Retsu Kaioh vs Chun-Li (5-8-0) GRACE

[N-nani]

Retsu: 5

Chun-li: 8

incon:

Chun scales to 0.04 tons while Retsu scales to 0.035 tons
Both are Supersonic speed but Retsu doesn't have an exact number and is likely higher so I'll play it safe and equalize speed anyway
Battle takes place in a UFC octagon, however the whole stadium could be used. No empty purgatory, No weapons in the ring.

 

[SamanPatou]

0.35 tons is more than 7.5X Chun-Li's AP (other than bieng 8-C, not 9-A), making the match a stomp.

 

[N-nani]

oops it's supposed to be 0.035

OP is fixed

 

[Mariogoods]

Chun-Li holds minor AP advantage and she has power boosts. It means that the battle is not one-sided. However, Retsu's breath attack ("Can fire compressed blasts of air from his mouth to blind opponents") and pressure point attack ("KO'd a comparable opponent with a single strike") means that Retsu would surely win in close-ranged combat. It also seems that Retsu has better intelligence because "Is one of the best masters at Chinese martial arts" and "As a trained martial artist, both physically and mentally, Retsu Kaioh possesses a level of intelligence unachievable by most commoners, and like other master martial artists in the franchise, Retsu can easily decipher one's fighting technique, how it is utilized and its weaknesses. Was considered skilled and versatile by Musashi Miyamoto", which could help him deal with Chun-Li's long-ranged attack and short-ranged attack.

I vote to Retsu FRA.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

retsu FRA

 

[SamanPatou]

Martial artists matches are always difficult to analyze, so I'm going to ask: What are Retsu's achievements in this key? In terms of training, experience, victories etc...

I will expand Chun-Li's profile at some point to include the aforementioned things, for now, I'm quickly going to list the most relevant points here:

• She trained for pretty much her life, under he father, under Gen and on her own, learning kenpo, Kung Fu and other martial arts
• Is considered among the best fighters of her world
• Entered 3 world tournaments
• Regularly fights and trains against other expert martial artists due to her job and personal missions. These characters include (the bolded names are people she is comparable to and/or has defeated at least once): Birdie, Guile, Cammy, Ryu, Vega, Balrog, FANG, Gen, M. Bison, Juri, C. Viper, Urien, Rashid, Charlie Nash. She is also acquaintanced to Abel, Ken, Zangief, Karin, Dhalsim and such, meaning she might have fought and/or trained with them.
  • Also, consider that opponents such as FANG can kill you with just a graze, and he himself is already an exceptionally expert assassin, meaning that defeating him wouldn't be easy at all, especially when he wasn't holding back.

As said, AP is almost the same, but Chun has a few ways to boost her own, so that's an advantage.

In terms of fighting styles, both use chinese martial arts, so they should be already somewhat used to such styles, but Chun's is more unorthodox and less realistic, thus Retsu could have problems analyzing and reacting to it, even with his own enhanced senses, which are pretty good and an advantage to not underestimate.

Chun seems much more agile, with all the acrobatic moves, somersaults, slides, wall jumps, body climbing etc... but I don't know to what extend they would represent an advantage.

Chun has better projectiles, as she can basically fire kikokens and ex kikokens more easily and cause higher damage than Retsu's air projectiles, which don't seem to cause any sensible damage, just blind the opponent. Sure, Chun would be hindered a lot by being blinded (although it depends on how much the effect lasts), but from the scans I've seen, such projectile depends a lot on the surprise factor, and on Retsu being faster and stronger than the blinded opponent.
Since Chun-Li has quite a lot of experience against enemies who fire projectiles, she might be able to anticipate and/or react to him firing this attack. After all, you can see Retsu bringing his hands to his mouth as to spit something. A normal person would be puzzled by such weird thing in a fight, but another who's used to deal with fireballs, energy blades, ki blasts and such might behave differently.
Also, Chun-Li's Kikosho is a good tool in a purely cqc fight, as she can pull off this focused ki sphere/dome from close range, and its power is decently above her average AP output.

Retsu's weakness of losing self-control might be incredibly detrimental depending on how much it affects Retsu, as Chun is quite composed and focused (especially by SF3) and it might make a huge difference in the fight.

Retsu's pressure point strikes are a very good advantage, but I must point out that Chun has trained with Gen, who makes extensive use of such attacks, and as mentioned above she has experience dealing with characters who can kill or deal huge damage with a single hit, ranging from FANG to just Vega having a bladed gauntlet.

It also seems that Retsu has better intelligence because "Is one of the best masters at Chinese martial arts"

You can basically say the same of Chun-Li tbh

and "As a trained martial artist, both physically and mentally, Retsu Kaioh possesses a level of intelligence unachievable by most commoners,

What are the actual applications and feats related to this?
Because even in SF you have a bunch of moments where normal people are amazed by things performed even by mid tiers, considering them impossible to perform.

