Removing 666:Satan's 52x Multiplier

[Maitreya12]

I was going to say that I agree with Oven's that the scaling becomes recursive, but, now that I look into it, I'm sort of confused as to our current High 4-C scaling all together.

Basically the feat of Daewi and Mori Hui is extremely close to baseline High 4C.

In fact Since Satan scales to the full result of the feat base Satan is only 1.024x away from being baseline high 4C (using the very lowest end for the feat). So phase 2 Satan would be at least baseline High 4C which is what I think should work.

 

[azontr]

Also, I think I remember our current one-shot values only being used for VS Thread purposes? So like, in a VS Match, a 52 times boost would be more than enough to one-shot, but we don't treat it that way in actual fiction.

Has that rule gone away? Was it ever there in the first place?

 

[DivineAura44]

I was going to say that I agree with Oven's that the scaling becomes recursive, but, now that I look into it, I'm sort of confused as to our current High 4-C scaling all together.

I don't see how. This only applies if you agree that Mori should have died by Satan's attacks, something that we have no proof of.

 

[azontr]

Yeah I'm deadass staring at the page for one-shots rn.

The 7.5× shit is only used for VS Threads.

 

[Nierre]

Following

Downgrade thread?? Bruh

Also nice pfp

 

[sunshine]

Following

Also nice pfp

LMAO ty bruh yours be goated aswell

 

[InfiniteDay]

Gonna have to disagree due to the reasons presented.

 

[azontr]

He has a Mujin pfp so he must be right.

 

[InfiniteDay]

He has a Mujin pfp so he must be right.

Glad there's a sensible one here

 

[Cropfist]

Was it considered that Satan was not using 100% of his power increase gap to obliterate Mori?

 

[Lugh_Tuathe_Dé]

I was going to say that I agree with Oven's that the scaling becomes recursive, but, now that I look into it, I'm sort of confused as to our current High 4-C scaling all together.

Average GOH scaling

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Satan very clearly multiplied his power by 52 times, so Mori was either just holding back against Base Satan or got stronger in that moment

I don't agree with nuking the multiplier, Jeabongchim is very clear about this stuff

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Just so we're clear. The current High 4-C Mori scales to 52x base Satan. You can all clearly see that on his page. It has been that way for years. I'm saying that's wrong because he was High 4-C when he fought base Satan and was clearly on even footing with him.

Regardless of one-shots or whatever if he was High 4-C he should not have been hurt by base Satan.

I would also like to stress that this rating is for the whole of Ragnarok. Which means he would have been High 4-C the moment he crossed the portal.

 

[Chariot190]

That do look a little sus tbh
I think I'm leaning towards agreeing
the multiplier looks fine tho

 

[Greatsage13th]

Let us not bring the 7.5x one shot gap up first. It is currently getting revised due to inaccuracies found with it.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

This isn't even about one-shots. It's literally about scaling. You can't scale to someone who is supposed to be 52x stronger than you because he fought you after you amped up 52x.

 

[PowerToScale]

While I agree that Mori is outclassed by 52x Satan, I disagree with him dropping down to 4C.

1) A casual base Satan was able to fight with Daewi, this same Satan then threw Jupiter which required 4C+ - High 4C levels of energy to push it back.

2) Mori when he fights a serious base Satan they progressively increase their strength as they fight. Mori at then end before Satan does a 52x is able to evenly fight with phase 2 Satan. Even assuming a Lowball of 2x increase. Phase 2 Satan would become High 4C. And IIRC being close to a tier such as having a + can grant you a tier jump with increases of power.

Essentially it will be

Mori
High 4-C (is able to fight and evenly match phase 2 Satan)

Satan:
4-C+ (Threw Jupiter which required daewi and Hui this much energy to push back), High 4-C in phase 2 (stronger than before)

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Having read through this, Ovens makes sense to me

 

[Maitreya12]

Regardless of one-shots or whatever if he was High 4-C he should not have been hurt by base Satan.

How much would this change the profiles though?

Satan would be High 4C in phase 2 and can amp his stats by 52x.

