Reinhard and Satella Ability Removals

[Heinkel_Astrea]

For base Reinhard. Reinhard's feats with his weapon drawn is plain stronger.

Can I also get the full quote for how Satella's miasma affected him, so that I can examine the situation and context?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Arc 6 chapter 9

[Anastasia: About these sand dunes and the sandy plain between the watchtower, the space is distorted.]

[Subaru: The space is distorted……?]

[Anastasia: In other words, the land isn't connected, unlike what you see. If we continue walking with it being like this, weeell, we proooobably wouldn't reach it, no matter how long we walked.]

Anastasia nonchalantly clarifies the truth of the impact, and Subaru could not close his mouth. The Anastasia who was equivalent to Eridna should've known it from the beginning, considering how it sounded as if that matter was being told from Eridna.

[Subaru: So I guess that's why Reinhard and all the other challengers couldn't reach it.]

For some reason, he thinks of the adventurers' regret from breaking down halfway after having their goal in front of them.
It was the obstacle that obstructed the people that aimed for the watchtower, and the obstacle that even Reinhard gave up on. The distorted space and the end of the sand sea that actually couldn't be reached――perhaps those were the tricks.

[Subaru: How do you defeat that?]

[Anastasia: ……Aren't you kinda missing the point by asking about defeating and not defeating it? This is a trap of nature created by the miasma. There's nooo type of unnatural power going on here.]

[Subaru: A trap of nature!? This!?]

It was an extremely rare set up trap, which had a nature that he felt didn't have anything but an intent to kill with how it was.
The frequently seen mirages at deserts, and the snow covered roads that continued on the cliffs of heavy snow areas. Thinking about it generally, humans could get killed by things like bottomless swamps and being pulled in by rising tides.
However, as you'd expect, this watchtower was――

[Subaru: This is a trap made by nature? That's an exaggeration, isn't it?]

[Julius: Well, the Pleiades watchtower was built at a place where the phenomenon happens. If you think about it that way, it's not unnatural. Also, it makes sense.]

[Subaru: It makes sense? In what way?]

[Julius: You cannot forget. Yes the sand dunes lead to the watchtower, but you can't forget that the thing is not just a tower that is ahead of the sand dunes. Why do you think the watchtower is there in the first place?]

Julius chides Subaru, as he was talking in a rude tone, and he urges him to think. He immediately had an answer come to mind for his question. The watchtower they were aiming for was a seal of the "Witches' Shrine".
And assuming that the sand dunes' unsurpassed trap was the witch cult's deterrence to revive the "Witch of Jealousy", it was probably extremely effective.
He wouldn't stubbornly put the blame on that.

[Subaru: …….! Fine. Anyway, forget the details about why that tower was built there. I'm concerned about something else. It's how we're going to break through that distorted space.]

[Anastasia: You do know that we can't remove the source of it, right? This is the type of soil we're on.]

Anastasia smiles wryly at Subaru, who continued to pressure her, and she showed a pompous sort of attitude. After that, she nods at Subaru and Julius, who gazed at her, and she said it.

[Anastasia: During that "Sand Time", there should be a moment when the space connected to the watchtower collapses. We'll go through there, and we'll enter the real sand sea. That's the condition of breaking through, you see.]

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

That's the Sage's tower. It's... built to keep Satella in. So it's something that can keep Reinhard out as well. It's a stronger construct than either of them.

Take note that even Reid could not contain Satella. The tower is stronger than that.


Julius also mentions the tower's purpose.

[Julius: You cannot forget. Yes the sand dunes lead to the watchtower, but you can't forget that the thing is not just a tower that is ahead of the sand dunes. Why do you think the watchtower is there in the first place?]




It's been put there to prevent the end of the world by Flugel.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

You would think though that reinhard being the strongest character and has resistance to basically everything he has come upon so far, nothing would affect him, including this built by flugel using satella's miasma. And there is still that what if tappei wrote where wilhelm was erased from existence by the whale and reinhard didn't remember him, and the fact he resets as well when time is reset, though you might argue subaru's ability isn't a reset but just his consciouness going to another parallel world.

Whatever the case i think we should wait until he shows the resistances and not assume anything.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

I'm just pointing out that that is not Satella's miasma, is more powerful than Satella, and was meant to achieve an objective that Flugel/Volcanica/Reid put together could not do so. The three of them would not have lasted a year against her. That thing did it for 400 years.

No problem, I'm just saying that Reinhard being vulnerable to Witch magic is not what the author intended. Regulus' Witch magic already doesn't work at all to him in Arc 5, who (Regulus) is confirmed to be stronger than all the other 6 Witches. Even if there is an argument that Reinhard supposedly kills the Witches because he is stronger and faster, the fact does not change that their magic is weaker than Regulus'. Therefore, they won't work if Regulus' does not.

