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No stake in this but this is not true. Average size planets in DB are, but not Earth, which is explicitly stated to be small
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RWBY: Penny lifting Amity and bomb ends
- Thread starter Spinoirr
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Spinoirr
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- #43
The height for amity at its lowest is based on an angsizing calc of where Penny was in the sky using Atlas in the distance as a point of reference, and the value is backed up by the various visual indicators listed in both the OP and the explanation section of the calc itself. 'It doesnt look that fast' is nowhere near a sufficient argument when all of the math, the visual context from Smith's location in the atmosphere, and the various statements given throughout the show and the season all support that it is actually moving that fast.
He refers to them as drifting because they were moving horizontally in the direction of the destroyed stabilizer, they were falling in an arc that was mostly horizontal. Theres scans of this in the calc.
No I completely understand, it's just that what you're describing does not apply to this scenario because it's not how Gravity Dust works. It's not providing upward thrust or upward force to keep Amity in place, it's literally altering how gravity as a force affects Amity to keep it in place. Yes only the stabilizers have the gravity dust, but it's because of them it's basically locking
Since you dont like my previous analogy, it's the difference between earth gravity vs the lack of gravity in outer space. On earth if you're in the air you fall down, in space if you're just floating there you cant really go anywhere. That is the form of zero gravity being applied to Amity when all of its stabilizers are active, it's not being pulled down to the planet nor is it being propelled upwards, it is locked at one altitude because gravity is no longer affecting it. In the same way, when one of the stabilizers stops working, Amity goes from 'zero gravity' to 'lower gravity', like the difference between the gravity of earth and the moon. With one of the stabilizers destroyed, amity is experiencing only 1/4th of Remnant's gravitational pull as it falls.
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None of what you just said supports that it is falling fast. Everything shows that it is moving very slow actually. The only thing that supports your claim that it’s falling fast is that you calced a distance of where it was, put it against where low orbit starts, and thus claim it’s falling that fast.
“Drift” as in they are falling slow. If they are falling at several hundred meters a second, why are they not falling onto the ceiling? You ignored that point completely. “They are not visually moving at the speed you are claiming they are” is very much a valid argument, especially when nothing supports you but several things oppose you. All your “research” is not relevant to the very clear discrepancies being displayed on screen. Also no characters say anything that supports you, that’s just a straight up cap.
You trying to interpret “we will drift and fall somewhere north” as “he’s only talking about their horizontal movement not their vertical movement” is the peak of purposeful ignorance. He would not say they are drifting horizontally, Amity is ALWAYS moving horizontally, he wouldn’t randomly remark, in response to a broken stabilizer, that they are drifting horizontally. That makes ZERO sense and is a bad read of the situation. The stabilizer’s DO NOT PREVENT AMITY FROM MOVING LATERALLY. If a stabilizer is damaged and he says BECAUSE a stabilizer is damaged, they are drifting, he is very obviously referring to the fact they are falling from the sky.
He says “we missed our window” because they are falling down out of the broadcast range. Because the stabilizer is broken. They are drifting down. You are simply ignoring every other context of the scene to claim the “drift” isn’t in regard to them falling slowly, because you don’t want it to contradict your belief that they are falling at supersonic speeds.
Actually, hold on, how the HECK are they falling at supersonic speeds but Amity ISN’T BURNING UP???? Penny starts to free fall and INSTANTLY catches on fire because of terminal velocity, as you use for your example of how far up she is. So if she is burning from falling that fast… how is Amity NOT burning up??? Far higher mass, a lot more friction and air resistance, but no flames or heat to show how ridiculously fast its re-entry is??? Shouldn’t Pietro be worried about their speed of re-entry if they’re falling at supersonic speeds from low orbit???? It simply makes 0 sense.
I already said I don’t care about the 1/4 so your last paragraph is irrelevant.
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I would just like to confirm I’m not going insane, right?No i mean, figure out the energy from it falling naturally.
Figure out the energy from it falling with ****** up stabilizers. By doing this, we can figure out the energy the stabilizers were outputting to keep it from just hard dropping like a brick.
Subtract that from penny's lifting it up, as evidently, the work to cause it to simply drift from the stabilizers, as opposed to just hard dropping, isnt due to her and must be subtracted from her value.