Like, even just using ki in the SF verse means you transcend what can normally be achieved by humans.
This was the power of "ki," a product of training and self-discipline. A pinnacle of martial prowess attained by those select few fighters who transcended the natural in their pursuit of championship.

and like other master martial artists in the franchise, Retsu can easily decipher one's fighting technique, how it is utilized and its weaknesses. Was considered skilled and versatile by Musashi Miyamoto", which could help him deal with Chun-Li's long-ranged attack and short-ranged attack.

This is true, although I'd like to know what kind of opponents has he analyzed and how.
I'm not trying to downplay him at all, and I believe that, if such ability is legit, he could analyze Chun's style, but it might prove difficult due to how unorthodox it is, and ki attacks could still be difficult to deal with even if you know how they work.
And remember that these are abilities that martial artists normally develop, although not to supernatural levels, meaning that Chun-Li could do the same to some extent.

 

[Mariogoods]

This is true, although I'd like to know what kind of opponents has he analyzed and how.
I'm not trying to downplay him at all, and I believe that, if such ability is legit, he could analyze Chun's style, but it might prove difficult due to how unorthodox it is, and ki attacks could still be difficult to deal with even if you know how they work.
And remember that these are abilities that martial artists normally develop, although not to supernatural levels, meaning that Chun-Li could do the same to some extent.

I have found this in his AP (Superior to New Grappler Baki and Katsumi Orochi, an equal to Dorian Kaioh and easily defeated Doyle, can do this and this) I believe his skill can compare to them too. Doyle can:

Hypnosis: Dorian can activate this at any point to make the opponent believe they are fighting him still, as well as beating them with the best possible outcome their mind can produce; it is seamless and most warriors won't know it started until it's too late and Dorian has finished them off

For Restu himself, he can

Defensive Shaorii: "Defensive Shaorii is a form of bodily control that allows the user to completely relax their body to a feather-like state, allowing them to present zero resistance to oncoming blows. It also produces hyposthenia, which allows the user to absorb all their attacker's body weight. With that, the user can't take damage from punches, kicks or slashes, as the attack would meet no resistance from the Shaorii users body, and the user would simply flow with the attack like a blade of grass in the wind."​

and more.

Musashi Miyamoto (the person who think he's not bad) can:

Musashi is a battlefield genius. He is extremely perceptive, thoughtful and has immense wisdom over the arts of war, especially sword fighting. He knows every sword fighting technique there is and many others, which can effectively counter just about every other fighting style in the series. He was so skilled with the sword and in battle, that he learned how to cut people without even using his swords and his mind can pick up the signals of people's brains when they prepare to attack

That's what I could get from their profiles. A knowledgeable member about Baki is needed.

 

[SamanPatou]

I have found this in his AP (Superior to New Grappler Baki and Katsumi Orochi, an equal to Dorian Kaioh and easily defeated Doyle, can do this and this) I believe his skill can compare to them too. Doyle can:

Having comparable strength isn't the same as having comparable skill, and the Hypnosis technique seems to be exclusive to Doyle.

For Restu himself, he can

He doesn't know this technique in this key, since Retsu's P&A section puts it in his third key.

Musashi Miyamoto (the person who think he's not bad) can:

This also means little, since Musashi just defined him as Not bad, which is kind of a low-level appreciation.

 

[SamanPatou]

Bump

 

[N-nani]

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[N-nani]

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[Stillwinston]

Best Waifu Kaioh FRA

 

[LordGinSama]

Which Retsu is being used here?

 

[N-nani]

Which Retsu is being used here?

Maximum Tournament Arc to New Grappler Baki

 

[N-nani]

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[N-nani]

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[N-nani]

Bump
I'll input some, y not



I honestly feel both are equal in skill h2h tbh. I honestly feel what characters do in SF isn't too different from Baki.

Regularly fights and trains against other expert martial artists due to her job and personal missions. These characters include (the bolded names are people she is comparable to and/or has defeated at least once): Birdie, Guile, Cammy, Ryu, Vega, Balrog, FANG, Gen, M. Bison, Juri, C. Viper, Urien, Rashid, Charlie Nash. She is also acquaintanced to Abel, Ken, Zangief, Karin, Dhalsim and such, meaning she might have fought and/or trained with them.

wanna also point out, Ryu, Dhalsim and Nash are skill-based powerhouses in SF. M.bison also but she never wins for obvious reasons. Her fighting experience against Retsus might balance out considering the difference of their opponents. Even if Retsu overwhelms her close, she definitely has range advantage. Chi or ci or whatever is also going to be a big factor and after Retsu sees that, it's going to be the main concern on his mind.

Now with all that said, Retsu is more akin to a hunter. He's often not just trying to defeat the opponent, but to completely destroy them.

It also seems that Retsu has better intelligence because "Is one of the best masters at Chinese martial arts" and "As a trained martial artist, both physically and mentally, Retsu Kaioh possesses a level of intelligence unachievable by most commoners, and like other master martial artists in the franchise, Retsu can easily decipher one's fighting technique, how it is utilized and its weaknesses.

