- 32,359
- 20,298
No, he literally edited my post into his response rather than post it. I'm not starting drama, just telling him to simply post.Thebluedash said:
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Sagat's durability concerns
- Thread starter DarkDragonMedeus
- Start date
-
- Tags
- sagat street fighter
- Status
- 10,394
- 3,348
@Blue
False, Grudge literally edited his own argument into Matt's post.
@Xcano
You're assuming variables never stated anywhere. And even then, those reasons aren't reason for him to not use the technique in a fight.
False, Grudge literally edited his own argument into Matt's post.
@Xcano
You're assuming variables never stated anywhere. And even then, those reasons aren't reason for him to not use the technique in a fight.
- 1,446
- 301
Oh I see... Grudge, I'm not sure why you're doing that. Just make your own comment?
- 1,670
- 145
I was trying to pull a quote from your comment than reply to said post. However some complications occurred irl do it led to a mishap my mistake.Matthew Schroeder said:
- 32,359
- 20,298
"My analogy couldve been about baseball and oranges for all it matters. As long as the point is "Just because these 2 things share some characteristics doesnt mean they share all characteristics" the analogy still works."
No, Josh. If your analogy is about something other than speed it is worthless.
"In the case of the Spirit Bomb just because they are both "Ki blasts" doesnt mean they are the same AP or speed."
And in the later they are actually demonstrably are. The Spirit Bomb is never portrayed as faster or slower than other Ki Blasts Goku fires.
"Maybe this move is faster but weaker"
How would you know?
"maybe this movie puts a strain on him"
How would you know?
"maybe this move is stronger and faster but also very inefficient in terms of the energy it uses."
How would you know?
All of this is headcanons you are inventing right now to justify not using a valid feat, when the simplest explanation is that it is simply not his best move and he uses others in combat.
Occam's Razor, go with the simplest explanation, not the most convoluted explanation which wields the lowest result.
"We just dont know. He uses the move once, nobody reacts to it, no other attack in the series comes even close speed wise."
Clearly false considering Bison's feat has been calced from Mach 300 to Mach 1000 as well.
"So unless you have actual evidence that it scales aside from "Well I just feel like it makes sense" then I'd have to say it's a moot point."
I already posted the evidence, you could actually address that rather than invent a strawman version of what I said.
No, Josh. If your analogy is about something other than speed it is worthless.
"In the case of the Spirit Bomb just because they are both "Ki blasts" doesnt mean they are the same AP or speed."
And in the later they are actually demonstrably are. The Spirit Bomb is never portrayed as faster or slower than other Ki Blasts Goku fires.
"Maybe this move is faster but weaker"
How would you know?
"maybe this movie puts a strain on him"
How would you know?
"maybe this move is stronger and faster but also very inefficient in terms of the energy it uses."
How would you know?
All of this is headcanons you are inventing right now to justify not using a valid feat, when the simplest explanation is that it is simply not his best move and he uses others in combat.
Occam's Razor, go with the simplest explanation, not the most convoluted explanation which wields the lowest result.
"We just dont know. He uses the move once, nobody reacts to it, no other attack in the series comes even close speed wise."
Clearly false considering Bison's feat has been calced from Mach 300 to Mach 1000 as well.
"So unless you have actual evidence that it scales aside from "Well I just feel like it makes sense" then I'd have to say it's a moot point."
I already posted the evidence, you could actually address that rather than invent a strawman version of what I said.
- 2,334
- 312
@Ever The normal Hadoukens only move about as fast as random civilians in the background. I would say suddenly shooting up to MHS speed is enough cause to say it's variable as is.
Whether or not he uses it in combat isnt a question either. We know he doesnt because he calls out the attack name there and none of his attacks in any of the games have that name.
Whether or not he uses it in combat isnt a question either. We know he doesnt because he calls out the attack name there and none of his attacks in any of the games have that name.
- 32,359
- 20,298
@Xcano
Using the civilians in the background as an argument is about as legitimate as using the scene taking place in the rain. The characters move "slowly" in gameplay for the practical reasons of making you able to control them and that it would look dumb if the background was frozen in place. Alive backgrounds are much more engaging and interesting.
Also, a character's Named Attacks in Street Fighters are all comparable. Ryu's Shinku Hadouken and Shinku Shoryuken are both comparable in how strong and fast they are. If anything, it is far more likely that Akuma's other Special Moves scale to the attack he did one time for the sake of training.
Using the civilians in the background as an argument is about as legitimate as using the scene taking place in the rain. The characters move "slowly" in gameplay for the practical reasons of making you able to control them and that it would look dumb if the background was frozen in place. Alive backgrounds are much more engaging and interesting.
Also, a character's Named Attacks in Street Fighters are all comparable. Ryu's Shinku Hadouken and Shinku Shoryuken are both comparable in how strong and fast they are. If anything, it is far more likely that Akuma's other Special Moves scale to the attack he did one time for the sake of training.
- 10,394
- 3,348
"The normal Hadoukens only move about as fast as random civilians in the background."
That's a very blatant case of just convenience of scenery. Backgrounds have to move or else the creators look lazy.
It's like saying Goku isn't MFTL+ because he fights during rainfalls.
"I would say suddenly shooting up to MHS speed is enough cause to say it's variable as is."
No, it just means it's not always portrayed to be as fast as that. Doesn't mean its speed is actually variable.