Given this is all the same exact feat, calc stacking shouldnt apply, it'd just be calculating aspects of one whole.
Of course this is a ******* pain in the ass but shrug, aint me doing it so
Weekly’s argument is that the big rock has to be at a certain height, because at that height, objects catch on fire as they enter the atmosphere at high speeds.
The claim is that a giant, several kilometer big chunk of rock is falling from low orbit at supersonic to high hypersonic speeds, for nearly 3 minutes straight, but it does not burn up.
A 5’5 robot girl falls from this same height, hits terminal velocity quickly, and begins to burn up within seconds.
More mass = more kinetic energy = rock should be on fire faster than girl since rock is bigger and going faster for longer amount of time.
Am I alone in finding this completely broken information that dismantles the entire assumed speed going on here?
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Spinoirr = WeeklyBattles confirmed???
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Spin copy pastes Weekly’s arguments whenever they have an idea, keep up with the news old timer
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Anyways, I only really came here to clear up a point that wasn't exactly true, I've got no stake in this at all. But, since I'm here, I'll give a brief evaluation: It does look pretty damning that this thing never caught fire despite its speed when Penny reaching terminal velocity causes her to burn up in seconds. I normally wouldn't really care about the "burning up" thing since fiction at times has a tendency to ignore it no matter the fall speed, but if RWBY's going out of its way to show that it can happen, it's pretty contradictory to the calc that Amity doesn't burn up at all.
Spinoirr
He/Him- 16,146
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- #50
Given Penny you know, still caught the damn thing and pushed it back up, she still struggled to lift it meaning it still has Mass and weight, also the fact that we see on the screen as a visual aid for how far it fell
And also the fact that we see how high Amity is originally via penny looking outside Amity as a visual aid
Also fiction tends to be weird like this too tbh (where one thing lighter then another burns up in the atmosphere yet another that's heavier doesn't) also where a character says something yet is contradicted by what's shown (aka writers not knowing how strong or fast their characters are)
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Spinoirr
He/Him- 16,146
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- #51
Wait don't smaller objects burn up in the atmosphere way faster then larger objects do?
Also for something to burn up in the atmosphere I'd need to to Mach 5, Amity was falling at Mach 2 instead (make sense Penny would burn up faster given she has no zero gravity thrusters to slow her down as she fell)
Spinoirr
He/Him- 16,146
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- #52
It doesnt though. We have a distance it fell, and we have a timeframe it fell in. Put those two things together and we get a velocity.
No, 'drift' as in 'moving off course'. Once again, your entire argument is based solely on the claim of 'it doesnt look like its moving fast so it must not be'. There is too much evidence to support that it is moving fast for that argument to hold any weight. And yes, they do, Pietro is the one who states that they need to be in atmospheric orbit as well as mentioning things like the dangerously cold temperatures of the atmosphere outside of Amity.
Again, no, "we will drift and fall somewhere north" is talking about both horizontal and vertical movement, because Amity was falling in an arc, not straight down. Amity wouldnt have been moving at all if all four stabilizers were active, because it was meant to stay at a single location in the atmosphere, not move around unless Pietro was piloting it to move somewhere. I'm unsure where youre getting the idea that I was only referring to 'drift' as horizontal movement, because I brought up Amity drifting in an arc with both horizontal and vertical movement before. Also I've always saw the line about drifting as "We'll fall until we reach a specific hight above the ground and then drift north" because why else would he say fall alongside drift in the same sentence, also we see Amity after this and times before floating fine at a low height above the ground, as the stabilizers are ment to make sure it stayed in the atmosphere
This is because its only falling at 615 m/s. Even for an object of that size and mass, it would need to be falling at over twice that speed to catch on fire from the friction of the atmosphere, because burning up in the atmosphere starts at 1715 m/s. Amity's reentry isnt ridiculously fast, it is slower than normal reentry speed. I remember this due to me making a calc for my mha fan fiction on fcoc where Jukido slammed down a massive rock, and it caught fire and I had to look this up
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Her catching it is irrelevant to how fast it is falling, and again, your calculated distance of Amity’s current height is the ONLY THING that implies high fall speed. Pietro’s statement that they are drifting, the visual showing of its fall speed when Penny initially catches it, the lack of ANY sign of high velocity such as objects falling upwards or urgency from crashing into the ground hard enough to DESTROY ALL OF ATLAS, and most importantly, just looking at the screen and seeing it either not move for several seconds or only seeing it slightly move, are all things that oppose your calculation for its fall speed.