Mori would remain high 4C from fighting phase 2 Satan and then can be increased by 250,000x so the keys wouldn’t really change, besides maybe adding another key for phase 2 Satan.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

At least 4-C | At least 4-C, up to High 4-C with Jeahbongchim Acupuncture and when empowered by heat | At least High 4-C, 4-B with Jeahbongchim Acupuncture | 4-B, higher in Phase 2, Phase 3, and with Jeahbongchim Acupuncture | 4-A, higher with Jeahbongchim Acupuncture, Resurrection of Blood, or 12 Wings

The above is Satan's current stats.

At least 4-C | At least 4-C, up to higher with Jeahbongchim Acupuncture and when empowered by heat | At least 4-C, 4-B with Jeahbongchim Acupuncture | 4-B, higher in Phase 2, Phase 3, and with Jeahbongchim Acupuncture | 4-A, higher with Jeahbongchim Acupuncture, Resurrection of Blood, or 12 Wings

This is the adjusted stats if my revision goes through.

Let me remind you again that when empowered by heat, Satan can match Mori but that does not mean he is High 4-C if the whole tier itself is put into question.

 

[PowerToScale]

At least 4-C | At least 4-C, up to High 4-C with Jeahbongchim Acupuncture and when empowered by heat | At least High 4-C, 4-B with Jeahbongchim Acupuncture | 4-B, higher in Phase 2, Phase 3, and with Jeahbongchim Acupuncture | 4-A, higher with Jeahbongchim Acupuncture, Resurrection of Blood, or 12 Wings

The above is Satan's current stats.

At least 4-C | At least 4-C, up to higher with Jeahbongchim Acupuncture and when empowered by heat | At least 4-C, 4-B with Jeahbongchim Acupuncture | 4-B, higher in Phase 2, Phase 3, and with Jeahbongchim Acupuncture | 4-A, higher with Jeahbongchim Acupuncture, Resurrection of Blood, or 12 Wings

This is the adjusted stats if my revision goes through.

Thoughts on this suggestion

While I agree that Mori is outclassed by 52x Satan, I disagree with him dropping down to 4C.

1) A casual base Satan was able to fight with Daewi, this same Satan then threw Jupiter which required 4C+ - High 4C levels of energy to push it back.

2) Mori when he fights a serious base Satan they progressively increase their strength as they fight. Mori at then end before Satan does a 52x is able to evenly fight with phase 2 Satan. Even assuming a Lowball of 2x increase. Phase 2 Satan would become High 4C. And IIRC being close to a tier such as having a + can grant you a tier jump with increases of power

Essentially it will be

Mori
High 4-C (is able to fight and evenly match phase 2 Satan)

Satan:
4-C+ (Threw Jupiter which required daewi and Hui this much energy to push back), High 4-C in phase 2 (stronger than before)

with it it would be:

Base: At least 4-C

Phase 2: At least High 4-C, higher with Jeahbongchim Acupuncture and when empowered by heat

Phase 3: At least High 4-C, 4-B with Jeahbongchim Acupuncture

 

[Sir_Ovens]

1) Your own calc states that it took 4-C levels of energy to push Jupiter back. Your calc. That's why all Ragnarok Gods are 4-C.

2) The problem here is that the wiki guidelines prohibit the use of linear multipliers if they are contradicted in any way. This is true for every verse, which is why Dragon Ball's stated multipliers aren't used for scaling. I have presented a very clear cut contradiction in the form of someone fighting evenly with someone 52x their own base power. Also your use of multipliers with Mori's increasing strength is headcanon. You cannot pull numbers out of nowhere for scaling.

 

[Chariot190]

This is true for every verse, which is why Dragon Ball's stated multipliers aren't used for scaling

DB's stated multipliers are used tho. It's just speed isn't because big number go brrr.
That's not even a joke, DDM has a blog for it and DB's whole AP scaling is nothing but multipliers + up/downscaling.

 

[PowerToScale]

1) Your own calc states that it took 4-C levels of energy to push Jupiter back. Your calc. That's why all Ragnarok Gods are 4-C.

2) The problem here is that the wiki guidelines prohibit the use of linear multipliers if they are contradicted in any way. This is true for every verse, which is why Dragon Ball's stated multipliers aren't used for scaling. I have presented a very clear cut contradiction in the form of someone fighting evenly with someone 52x their own base power. Also your use of multipliers with Mori's increasing strength is headcanon. You cannot pull numbers out of nowhere for scaling.

