Resisting Esdeaths Timestop

[Schnee_One]

Define "Absurdly Low" cause no absurdly low temperature is enough for time Stop, outside of maybe absolute zero.

I also never said it didn't have any correlation with her other abilities. Unless you weren't referring to me.

 

[ViperVillian25]

Even with absolute zero temperatures it isn't really possible to freeze time.

Plus Mahapadma when used creates a somewhat of a flash and then everything stops moving (Except Esdeath and later Tatsumi), there is no mention of any drop in temperature and using logic it conflicts with the abilty.

Esdeath is literally just freezing time.

 

[No_Might]

it isnt or shouldnt be possible for her to fly by adding ice to her wrists and ankles

 

[Zero0zero0zero]

Lowering temperatures can affect with the time flow, Absolute zero implies the total absense of kinect energy which according with relativity causes effects on space-time continuum. There's even another wiki character that is able to time stop by lowering temperatures. Esdeath timestop being just a regular timestop would break the entire way of how teigu works on Akame ga Kill.

 

[Schnee_One]

True, this is Fiction.

That said the very character you mention even has resistance to time Stop as opposed to simply being resistant through temperature

 

[Zero0zero0zero]

If you want to put resistance to timestop on Tatsumi profile, sure, he resisted timestop after all, but literally is because cold resistance, so characters with enough cold resistance should do the same.

 

[Schnee_One]

If they resist Cold comparable to time Stop, which to be fair some characters do

I'm down with that

 

[ViperVillian25]

Again I'm new here so don't know too much about the rules, so don't how threads end or not.

But I still don't think that's keeping within what was intended by the Author for Mahapadma, When Esdeath States that she is freezing Time and Space, that is what she is freezing.

Also in order to freeze time on the scale you used would require near infinite energy and speed as Space Time has no mass or energy, and that's without the knowing the extent of the range of Mahapadma.

Unless you are talking about the perspective of one's flow of time? But that would be unrelated.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

but if she is using her ice to freeze the time you should resist the ice being used to freeze it

cold resistance should help you when cold is the reason time had stopped moving

This line of reasoning assumes that Esdeath is targeting people and things to physically freeze to imitate stopped time.
However, this is blatantly false for several reasons:

Esdeath herself says that time and space are frozen.

The author, Takahiro, has gone and included in his Volume additions that Esdeath freezes time and space to stop time.

Susanoo was frozen in air. If Esdeath was targetting people directly then Susanoo would fall from the ground, but he isn't since it's time that is stopped.

Mine's laser is also frozen in air.

The curse on Esdeath's body is stopped which physical freezing could not do.

I still don't agree nor see how cold resistance helps as I outlined above.

Tatsumi already has resistance to Time Stop.

Reminder, there was already a previous thread that removed the "Cold Resistance makes you resistant to Esdeath's Time Stop" which also gave Tatsumi Resistance to Time Stop.

 

[No_Might]

none of those things are resitant to cold and the poision would have still stopped with normal ice as the blood the poision needs to travel to get to the heart is frozen

 

[Schnee_One]

Okay, saying that Heat that is hot enough to vaporize rock isn't resistant to cold is where I have to draw that line. By that point a flame isn't resistant to Ice.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

none of those things are resitant to cold and the poision would have still stopped with normal ice as the blood the poision needs to travel to get to the heart is froze

Esdeath would be dead then, everyone would be dead then. You can't just state this as a fact of what her ability does when nothing supports it and if it were true then people should just straight up die.

And as Gargoyle said, how is heat that can vaporize rock not resistant to cold?

This physical freezing notion doesn't have support for it.

 

[No_Might]

im saying that she is using her ice to target time and space and you should be able to resist the cold thats being used to freeze time


but thats not my point im saying she is using her ice and temp manip powers to freeze time and space as she calls it all the time FREEZING it

 

[DizzyMW3]

How cold is her ice for her able to freeze time?

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

im saying that she is using her ice to target time and space and you should be able to resist the cold thats being used to freeze time

How when what's affecting you isn't cold but the effects of time stop from the time itself being frozen?