Oh, so you’re blaming it on the writers now? The writers know that things burn in the atmosphere at high velocity but ignore that same principle for Amity? It’s almost like they know that Amity is falling at an incredibly slower speed than Penny is. Trying to claim the authors are just ignorant because everything else they have written contradicts your stance is not a strong position. Prove that their knowledge of objects burning in the atmosphere is faulty, you can’t just say “oh authors get things wrong all the time” as an excuse.
Please for the love of all things understand what you are saying. Amity is SLOWED DOWN by the stabilizers. HOW are the stabilizers slowing it down?
They are providing force AGAINST it. In order for Amity to be moving slow AT ALL in this scenario and NOT reach massive amounts of speed, something has to be PREVENTING IT from speeding up. If the stabilizers are actively making Amity not fall as fast as it should be, then they are providing an upward force against the gravity Amity is experiencing.
You have contradicted yourself on how the stabilizers work like 3 times now. Your original claim of “Amity isn’t affected by the gravity dust” was just a lie I guess.
Hey so fun fact about falling: you have acceleration too. It doesn’t matter how big an object is, if nothing is pushing against or affecting it in a way that opposes gravity, falling objects move faster the more time that they are falling. Amity was falling for over 6 minutes straight.
Oh, so you understand that they are drifting horizontally AND vertically? So you know that Pietro is claiming their descent is slow?
See, your interpretation of the line would be correct if it wasn’t based on literally nothing that Pietro said. Pietro doesn’t mention ANYTHING about falling in the sentence. His exact words were:
“At this rate, we’ll likely drift until touching down just north of-“
He is talking about the RATE of their descent, comparing it to DRIFTING, and guessing where they will TOUCH DOWN at. Everything in that sentence is 100% in reference to their vertical descent. Amity ALREADY floated from side to side WITHOUT a damaged stabilizer, he would not care to mention that when speaking about their failure to broadcast at the proper VERTICAL height.
“It’s only falling at 615 m/s”
My guy. It has acceleration. Because it is affected by gravity. If you are claiming that nothing is affecting its weight significantly, then it would not be falling 615 m/s. It would be falling a far lower speed, and have eventually gone down 615 meters over the course of 6 minutes due to accelerating at 9.81 m/s^2
In fact, let’s really talk about this: AMITY HAS BEEN FALLING FOR OVER 6 MINUTES.
As you recognize in the free-fall portion of your calculation, Amity had been falling for 6 minutes and 15 seconds. That means Amity has had an acceleration, has had weight, for 6 minutes and 15 seconds. Do you not believe it would have hit terminal velocity a ridiculous amount of time ago? Or do you realize that it’s incredibly likely that it fell an indeterminate distance at a very slow rate?
Spinoirr
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King can you calm down?
Seems like you're not responding in a calm way, and wait on calc members too
Also yes, the three gravity dust thrusters did play a part in slowing down its fall given it was falling slower then the speed needed to catch on fire from the friction of the atmosphere perpetually due to that(you know I can change my mind right)
Anyways I'll respond to the rest later
Seems like you're not responding in a calm way, and wait on calc members too
Also yes, the three gravity dust thrusters did play a part in slowing down its fall given it was falling slower then the speed needed to catch on fire from the friction of the atmosphere perpetually due to that
Anyways I'll respond to the rest later
Spinoirr
He/Him- 16,146
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Not really seeing as the heights of green Aurora, which are measurements done by Nasa, support that as well. Them drifting is irrelevant because they arent just drifting horizontally, they are moving both horizontally AND vertically, falling in an arc. At this point it feels like you are just ignoring this fact. Your argument that things arent falling upwards doesnt work because, As I said before, Amity was only experiencing 1/4th the gravity of the planet due to the three active stailizers, meaning it would not have been falling fast enough for things to just be flung into the ceiling. So once again we are back to the only thing opposing the calculation being your opinion that it isnt moving that fast because you dont think it is moving that fast.