1) My calc states that it would require 4-C+ to High 4-C levels depending on the timeframe. The wiki's accepted 4-C+ as the result, the 4-C is for the split value because it was done by Daewi and Hui, both of whom are far weaker than they were earlier when he fought Satan and when crippled Hui fought Zeus. It's Casual Base Satan => Daewi > fatigued and tired Daewi who performed the feat with the help of Hui. Satan performed the Jupiter throw which required the 4-C+ to push it back, and while still not going out in base.

2) You missed the point here, the 52x isn't a factor in this scaling here. I already said that I agreed with Mori not scaling to him. Its that Mori is able to contend with Satan(Phase 2) who is superior to the like of him self in base, who would scale to the casual 4-C+ value as noted above. The up scale to High 4-C for Satan(Phase 2) comes from the fact the difference between the 4-C+ is less than a two times multiplier and that in instances of characters being stronger than before, if the gap between tiers is really small, such as less than two times they can be moved up in tier as I've seen previously on the wiki.

It would be:
At least 4-C+ | At least High 4-C, higher with Jeahbongchim Acupuncture and when empowered by heat | At least High 4-C, 4-B with Jeahbongchim Acupuncture

Again the 52x is not part of this scale being proposed.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Power, the wiki accepted the lowest end which means the other ends don't matter. No matter how weak Daewi and Hui were when they performed the feat, it does not mean they tier jump when they aren't fatigued. That's just not how scaling works.

 

[PowerToScale]

Power, the wiki accepted the lowest end which means the other ends don't matter. No matter how weak Daewi and Hui were when they performed the feat, it does not mean they tier jump when aren't fatigued. That's just not how scaling works.

Yes, I know I the wiki accepted the lowest end, I acknowledged that. I only mentioned the others explaining the calc. The other ends don't have anything to do with what is being proposed. Daewi and Hui aren't jumping tiers It Satan(Phase 2) being upgraded to High 4-C via being stronger than himself in base who would be scaling to the 4-C+ which is less than 2x difference from baseline High 4-C.

 

[Maitreya12]

My dude….

The difference between the 4C+ calc (Base Satan’s level) and baseline high 4C is a difference if 1.024x. Satan went phase 2 which made him stronger, ergo he would be baseline High 4C in his phase 2 state.

And Mori would remain High 4C because he fought phase 2 Satan and not base Satan. He would not be downgraded to 4C because he never fought 4C base Satan.

What is the issue with the scaling here?

 

[Maitreya12]

Oh and there would also be zero need to nuke the 52x multiplier which is the case for your current keys.

It all around simply is better scaling here.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yes, I know I the wiki accepted the lowest end, I acknowledged that. I only mentioned the others explaining the calc. The other ends don't have anything to do with what is being proposed. Daewi and Hui aren't jumping tiers It Satan(Phase 2) being upgraded to High 4-C via being stronger than himself in base who would be scaling to the 4-C+ which is less than 2x difference from baseline High 4-C.

We don't do jumps in power like that. It would be wrong to assume that Mori would grow enough in power to breach into 4-C+ because that would be headcanon. There has to be a stated numerical increase in power in order to apply such jumps.

Oh and there would also be zero need to nuke the 52x multiplier which is the case for your current keys.

It all around simply is better scaling here.

Just because the multiplier would be in the same tier it does not mean it stops being a problem. A stomp gap is a stomp gap even within a tier. It does not change the fact that Satan harming Mori is blatant outlier because it is not physically possible for Mori to be harmed if he was 52x stronger than base Satan.

 

[Panache_x]

Would have to blatantly disagree with the OP and completely agree with @DivineAura44 reasoning

• The Multiplier was explicitly stated in the series
• There has been other showings of a 100x(or higher? Not really that knowledgeable on the verse) getting tanked and not one-shotting immediately
• Satan wasn't with the intent to Kill but simply mercilessly beat him (This is right, Right?)
• Wtf bruh, it's fiction, wtf is even this sort of downgrade. We're so glued to VSB Tiering we tend to make hilarious reasoning such as this downgrade

 

[Sir_Ovens]

There has been other showings of a 100x(or higher? Not really that knowledgeable on the verse) getting tanked and not one-shotting immediately

That's a terrible argument because then we would have to remove linear multipliers from the verse completely.

Wtf bruh, it's fiction, wtf is even this sort of downgrade. We're so glued to VSB Tiering we tend to make hilarious reasoning such as this downgrade

It's site standard. If you don't like it, change the standard or go to another wiki.