When I was working on Reinhard's profile, we referred to the individual abilities of the Witches to attribute resistance, not have Satella have all the Witches' abilities and then scale Reinhard's resistance to her. That's not how we did. We scaled Reinhard to Regulus and the weaker Witches individually. If Reinhard is immune to Regulus, then he is immune to the weaker Witches.

Yes, Reinhard is the strongest singular character, but towers like that have the contribution of three people and their combined prep effort. Either Reid himself or Reid's avatar is living in the tower right now too.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Looking back at the dialogue i disargee with flugel being the one responsibly for the warping of space

[Anastasia: ……Aren't you kinda missing the point by asking about defeating and not defeating it? This is a trap of nature created by the miasma. There's nooo type of unnatural power going on here.]

[Subaru: A trap of nature!? This!?]

It was an extremely rare set up trap, which had a nature that he felt didn't have anything but an intent to kill with how it was.
The frequently seen mirages at deserts, and the snow covered roads that continued on the cliffs of heavy snow areas. Thinking about it generally, humans could get killed by things like bottomless swamps and being pulled in by rising tides.
However, as you'd expect, this watchtower was――

[Subaru: This is a trap made by nature? That's an exaggeration, isn't it?]

[Julius: Well, the Pleiades watchtower was built at a place where the phenomenon happens. If you think about it that way, it's not unnatural. Also, it makes sense.]

It's not that flugel set up some mechanisms to keep ppl away from satella, he just built the tower around the area satella was sealed, and satella is so op that even after 400 years, her miasma from before is still there doing crazy stuff like warping space, and driving ppl to madness.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

And that sorta proves that Flugel was resistant to the said miasma to be able to construct that thing there, when we take its effect to Subaru's group at face value.

If the region's space was being distorted before the tower was constructed that people can't enter, then they could not have built the tower in that particular place.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Pretty much, flugel is said to smell like the witch or have her miasma or something like that so him being resistant doesn't surprise me.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

I mean it's hard to approach a construction site surrounded by fire if you are not resistant to fire. He even entered the tower after it was constructed.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

So what does that tell about the others who are also inside the tower?

And Volcania and Reid should have been resistant to be able to help Flugel, no? And put down Satella despite the effect of miasma?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Agreed, he also has in that tower practically the memories of everyone who has ever lived, at least since 400 years ago, he definetly has hax.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

So why should he be the only one immune to Satella among the three who were directly involved in the same fight?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The dragon and reid should also have resistance to her miasma yes, lets not get into timestop again though.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Eh, but then we are back full circle to the argument that Reinhard is also resistant to Satella's miasma, and that Reinhard is resistant to all other weaker magic except maybe her own authority. Let me reiterate what I wrote awhile ago.


I'm just saying that Reinhard being vulnerable to Witch magic is not what the author intended. Regulus' Witch magic already doesn't work at all to him in Arc 5, who (Regulus) is confirmed to be stronger than all the other 6 Witches. Even if there is an argument that Reinhard supposedly kills the Witches because he is stronger and faster, the fact does not change that their magic is weaker than Regulus'. Therefore, they won't work if Regulus' does not.

When I was working on Reinhard's profile, we referred to the individual abilities of the Witches to attribute resistance, not have Satella have all the Witches' abilities and the scale Reinhard's resistance to her. That's not how we did. We scaled Reinhard to Regulus and the weaker Witches individually. If Reinhard is immune to Regulus, then he is immune to the weaker Witches.

This also has relevance to how Regulus, the Archbishop of Greed, and Beatrice, the daughter of Greed, can stop the time of other people and objects.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

He clearly isn't immune if he can be affected by her miasma since unlike flugel he couldn't make it through the sand dune.

And we don't know how regulus vs reinhard went, from what i saw through google translate reinhard kept dodging regulus's attack and didn't take any head on, when he did take one head on he got one shotted although regulus told him to take it unguarded.

And why would we scale reinhard to the other witches? That's ridiculous they have never met reinhard, they are long dead. And being immune to regulus wouldn't mean he is immune to the other witches, and why are you using witches regulus is an archbishop not a witch. Just because regulus is stronger than them doesn't automatically give reinhard resistance.

And beatrice at best can probably only stop time for like a second, she has never used it in story and it seems like something that would take a lot of mana for her to do.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

He clearly isn't immune if he can be affected by her miasma since unlike flugel he couldn't make it through the sand dune.

This is contradictory to Volcanica and Reid's resistance.

