place."

What? I don't follow, sorry.



"What does this prove:



- the Silver Crystal was emitting energy even with a part of it missing, since Metallia was absorbing it.



- It did not OHKO Metallia, neither when it was broken or at full power, which honestly is enough proof the Silver Crystal is not infinite.



- Luna seemed to disagree the Silver Crystal had infinite power."

None of these are very concrete proof that the Silver Crystal is not infinite, like I don't rely on that statement just doesn't make sense. Your position on Luna's statement is outright incorrect and the others don't at all suggest it's limited.



"Then we move on to Death Phantom. Another being which implies the same no limit fallacy. That the Silver Crystal has infinite power.



""I'll take over not only Earth, but anything that's ever been created, bwahaha!"



The page for Death Phantom also states, based on the same scan, that he is solar system level. I'll just say this: that scan shows zero proof for that."

This is a mistranslation. The original, as far as I understand, said that he was going to envelop the Silver Crystal, the Earth, and the Solar System. I also do know that his explosion appeared very large in the sky despite the fact that he was at the edge of the Star System and that an OBD calc actually put it at ABOVE Star System Level.



"Then there is Sailor Galaxia which also implies the same statement of the Silver Crystal having infinite power as shown here. She also states that, alongside the Sapphire Crystal and the other Sailor Crystals, she will become invincible, and according to this wiki, high universe level. On what basis???"

Uh…The Sapphire Crystal is said to be the greatest destructive power. Ergo it scales to the Silver Crystal. Seems pretty straightforward to me.



"TL;DR The Silver Crystal being stated to have "infinite power", upon which tons of Sailor Moon characters are scaled (and thus reach high universe level and stuff) is a no limit fallacy."

It's not just the fact that it's said to have infinite power. It's that

A: It disrupted all of spacetime

B: Is the source of all power

C: Gives dominion over the entire universe and everything in it

D: Someone with the Silver Crystal (Chibiusa) turning evil caused chaos in spacetime like nothing ever seen before

E: Chaos stating it would create a new universe with the Silver Crystal




And probably more things I'm not thinking of at the moment. It really is pretty consistent overall.


Overall this argument so far seems to be going by that logic that because it being stated to have infinite power was part of 1 reason why it's consider that, that it's the only reason when there is a half dozen universal statements and direct feats I can think of off the top of my head.
 
@Neph think even his arguments are valid for the sailor moon, I would add things if needed but I think that is enough
 
@Cal We don't talk about that....

But any way we have our own stats. I mean we can't go by purely the OBD otherwise most Digimon would still be Country level or Lucemon would still only be Large Planet level. Not saying the OBD is unreliable. It's just that we kinda have our own way of doing things. Although we do like other opinions.
 
Most these complaints are all based on statements taken out of context.

Sailor Moon's Universal levels aren't based on statements of the Silver Crystal. Those are just supporting details.

And it doesn't come from Metallia either.

Eternal Sailor Moon destroyed Queen Nehellenia's Universe. That's a feat.

Chaos was warping spacetime and creating storms in the Underworld. That's a feat.

Sailor Moon undid the this warping restored spacetime. That's a feat.

Sailor Cosmos specifically says the Lambda power can be used to restore the universe and claimed that she was going to use that same power to begin again and again.

Chaos wanted to use the Silver Crystal to create a new universe.
 
That's still hax. Good hax, but hax nonetheless. Unless it was specified to be a whole timeline, then it would be time manipulation hax, a chain reaction at worst.
 
Alright, then. Good thing we have more examples than just that to justify the level.

@Nephillim98

You bring up a good point. OP quotes the OBD as point on downgrading Sailor moon but then says there's no evidence of Deah Phantom being SOlar System when the OBD classifies defeating him as a small galaxy level.

And honestly the OBD is inconsitent and biased. OP likes to bring up dragon ball z for some reason. in the Obd Goku is universal+ for destroying an attack that was stated to be able tod estroy the unvierse and because vegeta destroyed the Rosat. How many examples in Sailor Moon where characters claimed they were going to destroy the universe with the Silver crystal (every chaos spawn) and how many times has Sailor Moon affected spacetime (too many to count)?
 
