Sailor Mercury: Dimensional Manipulation

[Iamunanimousinthat]

It seems that Sailor Mercury's higher dimensional manipulation was remvoed from her profile. It should be placed back.

Sailor Mercury has an attack called Hyper Dimensional Space Emerge in the original Japanese. It is localized as Super Dimensional Sphere Emerge or Hyperspatial Sphere Generate. The ability essentially does what it is called in Japanese, it creates hyper dimensional space.



https://jisho.org/search/超次元空間現出

We know that the space that Sailor Mercury created or brought the cast to is higher dimensional space in terms of number of axes because she specifically stated to have used time-axis calculations to do the move.



It is as straight forward as it gets.

NOTE: Because I know someone will bring this argument up, as it always gets brought up...

Argument: "Just because it's called Hyper Dimensional Space Emerge" doesn't mean she's emerging a hyper dimensional space."

1. This is a net zero argument. While "just because something is called x doesn't mean it entails x" can be true the reverse, "something is called x because it entails x" can also be true. This argument also ignores the fact that her ability needs mathematical calculations of axes.

2. This argument is most valid when the depiction or context of an attack doesn't match the name. This is not the case, as Sailor Mercury is seen very well creating a space of some kind. The name simply tells the reader quickly what type of space it is as well as with the additional information that it requires mathematical calculations of axes.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/sailormoon/images/c/ca/Hyperspatial_Sphere_Generate_crystal.gif

3. Nothing else contradicts the attack name.

 

[Vietthai96]

Well, the thing is, Higher-Dimensional Manipulation standard was revised and changed into Dimensional Manipulation, which in order to qualify, the character need to demonstrate the ability to increases or decreases the number of dimensional axes of a structure, simply creating or manipulating a structure that have more than basic three dimensions will not qualify anymore, that why many HDM was removed from many profiles

 

[PrinceofPein]

What @Vietthai96 said

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Well, the thing is, Higher-Dimensional Manipulation standard was revised and changed into Dimensional Manipulation, which in order to qualify, the character need to demonstrate the ability to increases or decreases the number of dimensional axes of a structure, simply creating or manipulating a structure that have more than basic three dimensions will not qualify anymore, that why many HDM was removed from many profiles

That’s not what the page says. It says this:

Dimensional Manipulation is the ability to manipulate the dimensions that aren't limited to just three-dimensional space. Its possible applications include being able to warp the dimensionality of a target to a higher or lower dimension, being capable of phasing someone in and out of existence by changing their positions in other dimensions, affecting a target by making it exist in more than one plane, among many other abilities.

That’s an application of it but not the only one.

 

[Akagami_Shanks1]

nice

 

[AKUTO123]

Agree

 

[Vietthai96]

That’s not what the page says. It says this:

Dimensional Manipulation is the ability to manipulate the dimensions that aren't limited to just three-dimensional space. Its possible applications include being able to warp the dimensionality of a target to a higher or lower dimension, being capable of phasing someone in and out of existence by changing their positions in other dimensions, affecting a target by making it exist in more than one plane, among many other abilities.

That’s an application of it but not the only one.

Well, again, idk why you saw that but, it have no such an application anymore, you can argue this with @Theglassman12 , he is the one who revised the power iirc

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Well, again, idk why you saw that but, it have no such an application anymore, you can argue this with @Theglassman12 , he is the one who revised the power iirc

Well its not what the current page says, and making dimensional manipulation only about making nD targets nD+ is silly, so im doubting thats how things are.

 

[Vietthai96]

Well its not what the current page says, and making dimensional manipulation only about making nD targets nD+ is silly, so im doubting thats how things are.

if you feel it is silly, then revise the standard again

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

if you feel it is silly, then revise the standard again

Well considering the page doesn’t say that, I wouldn’t be the one who needs to revise anything.

 

[Vietthai96]

Well considering the page doesn’t say that, I wouldn’t be the one who needs to revise anything.

the page doesn't say what???

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

the page doesn't say what???

That DM is limited to changing the dimensionality of a target.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Bump.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

And it should be known that this is what is on the Dimension Manipulation page:

Dimensional Manipulation is the ability to manipulate the dimensions that aren't limited to just three-dimensional space. Its possible applications include being able to warp the dimensionality of a target to a higher or lower dimension, being capable of phasing someone in and out of existence by changing their positions in other dimensions, affecting a target by making it exist in more than one plane, among many other abilities.

The bold is very much a one to one of what Mercury did.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Bump!