Easy, Penny a few seconds before she fell and caught on fire fell a futher distance without catching on fire, and for Penny to catch on fire almost instantly from falling her mass would be almost equal to Amity's.
The stabilizers are not providing a force against it. That is not how they work at all. They are turning gravity off entirely. I keep saying this and you keep ignoring it.
Please post where I said that "Amity isn’t affected by the gravity dust". Because I've been saying the same thing the entire time, that the stabilizers are lessening the effects of gravity on Amity without providing upward thrust. You've just been consistently ignoring it because you refuse to acknowledge how the magic system in this series works.
Actually yes, you're right about that. So accounting for Amity only experiencing 1/4th gravity due to the three active stabilizers
Amity at the moment Penny caught it would be falling at 918.75 m/s. Still not fast enough to catch on fire or make the people inside be flung into the ceiling mind you, but this does bump the KE value up slightly.
You keep saying that Pietro is saying they are descending slowly. He never once says this. You are actually just making this up to fit your argument (He just said drifting yes, but earth is drifting through space and that doesnt mean its not moving at 107,000 kilometers per hour. basically amity is falling 1/4th slower than it would without all four stabilizers, amity is falling 1/4th slower than it would without all four stabilizers) so yes it is falling slower then it normally would but that doesn't mean it's a slow decent
So wait, you acknowledge the fact that I did a terminal velocity calculation, but didnt actually look at the numbers?
Because I did the math already, I found what Amity's terminal velocity would be, and with the values I got, Amity would not have gotten anywhere near terminal velocity in the timeframe it was falling. So no, Amity was not falling slowly, nor is the distance indeterminate. It is very much falling quickly over an easily determinable distance.
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So now your argument is that the stabilizers remove gravity from Amity, making it weight less? That’s a completely different statement than before when you claimed that the stabilizers do not change anything about Amity. Your precise words included that BECAUSE Amity’s gravity isn’t being affected, the people inside aren’t experiencing any different gravity either.
How high they are is not relevant nor what I’m arguing against. How high the peak of Anity was above where Penny is? That’s where I have issues. Your claims that they are falling at nearly a kilometer a second which is contradicted by every single frame of the scene, dialogue and urgency is quite the disconnect.
“Them moving slowly downward does not matter,” as if that isn’t the complete antithesis to your argument? No, YOU are the one confused about the drifting. I’ve said multiple times that they are drifting vertically and horizontally, you’re just completely ignoring the reality of what that means for speed. Drifting, by definition, is a slow movement. Earth does not “drift” through space except in the loosest of terms, as many do not recognize the speed at which the planet regularly travels. “Drift” in this context is very clearly talking about the slow plummet they are experiencing. Your denial over it does not change the results.
So you think that Penny has mass equal to Amity…? I don’t even know what you’re trying to explain in that response regarding her catching fire. Amity fell for a longer time at 1/4 the rate. But Penny caught fire, despite her massively lower mass,
Saying I’m “ignoring” how anti-gravity works because your explanations have swapped back and forth to fit whatever argument you want to press is not the flex you believe it is. I suppose if you are now cementing your stance as “Anti-Gravity Dust is negating all of Amity’s weight,” something you failed to mention when I explicitly asked you how do the stabilizers keep Amity afloat, then we can proceed from there. I proposed numerous options through which the stabilizers operated, but you didn’t pick up on that.
Also as for where you said the anti-gravity had no affect on Amity’s weight:
Funny story about that terminal velocity you calculated, every single link you have takes me to a screen that is missing some key information. As Amity is cone-shaped, its drag coefficient should be 0.5, making Amity’s terminal velocity 953 m/s. Going by your now assumed velocity, Amity 100% has nearly reached terminal velocity, and should be burning up. The drag against that object as it enters atmosphere from low orbit with such a high mass and so much time to be hitting and compressing the air around it would make it catch on fire without question, not to mention the lack of a shockwave as it shatters the sound barrier would be one of the first signals of its incredibly high speed.
But no. Penny had enough time to leave Amity, stare out for several seconds, turn around and fly down and catch it with it barely moving. The lack of urgency in this scene, Pietro’s drifting statement, Penny’s motions relative to Amity’s, and the one clear shot of its downward motion that you did not speak about? Yeah, I’m not buying what you’re selling.