The characters and things aren't being hit by cold, they're being hit by the effects of time itself being frozen.

 

[Ragna777]

Honest counters have been made against the fact the a actual time stop, while no good have been made to support. Just constantly saying esdeath said she froze time space and the post script says so, so there. While also twisting other abilites to support the fact that it is and ignore the clear context the story is saying.

1.tatsumi was able to resist it thanks to is ability to adapt to the cold, esdeath said this. Yet people reach around and twist it by saying "yea she did say that but despite the fact she said that's not what she meant. She said she froze time space and tatsumi adapted to space time continuum manipulation." WHAT? No that's not what she meant. Tatusmi incursio no showings suggesting it can go against conceptual attacks, thats a nfl. Anyone could say anything like he can adapt to reality warping, no. She specifically mentioned incursio ability to adapt cold, there would be no reason,nor does it make sense, for her to being up adapt to the cold if he adapted to something else like you all are suggesting. She would of instead brought up what he was actually capable of adapting to, like she did with his adapt to cold. But she didnt. Tatsumi is shown moving a second time when he turns into incursio which puts a consistent to esdeath statement on how full dragon incursio can adapt to cold.

2. Mines laser was frozen because it just a laser/energy it can be frozen. Yet her ability gets twisted to, saying it conceptual and it vibrations which cant freeze. No we see on panel that her power is physical energy that has an effect on objects. She can melt and destory esdeaths ice.

3. Akames sword is twisted to being conceptual to. No its not its just poison with no cure within the agk verse. The poison isnt part of esdeath she can withstand the ability but not poison.

4. Well how are people frozen mid air. Thats because theres no motion going on or capable of happening due to the cold. So air flow is frozen as well. When you fall, air is pusing back against you slowing down, air resistance. If that air was suddenly frozen to you wouldnt fall. People say back "no thats no right, she used it outside so she have able to freeze the wind and snow of icic". Hmm i get what the point of this is, what are you suggesting again. Its just snow it not effecting anyone. Well she does when she use it a second time, the snow stopped to. https://*********.com/Manga/Akame-ga-Kill/Chapter-076?id=327863#37

5. Well why dont people die when the ability is over. Cause the effects are gone. Its just like how an ice user flash freezes someone then unfreezes them and the person is fine after. Esdeath had intented to use this on tatsumi to keep him from escaping. By that logic tatsumi would die when the ability is undone

There is multiple counters.

Then theres No Mights simple explanation she freezes time space but even then cold resistance allows you to resist the cold she using to. One way or the other cold resistance counters it, esdeaths said so herself again she would have no reason to meantion cold adapt if he adapted to something else entirely. To twist and ignore the clear context to give her an ability she doesnt have is unfair. Dont say she was talking about his resistance to her physical ice that not true. She cant use her ice in that moment and she meantioned it while she was flinging at him before when he evolved.

Ive given some clear inputs against the repeated statements. Above

I love how its being said "It's funny how you put stock in what Esdeath says during Mahapadma when Incursio attempts to resist it, but not when she herself states that she is freezing Time and Space." The pure irony in this statement. Cause the same can be said the other way around. "Its funny you put stock in esdeath saying she froze time space, but not in and ignore her specifically mentioning tatsumi incursio ability to adapt to the cold".

We full acknowledge she said she froze time space but we're also acknowledging the on panel explanation as to why as to why someone, who she was fully expecting to be frozen, is moving. Its due to incursio ability to adapt to the cold, thats it. Cold resistance counters it

Yet majority of you acknowledges she said she froze time space but dont acknowledge the on-panel explanation as to why tatsumi could move. Which is what causing all this unnecessary confusion.

Your reaching trying to twist. Saying tatsumi adapted to something else which make zero sense. Its goes agains what the manga said, it goes against what esdeath said. Again why there would be no reason for her to mention incursio ability to adapt something if thats not what he's adapting to. She would mention what he's adapting. Why say something if you mean something else. Plus tatsumi and incursio havent shown to be able to handle conceptual or high level attacks, thats a nfl

Whats with "whats the temp to freeze time and time cant be frozen at this temp"?. Time is a concept that relative to all thing and effects all things. There no temp gauge for it. You or the area around can be frozen at any temp and time would would froze with with you.

