Reinhard Heydrich 1-A Key Weakness Addition

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Really? Even though many have disagreed and there is no clear conclusion to the debate?

Do you really believe that Reinhard, who has a Taikyouku of 90, is so powerful he cannot harm others at full-strength without harming himself, when neither Ren or Mercurius suffer from this problem, and neither does Reinhard when facing Ren either?

Please, it's so blatantly obvious that this is a result of him attacking his own Apoptosis. Your entire argument relies on not reading between the lines and looking at the wider context, hell even looking at the other routes or the rest of the Masadaverse, and going by what the quotes say literally.

His body cannot withstand his own power because he is dependant on Mercurius, when that becomes affected so does Reinhard. Again, you seen to ignore the quote directly afterwards, "It was far simpler than that". It's almost like the story is telling you not to hold that interpretation, yet that is what you are admantly clinging too.

Also worth telling is that both EvilMegaCookie and Trexalfa have spoken in complete disagreement of this in other threads. And they are along ALRF the most reliable Masada fans here, who've read the original Japanese works. So their opinions matter more than those of the people supporting you;

 

[ALRF]

I do still stand by what i said.

The reason why he's huring himself is like, me and Matt have being repeating, is due to him harming Mercurius itself. The scans even alludes to this many times with the "foreknowledge" "known world", ect.

This is even shown in KKK when Reinhard literally was harming himself due to him eating away Mercurius effectively weakening slowly killing himself

It's also weird to say Reinhard body mind and body can't withstand that, when fellow gods Ren and Mercurius can do just fine.

Or how about Ren in KKK, who's literally infinitely stronger than Reinhard by a ridiculous degree, didn't even get harmed by his own boosted power after the sacrifice? Despite this newfound power being way above his general one?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Considering their arguments consist of proving "reason A" is a thing when the story states that both A and B are reasons? I don't think their arguments are relevant. Yes it's option A, but they haven't disproved it also being option B

Considering the story itself states it? Yes. I'll believe that.

He is the apoptosis actually. And as the stroy states, it both. Also, I find it funny how you of all people argue that I'm not reading between the lines, when you have so adamantly stated in other threads the importance of clear statements in regards to higher tier powers and refused to "read between the lines" elsewhere.

And you seem to ignore the quote about it being "not only"

Then perhaps they should comment here, preferably with better arguments than what have been presented.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

And I agree with you ALRF. He's hurting himself because he is hurting Merc. You and the scans have made that quite clear. But that isn't the only reason.

Reinhard's always been a special snowflake. I don't see why we try to use the "no one else is like him" argument only when it benefits him.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You have not responded to the fact that not other character including stronger gods suffer this problem and neither does Reinhard in any other battle. You are just turning your eyes away from the counter evidence.

The story states repeatedly that this is because he is Mercurius' apoptosis. And legit, when have I done that? Clear feats are important, but I refuse nonsense things like "1-A because non-euclidian geometry" that occasionally gets brought up.

The explanation here is clearly stated. The wider context clarifies it and debunks it being Reinhard's own power. The wider setting makes that proposition ludicrous as well.

 

[ALRF]

Because he's special than other Dies Irae characters?

Because his Briah is already on the Atziluth rank?

Because his Briah directly exists outside of the Throne domain and Mercurius law?

Because his spear/his whole existence is nothing but a manifestation of the Snake desire to die?

I could go on more why "no one else is like him" in Dies Irae

But we didn't even use the special snowflake thing you just stated now for some reason?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

And I agree with you ALRF. He's hurting himself because he is hurting Merc. You and the scans have made that quite clear. But that isn't the only reason.
Reinhard's always been a special snowflake. I don't see why we try to use the "no one else is like him" argument only when it benefits him.

Because it makes no logical sense, and doesn't mesh well with the wider narrative. Considering that this "No one else" thing applies to Reinhard himself when fighting people other than Mercurius?

You are so adamantly focused on the "Not only", which really doesn't prove anything. There are many more ways to interpret that line than simply "Reinhard is so strong he harms himself". That only happens because he is fighting Mercurius.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

"no other character including stronger gods suffer this problem". This is what I mean with my special snowflake statement. Whenever Reinhard does something that no one else can do, it's because "he's Reinhard". But now, when he has a weakness that no one else has, "he's Reinhard" is no longer an acceptable reason? That's a double standard. As for other gods. They are just... not glass cannons. It's not hard. And Reinhard isn't using his full power in any other fight, except the Marie's route one where the fight ends in a single move.