All of your “evidence” lends itself to a single conclusion: Amity, when Penny is about to push it back up, is pretty high up. I don’t dispute that. What I do dispute is one of two things: either its peak height is not what you’re claiming it is, or the height you calculated it to be at is not accurate. Either way, the end result of “Amity cannot be falling at a kilometer a second going by everything else around it” is the far more likely explanation.
Also, I have put no words in Pietro’s mouth. You are the one that misconstrued his words with a bizarre muddling of what he said. He claims they are drifting, and they are in an arc. So clearly he means they are drifting horizontally and vertically. To “drift” in the context he is using is to go slow. It is in the very definition of the word. I highly doubt a genius scientist would be 100% calm about their descent if it was going at such a speed that they would destroy all of Atlas and kill themselves in the process.
Pietro stops Penny from flying out and attempting to stop Amity… but he doesn’t care that if she doesn’t try, they will all die from Amity hitting the ground hard enough to instantly pulverize the entire structure? Penny isn’t even concerned with them falling, she wants to push it back up to get the message out not to save their lives. If they are falling at such an insane speed (with nothing around them displaying such speed), why are they not more concerned of their imminent deaths?
“I don’t care about the big picture I care about my daughter” in response to being in a floating coffin falling a kilometer a second that will kill his daughter? Why is she or him not freaking out at their rapid descent or if they’re going to kill anyone from dropping the equivalent of Sokovia on top of them? Probably has something to do with the calm manner he says “At this rate, we’ll likely drift until touching down just north.”
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Spinoirr
He/Him- 16,146
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- #57
Should reword what I mean
What I mean when I say "Amity was only experiencing 1/4th the gravity of the planet due to the three active stailizers, meaning it would not have been falling fast enough for things to just be flung into the ceiling" and "The stabilizers are not providing a force against it. That is not how they work at all. They are turning gravity off entirely"
Is that the stabilizers have gravity dust in them only right (like I have said before), because of that the stabilizers are causing Amity to basically float in place in the air and stabilize in the air (bc they're stabilizers)
It's like if I removed the gravitational pull of only the tires of a car and it stated floating in place, the car itself still has Mass and weight, it's just the tires are making it float in basically zero G's
If I take away one of the tires keeping it stable in place in the air, of course I'll start to drop downwards at a angle because it now has one side now expressing normal gravity
What I mean when I say "Amity was only experiencing 1/4th the gravity of the planet due to the three active stailizers, meaning it would not have been falling fast enough for things to just be flung into the ceiling" and "The stabilizers are not providing a force against it. That is not how they work at all. They are turning gravity off entirely"
Is that the stabilizers have gravity dust in them only right (like I have said before), because of that the stabilizers are causing Amity to basically float in place in the air and stabilize in the air (bc they're stabilizers)
It's like if I removed the gravitational pull of only the tires of a car and it stated floating in place, the car itself still has Mass and weight, it's just the tires are making it float in basically zero G's
If I take away one of the tires keeping it stable in place in the air, of course I'll start to drop downwards at a angle because it now has one side now expressing normal gravity
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…what?
You understand that, if the tires have no weight, but the car still does, that the car would simply push down on the tires and they would not move, right? The tires don’t suddenly gain the ability to lift all things in the universe because they are unbound by gravity, that’s literally the exact opposite of what would happen.
If I had a zero gravity object smaller than me and I exerted a downward force onto it, essentially giving it an acceleration, then it would go in the direction of the greater force acting upon it. Ochako Uraraka shows this power perfectly, she makes an object have no gravity, and can thus throw it around with ease.
The car, in your example, and the tires still have mass and inertia. If the car is > the tires, then the tires are barely doing anything to the car. That’d be like saying if Amity was weightless and a toddler pushed against it, Amity would move at any kind of significant pace, which is not true.
Zero gravity is not an auto-float button for anything that comes in contact with the zero g object. Inertia still has to be overcome, so even if all 4 stabilizers were active in this explanation, Amity, being heavier and applying a constant force to the stabilizers which have no weight, would fall.