I gave counters even to the "they're mid air", then theres No Might explanation still goes with cold resistance. One way or the other its cold resistance.

 

[ViperVillian25]

I'm glad you love it, what you seem to miss is that in the panels where she is explaining her knowledge of Incursio, it is just that knowledge.

There is a comma at the end of that explanation which seperates her next lines from that.

As you have said we are all in agreement that she is freezing time, the how is where we are all differing.

Cold resistance has nothing to do with resisting Mahapadma because she isn't freezing around herself to create a form cryostasis, there is no temperature drop for Incursio to adapt to.

There's also Mine's Pumpkin which no matter how you spin it has a form of temperature that vaporizes rocks, if Esdeath was freezing temperatures than Pumpkin's blast would just disappear, which it doesn't.

 

[No_Might]

it depends on how resistant to cold you are like how tatsumi could only move for a sec im not saying if you could stay in a freezer for a day your immune to it complety

 

[Schnee_One]

Considering Esdeath can literally freeze people solid by touching them, that's nowhere near cold enough.

 

[No_Might]

exactly

 

[Ragna777]

I'm glad you love it, what you seem to miss is that in the panels where she is explaining her knowledge of Incursio, it is just that knowledge.

There is a comma at the end of that explanation which seperates her next lines from that.

As you have said we are all in agreement that she is freezing time, the how is where we are all differing.

Cold resistance has nothing to do with resisting Mahapadma because she isn't freezing around herself to create a form cryostasis, there is no temperature drop for Incursio to adapt to.

There's also Mine's Pumpkin which no matter how you spin it has a form of temperature that vaporizes rocks, if Esdeath was freezing temperatures than Pumpkin's blast would just disappear, which it doesn't.

Yes its knowledge she's using to grasp and explain the situation. Its there for a reason. What you implying is that she just said that to say it. Which would mean its pointless dialogue that didnt need to be there. Which brings me back to my previous statment it would make no sense to bring up it in the first place if it has nothing to do with whats going, she instead would of brought up what he was actually adapting to.

That knowledge is there for a reason, to give us context on why something, why tatsumi is able to move. She clearly brought his ability to adapt to the cold as a means to expain why tatsumi could move. Again if it was something else she would of mentioned that instead. You cabt push aside obvious context, its thanks to ability to adapt to the cold, cold resistance, that let him move.


Im aware mines energy has a temp i broght that up in my previous post. Anyway shockwaves focus into energy form, it can frozen. Also they wouldnt be able to disperse for the same reason the people are stuck in mid air, because are air frozen. Due to air being frozen it would prevent the waves from freey disperse, cause of the resistance.

 

[ViperVillian25]

As I said, That scan is Esdeath stating her knowledge on Incursio.

Even if we assume there is any kind of temperature there to adapt to, which there isn't, how do you go about calculating freezing Time and Space?

Even with Incursio ability to adapt entirely to it's enviroment, plus it already being resist to cold temperatures it wasn't enough to properly resist it, and that's assuming there is anything there to adapt outside of Frozen "Time".

Either way you look at Mine's Pumpkin, it's not possible to lower the temperature of laser that at bare minimum is 4000k without it disappering entirely.

 

[Cyberblader90]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/691736038212632626/691789673101525002/OoJHMwB.jpg https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/691736038212632626/691765504603324466/unknown.png

The official Guidebook also states esdeath freezes time and space.

 

[No_Might]

already adressing this notion of her freezing time and space

 

[Ragna777]

As I said, That scan is Esdeath stating her knowledge on Incursio.

Even if we assume there is any kind of temperature there to adapt to, which there isn't, how do you go about calculating freezing Time and Space?

Even with Incursio ability to adapt entirely to it's enviroment, plus it already being resist to cold temperatures it wasn't enough to properly resist it, and that's assuming there is anything there to adapt outside of Frozen "Time".