And it also states this is a second reason, not the only reason.

The two explanations are stated. "not only" proves there is more than just one explanation. I don't see how I'm focusing too much on it.

 

[ALRF]

This is also no different from the other "out of context" scans you gave us to disapprove Apoptosis aren't immortals.

To remind you, you said Shirou should have resurrected in Kasumi route after his death right? Well no, because he's soul was dragged to Valhalla.

Rea route? Same thing, the guy literally died on the rooftop of their school which had a swastika, effectively sucking his soul out.

Interpretation is a big part of Masada due to how the guy works and to make the correct one, readers shouldn't jump in the gun until they read everything correctly.

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As an Apoptosis, Reinhard will unconsciously do anything to destroy Mercurius. Because that's his very being, his very own existence, it's what personnifies him and makes him what he is, the cancer of NEET.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Do you realize that the line about him harming his own body by harming Mercurius has a lot more to do with their symbiotic, unified relationship as one organism dependant on another than Reinhard literally harming himself? His body can't take his power because by attacking Mercurius he attacks himself.

And no, this doesn't make Reinhard a Glass Cannon either. He can take attacks from Ren just fine and Mercurius (Who are 100% equally strong) and they don't harm themselves.

 

[ALRF]

> And Reinhard isn't using his full power in any other fight, except the Marie's route one where the fight ends in a single move.

No? Reinhard saw each Ren and Mercurius as equals to him. He no longer saw Ren as relative to Mercurius but as someone who has his own soul, his own personality

The second paragraph of the excerpt i gave also mention how Apoptosis go full out against their creator

Rindou Koga, out of her nature, literally tries to "kill" Habaki (He obviously survived but you get my point)

 

[Extreme123dz]

Hey, im the other one who says that harming Mercurius = harmin himself (Reinhard)... e.e

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

When did I state that about Shirou? I didn't state he should have resurrected. I stated he didn't. Just like Reinhard didn't, even when there wasn't a swastika. Showing that he doesn't just survive everything because of being an Apoptosis. Regardless, that's not what is being argued here.

How is doing it unconsciously relevant here? In this fight, he's doing it pretty consciously.

I... don't see how that is a reply. How is seeing them as equals relevant to me saying he didn't use his full power in any other fight except the Rea Route endings?

@Matt, except the line is not that he is only harming his own body by harming merc. It is that he is harming is own body because not only can his body not take his power, he's also harming his source.

Glass cannon in the sense that his AP is higher than his dura so he gets hit by the force of his own attacks. It's pretty clearly not that much damage. Not that he gets one-shot by anyone with comparable power.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Monarch

Wow you are still fixated on the exact phrasing and forsaking all further interpretation and context? Is that single line your only argument?

 

[VoidGoji]

Reinhard was at full power in Rea Route ending against Merc. Also, one of your scans is basically showing how Masada uses flowery language to describe how Reinhard's joy is literally "consuming" his very existence because he finally could fight with 100% and not that his powers are harming himself.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'd also like to point out that suggesting that your own desire can turn against you and harm yourself is a ludicrous, laughable notion that goes against core mechanics of the series. You have full control of your desire in Atziluth.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I'd also like to point out that suggesting that your own desire can turn against you and harm yourself is a ludicrous, laughable notion that goes against core mechanics of the series. You have full control of your desire in Atziluth.

Falling under the weight of your own desires isn't an uncommon theme in the Shinza series, the same thing would have occurred in KKK with Soujirou , if it wasn't for Shiori acting as the sheath to the brilliance of his blade.

K Matt.

@Monarch

Wow you are still fixated on the exact phrasing and forsaking all further interpretation and context? Is that single line your only argument?

Because nothing further actually disproves that phrasing? Proving one reason does not disprove the other.

Reinhard was at full power in Rea Route ending against Merc. Also, one of your scans is basically showing how Masada uses flowery language to describe how Reinhard's joy is literally "consuming" his very existence because he finally could fight with 100% and not that his powers are harming himself.

Must be really flowery language then, because that is not at all how it came across to me. Seemed pretty clear that him hurting himself and feeling great at using his full power were different things.

 

[ALRF]

That "falling under your own desire" is different from "harming yourself because of your desire"

So not the same thing

 

[ALRF]

And heck that doesn't include Reinhard as he was shown struggling at all in controlling his urges/craving or something like that

 

[Extreme123dz]

This remember my when (iirc) Merc says to shirou about Apoptosis thing and how Shirou destroy Ren normal Life directly and indirectly, consciously and unconsciously.