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Bump.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Can I get a bump?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

…

 

[Lonkitt]

Well, the thing is, Higher-Dimensional Manipulation standard was revised and changed into Dimensional Manipulation, which in order to qualify, the character need to demonstrate the ability to increases or decreases the number of dimensional axes of a structure, simply creating or manipulating a structure that have more than basic three dimensions will not qualify anymore, that why many HDM was removed from many profiles

This along with the fact that there’s not much else context given in these scans has me on the disagreeing end of things

I wouldn’t call this “as straight forward as it gets” unfortunately

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah none of the scans on the OP remotely mentions anything Dimensional Manipulation related. Gonna disagree unless there’s more context to the ability.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Yeah none of the scans on the OP remotely mentions anything Dimensional Manipulation related. Gonna disagree unless there’s more context to the ability.

Creating a higher dimension space isn’t dimensional manipulation?

 

[Lonkitt]

Creating a higher dimension space isn’t dimensional manipulation?

But Mercury didn’t create a higher dimensional space. You’ve provided no evidence that she did

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

But Mercury didn’t create a higher dimensional space. You’ve provided no evidence that she did

The attack is literally call Hyper Dimensional Space Emerge and it created a higher dimensional space. And she uses time-axis calculations to do it.

 

[Lonkitt]

The attack is literally call Hyper Dimensional Space Emerge and it created a higher dimensional space. And she uses time-axis calculations to do it.

A) Names don’t immediately equate to what an attack does
B) Again, there is not a single piece of evidence that she creates a higher dimensional space

You’ll have to provide more evidence

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

A) Names don’t immediately equate to what an attack does
B) Again, there is not a single piece of evidence that she creates a higher dimensional space

You’ll have to provide more evidence

1. I addressed this argument's line of logic which I included in the OP. It is essentially net zero argument. Names don't immediately equate to what an attack does, but names can also immediately equate to what an attack does. There is no evidence to showcase that the name isn't accurate. Sailor Mercury is created a space of some kind and needed to use mathematical calculations involving axes to do so. Why can't the name be used as evidence? The author obviously named it as such to relay that information to the reader quickly.

This is like saying a character's attack call flame blast, isn't necessarily a fire attack because it's called flame blast. (while also ignoring the character using gasoline and electric taser to do it, and we see it create fire)

 

[Lonkitt]

1. I addressed this argument's line of logic which I included in the OP. It is essentially net zero argument. Names don't immediately equate to what an attack does, but names can also immediately equate to what an attack does. There is no evidence to showcase that the name isn't accurate. Sailor Mercury is created a space of some kind and needed to use mathematical calculations involving axes to do so. Why can't the name be used as evidence? The author obviously named it as such to relay that information to the reader quickly.

This is like saying a character's attack call flame blast, isn't necessarily a fire attack because it's called flame blast. (while also ignoring the character using gasoline and electric taser to do it, and we see it create fire)

You addressed it, yes. But I could call an attack “Dimensional Field” for example, and all I do is make a regular forcefield. The name alone ain’t gonna cut it

 

[Theglassman12]

Literally nothing in the scans you provided remotely mentioned creating a higher dimensional space, you’re literally just basing this off of the name of an attack which is a name fallacy, which we don’t do that for obvious reasons. Is there anything that expands on the ability beyond the name or no? Because this doesn’t cut it.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

You addressed it, yes. But I could call an attack “Dimensional Field” for example, and all I do is make a regular forcefield. The name alone ain’t gonna cut it

Okay. That's fair. I shall provide evidence that Mercury did absolutely create a space, and this isn't just a forcefield.

Here in the animation, we see the space expand and swallow the cast and then disappear with them inside it. If it was a forcefield, they would still remain in the area they were before, but with a force field around them: (note: you can clearly also see them using forcefields in this scene too)

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/sailormoon/images/c/ca/Hyperspatial_Sphere_Generate_crystal.gif

Here is Queen Beryl reacting to the ability and confirming that they are in a new location:



Here is a scans showing the cast being able to use forcefields without the need of using the axis calculations or any incantations.



We know it's not just teleportation to the new area because Mercury and Jupiter are shown teleporting Motoki (the unconscious man) outside, without the need of the calculations as well. And then they teleport back into the center right before Mercury asks luna for the calculations.




These scans prove that's it's not just a forcefield, a space was created by mercury, they are somewhere new, and it wasn't simple teleportation.

you’re literally just basing this off of the name of an attack which is a name fallacy

The name fallacy goes both ways. You would have to show the name doesn't match up with the visuals. Mercury is shown created as space, and is shown calculated axes. It's not just based on the name alone. At least mention the calculations in your rebuttal.