Either way you look at Mine's Pumpkin, it's not possible to lower the temperature of laser that at bare minimum is 4000k without it disappering entirely.

Sorry for being so behind. It been stressful with everything going on out here. Needed a breather.

So what your pretty much saying is that esdeath just let out some meaningless dialogue. That again brings me back to my point of why even bring it up in the first place if it has nothing to do with whats actually happening. She would of brought what he actually adapted to. You cant just try and invalidate evidence. It an explanation on why tatsumi is capable of doing what he's doing.

Yes there is a temperature or cold thats being adapt to,seeing as esdeath straight mentioned his ability to adapt to the cold. You cant calc it why because they are concepts. I have been saying this over and over again. Time and space conceptual thing, non-physical, they dont have freezing or burning point like physical objects. Within in the agk verse there has absolutly NO showing of the space time continuum or space time entities that could give showing on if the can be effect by cold or not. That being the case anyone say anything, she could of done with just sub-zero.

You cant compare tatsumi cold resistance with everyone else. We dont know the extent of it prior to this. Less you all want to start syaing somewhere in the agk vers theres an environment where space and time is frozen, which obviously cant be said cause thats headcannon. He did resist it properly we clearly see him move from his position to where esdeath is. Even if he didnt that just means his resistance wasnt strong enough. The more tatsumi evolves the stronger his adaptability and resistance becomes. So what may have got him the first go around may not work again, just like when she used it a third time toward the end and full dragon tatsumi was shown freely moving in it. Meaning his cold resistance is strong enough to go against her ability.

Again it cant disperse when since it can freely move, due to air being frozen to.

Case in point her ability is dealing out a cold thats can be resisted with cold resistance/immune. Tatsumi did no adapt to a literal time freeze cause that and assumption due to the fact his adaptability has never shown to being go to that extent. The manga has made cold resistance clear from bulat and esdeath statements.

You cant accept one thing the manga says "i froze time and space" and deny a another clear manga statment "incusio ability to adapt to the cold".

 

[Cyberblader90]

its stated to be a literal time freeze in the official guidebook for the manga.

 

[ViperVillian25]

Esdeath stating her knowledge on Incursio is part of the narrative, she saying that she heard that Incursio can resist cold temperatures and then after she states her surprise that it's attempt to adapt to her "Frozen Space", this because Time has been stopped and only Esdeath was capable of moving during Mahapadma previously.

Regardless of what you say Esdeath states that she froze Time and Space, the Author backs that claim and so to does the guide book.

The way the move works isn't based in reality, it doesn't work with physics and can only be explained by how it's described.

With time and space being the target of Esdeath's power she is freezing Time and thus indirectly freezing everyone in place.

Incursio's ability to adapt is reactionary to it's environment, with it already being stated to be resistant to cold temperatures, what Incursio adapts to is Mahapadma the move itself which Freezes "Time and Space".

 

[Ragna777]

Esdeath stating her knowledge on Incursio is part of the narrative, she saying that she heard that Incursio can resist cold temperatures and then after she states her surprise that it's attempt to adapt to her "Frozen Space", this because Time has been stopped and only Esdeath was capable of moving during Mahapadma previously.

Regardless of what you say Esdeath states that she froze Time and Space, the Author backs that claim and so to does the guide book.

The way the move works isn't based in reality, it doesn't work with physics and can only be explained by how it's described.

With time and space being the target of Esdeath's power she is freezing Time and thus indirectly freezing everyone in place.

Incursio's ability to adapt is reactionary to it's environment, with it already being stated to be resistant to cold temperatures, what Incursio adapts to is Mahapadma the move itself which Freezes "Time and Space".