To be fair, while I don't agree with Low 2-C Goku (and I'm still coping with 3-A Goku), universal was hammered into us all throughout episodes 12-15, calced at stupidly close to universal, and consistently mentioned since then that Beerus and co. are universe busters. For the +, Vegeta did destroy time (just a small portion of it though), so the chances that the Beerus and Goku having logically done so is a valid thought. We just don't consider it that.
 
"And honestly the OBD is inconsitent and biased"

Can we stop? A lot of people here like to bring up the attitude of OBD members towards other forums as evidence that they are all shit, so you're not exactly doing much better by shit-talking them, too. Specially since the OBD pretty much invented online Vs.Debating and calcs.

Secondly, I am going to read Sailor Moon myself and I will determine what is the power level of the series, weather or not it is 3-C+ like the OBD claims or Low 2-C+ like the supporters here claim.

My suspiction? It's neither, the truth lies between both extremes.
 
Like Matt said, we should not sling mud towards OBD or any other community for that matter. We're our own site, but that doesn't mean we're better or that they're worse. We simply both have two different systems and viewpoints on the matter.
 
Let me guess...I need make an explanation blog for Sailor Moon too? Otherwise I agree with Ever. Do '''not''' compare us to OBD. They do their thing and we do ours. Simple as that.
 
Matt is right, the OBD has are opinion while we have ours, we should not seek to make war. On the other hand I think that sailor moon is low 2-C but no more, wait for the reading of the manga by Matt before debating because it could also be the source of a possible upgrade / downgrade
 
Well I can understand that. I apologize. But it was the OP who brought the obd and their arguments here to discredit the ratings here.

If someone wants to challenge a valuation of a series strnegth they should bring their own arguments and scans and use arguments based on vsbattles tiering system without relying on the arguments from another vs site.

I think that would be fair for all us and easier to address than arguments from third parties who can't interject here.
 
Going through this bit by bit:

1. What the OBD says doesn't really matter.

2. Yeah. The fact they say "from what I understand" brings the statement into question, but the fact the idea it has infinite power is repeated numerous times kinda dispels that. The scan about destroying a planet doesn't say that's it's limit, "infinite power" isn't an NLF, and there being multiple versions of the crystal doesn't really mean anything?

3. Not sure what Sailor Moon repairing part of the crystal has to do with anything, and I'm pretty sure Metallia is scaled from the Senshi's MFTL+ feats anyway instead of it covering the Earth.

4. Yeah, an "enemy of all people" isn't a good justification for universe level. I agree on that.

5. I'll agree with you that Lambda Power being universal because it is related to a thing IRL that is a theory about universes is iffy. I'd like more evidence than just that.
 
So should I note continue adressing, I just got back from the movie but it seems like it's just gonna stay the same until Matthew reads the manga. If wanted I can explain any of the points really, it's really not a big deal.
 
First of all, OBD-bashing is strictly forbidden according to our rules. We owe a lot to them, including calculations and getting the power-scaling community started in the first place.

Secondly, I think that the original poster seems to make some good points. I also personally doubt the veracity of the Sailor Moon profiles. Our problem with them is that the staff are not interested in or knowledgeable about the franchise, so regrettably the few fans of the property have been able to argue for very high ratings without proper criticism.

Matthew is planning to read the manga, and possibly perform a revision however.

Regardless, I have also been particularly suspicious of the Mid-Godly Regenerationn ratings, and would appreciate more feedback regarding the arguments of the original poster in this area.
 
I can provide arugment for the mid-godly Regenerationn ratings vs what the OP claims

"c) Sailor Moon (and the others) can regenerate from nothingness, as in "mid-godly regen" and intangibility.

Again, not true.

This implies that as long as the universe exists and your Star Seed is destroyed, you can regenerate because of the Galaxy Cauldron. "

This is already false. Regenerationn comes from having the Lambda force not because the galaxy cauldron exists.