 

[Theglassman12]

That’s not an argument. The burden of proof is on you that they literally can showcase something that follows their namesake. The time axis calculations means nothing with the new dimensional manipulation page as manipulating space and time is not qualified anymore. By this logic of the name fallacy, Vegeta in the Android Saga would be 3-A to Low 2-C because he has an attack called Big Bang Attack.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

That’s not an argument. The burden of proof is on you that they literally can showcase something that follows their namesake. The time axis calculations means nothing with the new dimensional manipulation page as manipulating space and time is not qualified anymore. By this logic of the name fallacy, Vegeta in the Android Saga would be 3-A to Low 2-C because he has an attack called Big Bang Attack.

Wrong. By my logic, we know that Vegeta's big bang attack isn't an actual big bang because the visuals doesn't show him rapidly expanding spacetime from a singularity, releasing a ton of energy and matter to create a new universe.

We actually see Sailor Mercury create a new space. Why do you keep focusing on the name just alone and ignoring the visuals of her creating a space.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

And Dimensional Manipulation has to deal with the manipulation of spatial and temporal axes. Saying it means nothing makes no sense.

 

[Theglassman12]

Creating a new space doesn't mean dimensional Manipulation, that's just creation at best. also Dimensional Manipulation literally has nothing to do with warping spatial and temporal axes anymore, you haven't paid attention to what changed if you seriously think that's still valid for DM.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Creating a new space doesn't mean dimensional Manipulation, that's just creation at best. also Dimensional Manipulation literally has nothing to do with warping spatial and temporal axes anymore, you haven't paid attention to what changed if you seriously think that's still valid for DM.

Except the space was referred to as being hyper dimension. Unless you are going to fallaciously argue that the name of the space and the actually space aren't connected at all?

And I am going by what the dimensional manipulation page says:

Dimensional Manipulation is the ability to manipulate the dimensions that aren't limited to just three-dimensional space. Its possible applications include being able to warp the dimensionality of a target to a higher or lower dimension, being capable of phasing someone in and out of existence by changing their positions in other dimensions, affecting a target by making it exist in more than one plane, among many other abilities.

Go make a CRT to change the page to whatever you think it's supposed to be.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Mercury is literally moving the cast to a higher dimension to stop them from destroying the control center in the normal space. That's cut and dry one of the examples listed on the page.

It also says:

Note that only dimensions in a mathematical sense are included, not manipulations of hierarchical spaces merely equivalent to such, and neither does affecting entire timelines, as without further context it could be classified as an AP feat or a range feat for a particular ability.

Sailor Mercury literally had to do math to create this space.

 

[Lonkitt]

The new evidence you brought forward hasn’t changed anything. You’re just using the name as an argument, and bringing in the point that “well, Mercury had to use math to create it” doesn’t change anything

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The new evidence you brought forward hasn’t changed anything. You’re just using the name as an argument, and bringing in the point that “well, Mercury had to use math to create it” doesn’t change anything

What more evidence is needed? Ad Nauseum repetition? A character to explain what just happened because the author thinks the reader is an idiot?

If the author just wanted a cool sounding name, why would she include the set up with Mercury needing mathematical calculations about axes?

I've ruled out all other explanations.

If your only argument is that we don't accept names as evidence then that's not an argument that's just adhering to tradition.

 

[Lonkitt]

If your only argument is that we don't accept names as evidence then that's not an argument that's just adhering to tradition.

It’s not just the name. It’s the fact there is literally not a higher dimensional space being created

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

It’s not just the name. It’s the fact there is literally not a higher dimensional space being created

Yes there is.

Sailor Mercury is shown creating a space. Yes.
The space is called Hyper Dimensional space.
The space needed mathematical calculations involving axes to be done. Yes.

Why is that not enough evidence? How else is the author supposed to convey that the space has higher dimensional?

 

[Lonkitt]

Yes there is.

Sailor Mercury is shown creating a space. Yes.
The space is called Hyper Dimensional space.
The space needed mathematical calculations involving axes to be done. Yes.

Why is that not enough evidence? How else is the author supposed to convey that the space has higher dimensional?

A) I don’t see any dimensional spaces being creates
B) Math isn’t supporting anything here. Yes she supposedly needs math to create it. That’s not a higher dimensional specific thing

We can stop this back and forth because I’ve given my thoughts multiple times. I disagree with the revisions

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

A) I don’t see any dimensional spaces being creates

??????

Higher Dimensional spaces don't exist in real life. Nor do we know what one would like. There is literally no way to know if a space is higher dimensional unless the narrative calls it one. This is faulty logic.