"Whether or not he uses it in combat isnt a question either. We know he doesnt because he calls out the attack name there and none of his attacks in any of the games have that name."
What's that have to do with anything? No one's saying he's used this specific technique in combat before.
That's a very blatant case of just convenience of scenery. Backgrounds have to move or else the creators look lazy.
It's like saying Goku isn't MFTL+ because he fights during rainfalls.
"I would say suddenly shooting up to MHS speed is enough cause to say it's variable as is."
No, it just means it's not always portrayed to be as fast as that. Doesn't mean its speed is actually variable.
"Whether or not he uses it in combat isnt a question either. We know he doesnt because he calls out the attack name there and none of his attacks in any of the games have that name."
What's that have to do with anything? No one's saying he's used this specific technique in combat before.
- 2,334
- 312
I thought we didn't care about author intent? It shouldn't matter if it would "look weird" if the civilians were still. They aren't, that's the evidence we have presented. Not to mention it's stupidly easy to make backgrounds without civilians. Mortal Kombat did that for many of its games.
- 32,359
- 20,298
That's not authorial intent. That's just having the common sense and reasoning to understand that the background moves to make it dynamic, colorful and alive. Also you are using gameplay, in which everyone has the same speed and level of strength and is not canon aside from key fights like Rival Matches and Final Bosses.
- 10,394
- 3,348
^Matthew Schroeder said:
It's the same reason fiction often has fights in the rain, because it's inherently dramatic, even when the characters are fast enough to where the rain shouldn't fall.
- 64
- 13
Are we seriously about to argue that gameplay speeds relative to background objects take precedent as a low end/limit over cutscene feats?LordXcano said:
'Cus that's more than a little nonsensical.
- 6,206
- 686
Matt's making the most sense to me.
If an unnamed ki blast could travel at high speeds, then it doesn't make sense for any of Akuma's more commonly used and powerful moves to be any slower.
If an unnamed ki blast could travel at high speeds, then it doesn't make sense for any of Akuma's more commonly used and powerful moves to be any slower.
- 6,206
- 686
Not sure where I fall on the Bison thing though
- 32,359
- 20,298
Well, Bison's laser can be fired from Taiwan to a satellite, and from the satellite to another continent, in seconds, and Bison moved at speeds comparable to it with his Psycho Crusher.
It was calced at Mach 300+
It was calced at Mach 300+
- 6,206
- 686
Well, if there's nothing suggesting that it's an outlier/inconsistency, I'm personally fine with it
- 32,359
- 20,298
The values are pretty close to Akuma's Ki Blast. Also this isn't quantifiable but in SFV, Karin can kick people into other continents supposedly.
- 32,359
- 20,298
Most actually agrees with it all the times I checked. And it was actually more or less agreed to be applied last time this was discussed but I never did.
- 31,463
- 34,328
- Thread starter
- #61
I'm neutral on whether or not Bison's speed gets upgraded; but if it does, I only think it should scale to the top tier characters. Anyone alright if I go ahead and edit Sagat and Dhalsim's durability?
- 32,359
- 20,298
Yeah, only the best characters get scaling.
- 31,463
- 34,328
- Thread starter
- #64
Well, they still currently have Small Island level durability, but it was agreed to be downgraded to Small Town level+ to match his AP, but the edits weren't done quite yet.
- 32,359
- 20,298
I edited their durabilities to normal.
- 9,738
- 1,523
The funny thing is that if the wiki was present when Alpha 3 was released, every characters would have been at least Supersonic+ Multi-City Block level via Guile Sonic Booms and Balrog/Birdie bad ending because it was the highest feat for the characters at the time. At least High 7-A for the God Tiers via Alpha 2 Akuma ending, same for speed via Alpha Bison travel/attack speed for flying at speeds comparable to the beam.
- 64
- 13
Unrelated to topic at hand, but didn't the Bison/Birdie feat get recalced to higher here:Dark649 said:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U..._Again_+_Chun-li_Does_Some_S**t_(Vivi's_Calc)
(even if we argue it's non-nuclear, halving the results would still get town).
- 32,359
- 20,298
The Large Town level calc is the same thing that currently makes them Low 7-C. It would indeed upgrade the characters if it was accepted.
- 32,359
- 20,298
https://www.narutoforums.org/threads/imagines-street-fighter-calculations.1073645/
Chun-Li's feat was calced at 500 Kilotons here.
And it's less about if Balrog and Birdie tanked it, but the fact that weakened M. Bison's power caused a nuclear explosion when he died
https://youtu.be/5MIGlvb-iww?t=120
Which Vivi calced at 186 Kilotons.
Chun-Li's feat was calced at 500 Kilotons here.
And it's less about if Balrog and Birdie tanked it, but the fact that weakened M. Bison's power caused a nuclear explosion when he died
https://youtu.be/5MIGlvb-iww?t=120
Which Vivi calced at 186 Kilotons.
- 32,359
- 20,298
Well, I'm fine with Small Town or Large Town either way.
- 32,359
- 20,298
But if that's the case I'm changing Bison's reasoning to "At least Small Town level (Stronger than the majority of the cast)", because his profile links to a speed calc for AP.
- 32,359
- 20,298
Anyway, since the original purpose of the thread was served and the God-Tiers had their speed upgraded, think thread should be closed?
- 32,359
- 20,298
Alright.
- Status