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12:47-12:50
Why are you not just using this scene where we can clearly see the rate of Amity’s descent to calculate its current speed?
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@Chariot190 @CloverDragon03 @DMUA
Would you be willing to help out further here please?
I was requested to notify some calc group members about this discussion.
Would you be willing to help out further here please?
I was requested to notify some calc group members about this discussion.
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I mean my opinion's pretty clear, especially after reading the rest of the discussion. It doesn't look like the calc can be used in its current state
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I said what I think should be done, the only way I can see to salvage it and account for the stabilizers, while still calcing what Penny did.
I dont know nearly enough about RWBY to do it myself thoplus i have like 40 things i need to calc anyway, ill eval it at least
I dont know nearly enough about RWBY to do it myself tho
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No, this just shouldn't be used as is.
Spinoirr
He/Him- 16,146
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why is this feat fine, yet Penny's isn't. it's literally the same feat
Like will literally lifts up the school after the school's zero gravity things activate. either Penny's feat is valid to be used as is or Sky High gets downgraded
Like will literally couldn't lift the school at all until that wire was cut and the zero gravity things were put back online. Penny meanwhile can lift Amity despite one out of four zero gravity stabilizer being gone
if need be i can adjust the calc to match Dargoo's method
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Seems like a Whataboutism. If Sky High has issues make a thread for that verse.
Spinoirr
He/Him- 16,146
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- #68
Hmmm I guess so until I come up with a better solution I guess
However this calc would at least affect the lifting strength
57182412382.4 kg
Of note, this math does not include the communication tower or the four thrusters, which would make the result slightly higher.
Also of note, Penny scales to the full value of this, as confirmed in the same episode the stabilizers provided no upward thrust whatsoever, they were there solely to keep Amity locked in one position in the atmosphere. Pietro needed the four thrusters as well as the detonation of a mountain of raw Dust to launch Amity into the atmosphere.
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Okay. If you need a calculation evaluated, can you link to the blog post that it is located in please?
Also, if the main part of that series of calculations has been rejected, maybe it is best if you copy-paste the part that only concerns lifting strength to a new blog post first?
Also, if the main part of that series of calculations has been rejected, maybe it is best if you copy-paste the part that only concerns lifting strength to a new blog post first?
Spinoirr
He/Him- 16,146
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- #72
Found something that may change things
this is what pietro was referring to when he said they were 'drifting'
literally just moving off course, you guys really heard 'drift' and immediately latched on to it meaning 'slow' instead of actually looking for what it meant in the context of the scene
Like Amity is moving, they're saying it's drifting
In context they mean it's drifting off course (the range needed for the broadcast). Nowhere in that context does it mean its falling slowly and as I already said it wasn't falling to be burning up in the air
this is what pietro was referring to when he said they were 'drifting'
literally just moving off course, you guys really heard 'drift' and immediately latched on to it meaning 'slow' instead of actually looking for what it meant in the context of the scene
Like Amity is moving, they're saying it's drifting
In context they mean it's drifting off course (the range needed for the broadcast). Nowhere in that context does it mean its falling slowly and as I already said it wasn't falling to be burning up in the air
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No. Pietro in this moment is not referring to the difference between their current heading and their projected course. Please actually listen to what he is saying.
“A stabilizer was damaged. We’ve missed our mark. At this rate, we’ll likely drift until touching down just north-”
He has already qualified that they are off target. There is no “course” they are taking. Their goal was reaching a certain altitude, which they failed to do. The “course” of their orbit around Remnant is irrelevant in this moment, as the more pressing matter is that they are falling and didn’t reach the altitude they needed due to a damaged stabilizer.
“At this rate, we’ll likely drift until touching down” is very clearly referring to the fact that they are moving in an arc relative to their height, not relative to a “course” or “track” they are supposed to be on and are not on it.
The description you’re using is hyper specific in regards to wind causing an aircraft to move off target from its track, making it slightly off target when it reaches its goal. Amity does not have a track, it had an altitude it wanted to reach and didn’t. Hence why he references the stabilizer being damaged and that they are going to touch down north. Because the pressing matter was NEVER about a particular course they are meant to be on that they are now not on, it was always about reaching the required altitude and getting the signal out while staying in orbit.
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