Additional reminder: Base Reinhard does not scale to Volcanica and Reid Reid.


So, you are saying, even in the future when Satella is confirmed to have Time Stop, Reinhard won't scale to her because they never met each other?


Sighs, I know. If we just phone-called Tappei and asked whether the 6 Witches' Authorities can even harm Reinhard, he would find the notion ridiculous. If he was a manwha author I would probably have done so already.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Reinhard isn't the sages, just cause they have resistances doesn't mean he does especially when the story makes it point to say he couldn't get through the sand dunes.

And you are assuming reinhard gets resistance to miasma with reid, i don't remember anything about reid granting resistances, this would mean everyone with reid, even fodder like thereseia would have resistance to satella's miasma, don't know how to feel about that.

Satella is already confirmed to have timestop, the WN literally says time stops everytime subaru tries to say anything about rbd, satella's timestop might not be combat applicable though.

I am just saying there are too many unknowns here and we should wait for confirmations and not jump to conclusions.

 

[ZERO7772]

Chill heinkel

I and pegasus have the same opinion as you , pretty sure 90% of re:zero powres doesn't work on him but we lack the proof long story shore

Hr will gdt most of these back with time

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Yes, the Reid Sword makes Reinhard far more powerful; it's what allows him to even fight Volcanica in the first place.

If Reid has resistance to miasma that allows him to fight Satella, then Reinhard should also have it to even fight her. How would Reinhard fight her as Tappei says he can with Reid Sword if he will be put down by the miasma?

The logical explanation is that the miasma can't.

Well Satella already used time authority to pachunko Minerva. That's not my question though; my question is, even if we know in the future how the Time Stop works from her previous fights, it won't scale to Reinhard because they never met each other?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Reid grants him power but we don't know if it grants him resistance, we have no proof.

Maybe reid is just naturally resistant to the miasma. Who knows how reinhard would take out satella, and you know that just fighting satella doesn't mean you have resistance to the miasma right? Satella showed up in arc 4 and nobody was going insane and all that other stuff due to miasma, but you could argue it was cause she was possessing emilia and not at full power.

We don't even know what the hell pachunko minerva means. Your still not getting what i am saying we know little to nothing about satella or the 3 sages, we need more information, we don't know how reinhard vs satella would play out and what abilties she would use, we know nothing.

And as i already said i do think reinhard is 99% resistance to almost everything in the series, but i can't prove it, we need proof before we do anything, not assumptions on top of assumptions.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

In that case we should then just use Reid rather than Reinhard in VS. He has more immunity to Satella.

I actually think Reid's case to be resistant to insanity and spatial distortion induced by Satella is in fact stronger than Flugel's.

You asked me a few times why I never made Re:Zero VS in the past one year since joining despite having found and calculated all or most of their feats. It's because I dislike author's intent being challenged this way. I already know Tappei will immediately answer 'no', without any hesitation, if we asked him whether the six Witches' magic would work on Reinhard's Divine Protection of Magic Resistance (ÚÇÇÚ¡öÒü«ÕèáÞ¡À), even if they never met each other. Several weaker characters are already effectively resistant to Satella. But the process to get to just those two letters is stupidly bothersome. So I haven't.

Do what you want now. I don't really use a Sword Saint for VS except by using composite Reinhard anyway.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Reid doesn't have precog that lets him dodge everything. Reinhard also has mind control resistance cause sirius's authority which can control people doesn't work on him but yea the miasma does come with mind, space and soul effects so can't beat that.

Why would think reid's resistance would be stronger than flugel?

Well there is such a thing as death of the author, authors aren't always right, which is why we have to take everything on a case by case basis and back things up with proof in the story.

Why would you need a composite reinhard anyway he is still hax.

 

[Heinkel_Astrea]

Because the swordsman Reid actually fought Satella at her epicenter to buy time, while Flugel just built the tower in the miasma region. Also it's already Reid's own FTL deflecting that Reinhard scales from.

Well I don't know, 'Reinhard >= Reid and both can fight Satella' is a pretty straightforward statement.


Composite Reinhard just means that his Reid version gets all the feats of his two scaled ancestors.

There were quite a lot of people who found it reasonable (the two internally consistent arguments were that, not only is he stronger to fight the same opponent (Satella, Shaula), but he can also ask for the same blessings and resistances as his ancestors), because, eh, he by himself actually has little feats due to always one-shotting with Reid. So we just use the composite version.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Well flugel and the dragon still came at the end to seal satella though, guess reid was exposed longer but don't think there is that big a difference.

I see, this topic is mostly done, should probably close this.

 

[Antvasima]

Feel free to do so, if you wish.