However, this claim has some major issues:

1) If the Galaxy Cauldron is destroyed, how is this still going to work? The Galaxy Caluldron is going to regenerate? This was only a statement from Sailor Galaxia that never happened on-panel.

Galaxia states that if the Galaxy caudlron is destroyed it will just re appear again. The galaxy cauldron connects all points in time and space, so even if you destroy the galaxy cauldron it still exists in the past and in the future so it doesn't matter. It always exists in one way or form.

Saying "this is only a statement" to discredit this fact is just superfluous.

2) Let's assume the Galaxy Caludron will regenerate. Well then, how about simply destroying the galaxy itself?

This doesn't make sense. The Galaxy comes from the galaxy cauldron. Everything in the unvierse comes from it. Destroy the galaxy won't do anything to the galaxy cauldron. And againd destroying the galaxy cauldron does nothing as it will just regenerate.

3) The Star Seeds are claimed to contain the essence of all living people, asteroids, planets and stars. But they are basically crystals with physical forms and stuff. What if someone decides to destroy them? You don't need to be universe level+ for that.

There's no claims on this wiki that destroying starseeds makes a person unviersal+ (if that was true, we'd have everyone and their mama be at least 2-B) Starseeds are the physical concept of thing's existence. Without it, they can't exist. It can't get any simple than that.

And about the intangibility... well, not one single scan shows she has it. So...

Sailor Moon inside the Galaxy cauldron is intangible. It's impossible to exist as a physical thing in the Galaxy Cauldron, it erases everything that enters it and sends Sailor Crystals to be reincarnated.

Sailor Moon and the otehrs with the Lambda power achieves their perfecct form.

This basically means Sailor Moon's Regenerationn is depending on one entity, in this case the Galaxy Caludron. This cannot mean she has mid-godly regen.

Regenerationn comes from the Lambda power. Not the Galaxy Cauldron. Lambda power allowed Sailor Moon to regenerate after being erased by the Galaxy cauldron and to regenerate all the sailor senshi that were erased to.

Why would Sailor Moon's mid-godly regen be based on the thing that erased her from existence in the first place?

The Lambda Power comes from all the Sailor Crystal combined as one to form the Cosmos Crystal.

In fact, the best example of Mid-godly regen comes from Chibi-Usa. Upon Tuxedo Kamen falling in to the Galaxy Cauldron being erased, Chibi-Usa and her entire future timeline was erased instantly. Chibi-usa's crystal didn't get recycled for reincarnation. It was wiped out completely. Yet through the Lambda power that Sailor Moon as Sailor Cosmos possesses, she was regenerated and sent back to the future.


So in conclusion, I think the OP is confusing the Galaxy Cauldron with the Lambda power.
 
Antvasima said:
First of all, OBD-bashing is strictly forbidden according to our rules. We owe a lot to them, including calculations and getting the power-scaling community started in the first place.
Secondly, I think that the original poster seems to make some good points. I also personally doubt the veracity of the Sailor Moon profiles. Our problem with them is that the staff are not interested in or knowledgeable about the franchise, so regrettably the few fans of the property have been able to argue for very high ratings without proper criticism.

Matthew is planning to read the manga, and possibly perform a revision however.

Regardless, I have also been particularly suspicious of the Mid-Godly Regenerationn ratings, and would appreciate more feedback regarding the arguments of the original poster in this area.
Click to expand...
The arguments of the original poster are rather well supported. These arguments against are old and don't really hold up
 
The arguments seem parroted and may not imply that the OP himself have read the material at all (alluding to the last question). I think there could be minor adjustments, but probably not the sort of scale this is proposing.
 
??? I certainly have, and I haven't gotten the impression most of the people here haven't. In fact most of the people who seem content with where it is will mention various other parts of the manga off-hand
 
The real cal howard said:
I think DarkLK would like to see this.
Click to expand...

I see this. I agree with most of the statements. I'm ready to help Matthew with analyzing and changing the statistics if necessary.
 
@DarkLK & Matthew Thank you for the help.
 
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