 

[Panache_x]

That's a terrible argument because then we would have to remove linear multipliers from the verse completely.

Well no, it's not
That's only there to elaborate on how the verse can apply Multipliers without it completely destroying the opponent. It doesn't make a Stated Multiplier to be discarded

It's site standard. If you don't like it, change the standard or go to another wiki.

I don't think there's anywhere on this site with the "A 52x Multiplier should be discarded because the amped didn't turn his opponent to dust even when he had no intention to"

 

[Maitreya12]

Ovens my guy, talk to me for a sec about this. Like really talk to me about this because I can’t follow your reasoning here.

listen for one the site standard is only for vs threads.

It literally has nothing to do with profiles it is strictly for vs threads purposes so why are you bringing it to their profiles

Second off, dude that standard is being revised as we speak. The revise thread is literally talking about how that standard should be increased to upwards of 400x. So again why are you trying to use this standard for their profiles?

As for the 4C+ thing. I genuinely don’t understand what you’re saying. Here are the basic facts for the scaling presented.

-Base Satan already scales to the full end of 4C+ feat. His power already scales to that as per the feat.

-The difference between that value and baseline high 4C is a difference of 1.024x

-Satan fought Mori in phase 2 and not his base which is an amp.

-Phase 2 Satan and Mori are high 4C

What is the issue with this scaling? Why can it not be applied to Mori if he’s fighting a Satan that scales above the Satan that is 4C+? I really don’t get why the phase 2 amp and how close these values are, is being dismissed here.

 

[PowerToScale]

We don't do jumps in power like that. It would be wrong to assume that Mori would grow enough in power to breach into 4-C+ because that would be headcanon. There has to be a stated numerical increase in power in order to apply such jumps.

Not true. It states on the powerscaling page that in notes that being superior to another close to the tier can be upscaled. Base Satan is 4-C+ and when fighting Mori he gets punched twice and automatically resorts to Phase 2, Mori then tells him to stop playing around as he was fighting his clone and proceeds to destroy them. He then fights the real Satan in phase 2 and is shown that they're relative if not Satan having a slight upper hand. Its clear that the difference between Satan(base) << Satan(Phase 2).

Furthermore there was a discussion regarding upscaling tiers because of small gaps which the general idea that upscaling to a tier above is fine if the gap is small and there is shown a difference in strength, which is shown in the chapter and explained above. Not only that this general upscaling rule is used constantly as seen with this screenshot here. The results from that discussion are listed here with upscaling is okay as long as the difference is small, with it ranging from 1.1x to 1.5. In this case the difference is 1.024x which falls below even the lowest value of 1.1x.

So to say its not wiki standard and not used is wrong.

@DemonGodMitchAubin I would also like your opinion considering you were part of the upscaling discussion (please read previous messages for the upscaling scale)

Just because the multiplier would be in the same tier it does not mean it stops being a problem. A stomp gap is a stomp gap even within a tier. It does not change the fact that Satan harming Mori is blatant outlier because it is not physically possible for Mori to be harmed if he was 52x stronger than base Satan.

Its not about it being in the same tier or any of that. I don't understand why you keep jumping to the conclusion of Mori being 52x stronger than base Satan when that's not what's happening. First, Satan does stomp and shows stomping Mori when he goes 52x, that's a fact. Not once is Mori in this scale 52x stronger than base Satan. The scale is literally

Base Satan (4-C+) <1.024x< Mori ~ Satan Phase 2 (High 4-C) <<52x<< Satan Phase 2 with acupuncture or heat empowerment

Not only is this scale is consistent when comes to powerscalng and upscaling rules, it also consistent with feats and showings in the series. It also keeps the the multiplier consistent too.

 

[PrinceofPein]

If multipliers were shown to be extremely inconsistent, then why do the verse have them?
Just use the ones that are consistent and remove the ones that are not like any verse should do

 

[Sus]

I disagree for maitreya's reasons

 

[sunshine]

I disagree for a lot of reasons but for Maitreya's and PowerToScale's the most

 

[Wagy]

Yeah disaggreing with this one, Power to Scale seems to make the most sense, get Satan that juicy High 4C for phase two.

 

[sunshine]

Also, I am highly certain that this all was PIS on GoH's part.

 

[azontr]

Can someone summarize what's going on right now? I was asleep.