Yea esdeath is stating her knowledge is part of the narrative as a means to explain the situation, its not just there for no reason. She said "tatsumi you...i heard incursio can become strong enough to adapt to the cold, for a moment it was able to move in my frozen space". She was only talking about his ability to adapt to the cold, not his ability to adapt to the cold and attempting to adapt to frozen space. Why are you changing her words. Again if cold has nothing to do it she would not have mentioned incursio adaptibilty to the cold in the first place. It would make no since for it to be for the sake of it like your implying. Unless you think cold resistance lets you counter time abilities, which is wrong. "He's attempting to adapt to my frozen space" is what she should say going with your logic. Did she though NO. She was solely connecting his adapt cold to the reason he was able to move.


I have said before im aware of what has been said. I know what esdeath said, what the post script between her and wave said, and what the databook said. But i also know adapt to the cold/ cold resistance was directly brought up as well by author and thats a fact regardless of you say. You make it out to seem like im trying to overule what the manga is saying when its the other way around. Your telling me "well this is what the manga and esdeath said" yet you try to discredit and twist what the MANGA and ESDEATH directly said. How is that remotely ok.

So since i gave valid arguments, like i was asked to do. you want to use the because its fiction card.

We dont know if tatsumi had cold resistance the first time she use it 1. Full dragon incursio is stated to have that ability. 2. We dont if tatsumi was strong yet with incursio to have cold resistance 3. Even if he did was we dont know if he was effected cause he was knocked out beforehand. 4.if he was that just means he didnt or his resistance in stage 1 wasnt strong enough.

All in all, on way or thy other. Cold resistance CAN counter it that was STATED directly in the manga by the creator as well.

 

[Ragna777]

its stated to be a literal time freeze in the official guidebook for the manga.

Adapting to the cold and cold resistance was literally stated in the manga which you know was made by the creator.

 

[Cyberblader90]

The databook was also written by the author. You have her original explantion how it works in the manga, post script from the author, and the databook written by the author. 3 to 1

 

[ViperVillian25]

I'm not twisting anything, you're the one zeroing in one statement and then making up your own headcannon, the whole argument that she is dropping the temperature to create cryostasis and that she is freezing the air to stop motion is never stated or acknowledge within the series. A series by the way has Esdeath fly with Ice and Seryu can pull objects bigger than own body out of her arms, the point being that freezing Time and Space as stated within the manga shouldn't be dismissed.

Once again it is stated by Esdeath, The Author and the guidebook that she is freezing "Time and Space" and those sources are far more believable then anything else.

And as I stated before that is a narritive, Esdeath only brought it up as a means to show her knowledge, she isn't comparing the cold temperature of the tundra to Mahapadma, because if that was the case Incursio would never have been affected in the first place because he's already resistant to cold temperatures: https://i.imgur.com/AXrYmeb.png But he clearly was affected since it did stop him.

lastly as I said Incursio's adaptation is reactive and what it is adapting to is Mahapadma, which means it's adapting to Frozen Space.

Also this is like my first real internet debate Ragna, I hope you're enjoying it as much as I am.

 

[Ragna777]

The databook was also written by the author. You have her original explantion how it works in the manga, post script from the author, and the databook written by the author. 3 to 1

3 to 1? I dont know what your thinking but this isnt majority rules. Its whatever the author and manga says that goes. I have said time and time again i know those where stated im not denying it, what im saying is along side those adapt to the cold/cold resistance was stated by author in his manga. Thats a fact just like the others. To try and deny would be hypocritical cause your telling people to accept what the manga and author said yet your trting to deny what the author and his manga said.

 

[ViperVillian25]

As per usual you're not getting it, we are not ignoring what Esdeath said.

However what Esdeath said is that she already knew of Incursio's ability to adapt to the cold, after which she stated "but in the span of an instant it was able to overcome my "Frozen Space."

If only cold resistance was enough first she won't have needed to say Frozen Space at all, nor would she have been surprised by it.

Second it has already been established that Mahapadma is not freezing people or surroundings, but Space and Time itself which requires a different form of resistance to resist.

Third as I stated Incursio's ability to adapt is reactionary and is attemping at that point to adapt to Mahapadma itself, which would be "Frozen Space."

With that being said I don't think anything we say at this point would be saved due to the ongoing move, so it's probably best if we wait until they have finished.