The combative domination Retsu displays will absolutely be a problem and Chun will need to make use of her game mechanics. (stuns, Status effects, EX moves blah blah blah) But Retsu can go as far as using his hair. The guy is something else. Although both fighters have a great sense of honor and in a realistic scenario I see them bowing in the end and walking away to train for their next fight.

I also want to specify, there are no weapons in this fight. No swords, No guns, Dukes only ( I'll update the OP)
I'm not voting, nor do I really know what to side here, I really feel like this is an intensely close match.

 

[LordGinSama]

Baki definitely has a lot better skill feats than SF.

 

[N-nani]

Baki definitely has a lot better skill feats than SF.

In general, yes, I'd even say some characters stick out as practically skillhax

In this case however I find them evenly matched, Baki doesn't have psycho power or yoga stretch, tho SF doesn't have Musashi or Yujiro. Chun has fought with many fighters stronger than her, I think more times than a equal. Retsu is actually in the AP disadvantge here and with some stat boosts Lighting legs becomes alot more threating. But Retsu can power through and land the hits that matter, then Chun could use Kikosho and envelop the whole ring, or Restu could jump out of the ring and continue the fight in the stands. Chun has the acrobatics but Retsu has perfected proficiency. Chun is also a master of Chinese martial arts and both regularly in a tournament of the strongest people of their world.
That's just my thoughts

 

[rawXDglomp]

Retsu's 9A was before he blocked fire unarmed, so its questionable if he could do that to stop her fireballs here. But he's faster than her (weakly justified to begin with; we see her run at max speed in 5 and its slow as ****) running speed even if he can't. He's unlikely to have to deal with more than 1 fireball and that's only if she starts with that. But the fireball block wasn't this key. Not sure if he can use it. His air blowing thing I think was also beyond this point, wasn't it? And slow to use. And super close range. And only effective specifically hitting the eyes.
There's no source at all on why this key of Retsu is 'at least small building'. Why is he? No source on his stamina either. Seems to be purely arbitrary.
But assuming he is, somehow, then they're roughly matched in terms of how hard they hit. I don't remember him having any particularly impressive attack speed feats this early in the story. If memory serves he just 1 shot some guy, 1 shot some other guys knee then lost. His actually good feats are after this part.
Chunners-li on the other hand is largely known for her ability to hit really fast, constantly, over and over again and never tire doing so.
She does this with her legs, also, which outrange arms by their nature. Should do so in this fight given she's nearly as tall as he is.
I see no particularl reason to why he'd be able to dodge her longer ranged attacks and the speed gap isn't so high for him to reach her and negate it.
The simple fact she relies almost entirely on long-ranged kicks and him fairly close ranged strikes is a massive point against him.

They aren't in from the same verse, using the same martial arts (or even from the same china) so in both cases saying 'they're one of the best chinese martial artists' really means nothing. Especially for Retsu. China was incredibly weak in Baki. They had like 2 people worth noting and one was Retsu. Being better than bad fighters isn't noteworthy.

 

[SamanPatou]

Good analysis, however I have to point out a couple of things:

• Her projectiles aren't made of fire, the Kikokens and the Kikosho are pure ki, meaning they would more like act as blunt force on impact
• The Sf casts' subsonic running speed is going to be downgraded soon, but them not running super fast in the cutscenes isn't proof of them being slow, that's just for the sake of the animation, just like every character from other franchises that is supposed to run at super speed isn't seen as a blur when running.
• Retsu's 9-A comes from this calc
• Speed is equalized, meaning that the differences shouldn't be much on an issue, but the effects achieved with speed are still accounted by SBA, thus they can be considered as valid points.

 

[N-nani]

Bump

 

[N-nani]

bump

 

[SamanPatou]

Taking the previous comments on Retsu as reliable, I'd say I'm prone to vote Chun-Li.

She has higher AP and ways to increase it, ranged attacks against which Retsu isn't prepared to deal with and has no real counter measures, higher mobility, remains focused while apparently this Retsu is prone to losing control, has at the very least comparable skill and from what I saw she has more experience, at least regarding the number of opponents she is known as having fought.

Retsu has his own advantages, but I don't think they're going to grant him victory most of the times.

 

[N-nani]

Bump

 

[SamanPatou]

Bump

 

[SamanPatou]

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[Greatsage13th]

Retsu FRA

 

[SamanPatou]

Bump

 

[rawXDglomp]

im vote chunners since i dont think i did before

 

[SamanPatou]

Bump

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

In principle based in the arguments above and since this is first key Retsu then my vote go to Chun.

 

[Lugh_Tuathe_Dé]

Thicc Thighs FRA

 

[Ruijin]

I don't think first key Retsu can win this one. I'll go with Chun-Li.

 

[Popted2]

Retsu FRA

 

[SamanPatou]

Bump

 

[SamanPatou]

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