Also, its true that, in Marie Route, Ren and Reinhard have a Taikyoku value of 80 no?

Still i thing that, Reinhard harming himself its about the whole Apoptosis thing of Merc and his reliant inmortality to him, No Merc = No Rein.

 

[ALRF]

>Also, its true that, in Marie Route, Ren and Reinhard have a Taikyoku value of 80 no?

Yes. They had a Taiji value of 80 in Marie

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

And Reinhard didn't harm himself in Marie's route~

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Reinhard wasn't at full power in Marie's route. As said right above you. He had 80 Taiji, not 90.

 

[EvilMegaCookie]

Problem: This literally doesn't work because why would Reinhard specifically be unable to endure going Atziluth? We don't see Ren or Mercurius crumbling under the release of their power in Rea's route. Nor do we see him do it while going Atziluth against Ren.

It also doesn't make much sense, to begin with. Hell, it literally says that there is a far simpler reason for why he was collapsing. That an Apoptosis cannot outlive their host. And the moment the host dies so do they.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Reinhard wasn't at full power in Marie's route. As said right above you. He had 80 Taiji, not 90.

>Point

>Your head.

80 or 90, he was using the full power he had available and didn't harm himself when fighting Ren.

Ren obtains infinitely more power than what he previously had in KKK and doesn't harm himself either.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@Matt

>Point

>Your head

Full power he had available doesn't mean enough actual full power, nor does it mean power to damage him using it.

So... Reinhard's unique. Why is that difficult to grasp.


@EMC why? Who knows. Maybe because Masada wanted another way of showing how powerful he was and Merc had already stolen the "throw all the stars in the universe at them" option. But Reinhard hurting himself for two reasons are what the VN states.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Monarch

Dude, this argument no logical sense. It matters not if he got stronger lately, you cannot act like he won't be able to harm himself at 80 Taikyouku but will at 90 when that increases all of his stats equally.

This "Reinhard is unique" argument proves absolutely nothing. You are just dodging all the arguments with it.

 

[ALRF]

Why Hajun body (which actually never got harmed due to his whole Taikyoku shit) doesn't get damaged just from the power he has? His soul constantly expanding and swelling, increasing in strength...yet his body is perfectly fine ?

And honestly, "its Reinhard" argument is always a joke. Show me one thing we approve for Reinhard just because "its Reinhard"

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

It does matter though? Reinhard's full capacity is, as the apoptosis of merc, 90. When he's at 80, he's not got so much power that he hurts himself using it.

Neither do your arguments. And you are all dodging mine. You're the only one so far to even acknowledge my argument of it being both instead of just trying to prove it is because he's the apoptosis, and your counter argument has essentially been "never mentioned anywhere else, can't believe you're still focusing on it"

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Everyone's responded to your argument. Pointing that it doesn't mesh well with the entire rest of the setting is just being sensible, and not focusing exclusively on one line of one scene in one route of one game.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I'm agree with most ALFYN and Mashu said.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@ALRF that doesn't prove it doesn't hurt Reinhard though.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You haven't succesfully proven he hurts himself either. That's just your interpretation which does not sustain itself under any scrutiny.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

i mean...monarch...the thing is reinhard's peak in marie was 80 but he had never even broke once hell he was 100% fine. Its 100% strange to think at 90 he would be breaking apart all over the sudden when everyone was fine at that level. We showed the reason he broke was that he was KMSing by killing merc so he was dying along side his best friend. It was even stated the cancer cell can't oulive its host and this metaphor is true to reinhard being merc's cancer cell

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

You haven't succesfully proven he hurts himself either. That's just your interpretation which does not sustain itself under any scrutiny.

My interpretation of a quote that clearly states that Reinhard being unable to take his own prowess is one of the reasons he's hurting himself doesn't sustain itself?

@Redgrave that has been brought up before. Reinhard hurting himself by hurting merc =/= Reinhard not hurting himself because his body can't take it

 

[ALRF]

Time to bring Masada's personal weapon in to the battlefield

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

...

I submit?

Reminds me of this one photo I saw of children pulling the head off a snowman, then needing to be told they were actually putting the head on. Really says something about my mind.

 

[Kepekley23]

Taking all the given quotes into account, ALRF and the others seem to make more sense.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

~Sigh~

Screw it, I give up. Let's all just ignore the quote saying there's two reasons and pretend there's only one.

I'm so tired of this argument.

 

[Kepekley23]

I apologize for reopening this, but that's a very condescending concession coming from you. People disagreeing isn't the end of the world.