Regarding Tier 4 in NNT (Potential downgrade)

[Bossbrosish]

So, as I'm reading through NNT, I started to realize something about Tier 4 and the accepted cals and realized it doesn't really work for reasons I'll show. (I've brought it up before in the discussion thread, so I'll just post what I said there to here)

So I actually went back to check the feat for the Demon King and noticed something about the "starry sky" and the whole feat in general. It's just Zeldris explaining about the Behemoth and the claimed starry sky is just drawn stars and not like little dots. We're using a descriptive scene/imagery of something as an actual feat for the calc. The Behemoth shown is even completely different from the actual one, further emphasizing that's it's imagery.

The demon realm is also never shown with stars, but rather covered by clouds but does apparently contain two moons.

Now, regarding the King Arthur calc that was accepted by a calc member but never actually applied. Why are we using a cover image for a feat when these cover images are clearly used for illustrative purposes and have nothing to do with the story? Also regarding this in the calc, it's not saying there are starry skies in Camelot specifically, but places where you can see boundless stars in the sky (also, the answer is very vague and the doesn't even mention Camelot and I'm not even sure if the translation is accurate at all based on the wording in English), however this calc is still slightly valid because of the Cauldron of Annwfyn, which takes place inside of Camelot.

I do want to point out, however, that NNT does not have a Verse-specific Powers and Abilities/universal energy system page regarding the use of magic in the series and whether or not creation would scale to physicals (as per the rules and this). We'd also have to prove the stars/moons are legit.

As I such, I suggest characters get downgraded to these two 5-A calcs (Though, one of the calcs seems to have some problem with it now regarding density) and until a specific powers and Abilities/Universal Energy System page is created regarding magic in the series, anything regarding 4-B goes back to being via creation like in the old profiles.

Agree: 0

Disagree: 0

Neutral: 0

 

[Bossbrosish]

Images aren't working for some reason (the load when I refresh the page) so I'll go and fix them.

Edit: Fixed them all

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree.

 

[Makai641001]

So, as I'm reading through NNT, I started to realize something about Tier 4 and the accepted cals and realized it doesn't really work for reasons I'll show. (I've brought it up before in the discussion thread, so I'll just post what I said there to here)

So I actually went back to check the feat for the Demon King and noticed something about the "starry sky" and the whole feat in general. It's just Zeldris explaining about the Behemoth and the claimed starry sky is just drawn stars and not like little dots. We're using a descriptive scene/imagery of something as an actual feat for the calc. The Behemoth shown is even completely different from the actual one, further emphasizing that's it's imagery.

Said imagery is a representation of the Demon world and it being a « sketch » does not change the fact that the author took time to draw said stars.

The demon realm is also never shown with stars, but rather covered by clouds but does apparently contain two moons.

It is shown with stars in the exact drawing you showed

Now, regarding the King Arthur calc that was accepted by a calc member but never actually applied. Why are we using a cover image for a feat when these cover images are clearly used for illustrative purposes and have nothing to do with the story?

You cherry picked a cover image that include 0 canon element and compared it with a representation of Gawain in a canon setting…

Also regarding this in the calc, it's not saying there are starry skies in Camelot specifically, but places where you can see boundless stars in the sky (also, the answer is very vague and the doesn't even mention Camelot and I'm not even sure if the translation is accurate at all based on the wording in English),

Wdym ?
The question is directly involving Camelot, and the answer is straightforward.

however this calc is still slightly valid because of the Cauldron of Annwfyn, which takes place inside of Camelot.

It’s not « slightly valid » you just conceded Anfwynn holds a starry sky and showed multiple evidence about it being the case lol

I do want to point out, however, that NNT does not have a Verse-specific Powers and Abilities/universal energy system page regarding the use of magic in the series and whether or not creation would scale to physicals (as per the rules and this)

UES was accepted already

. We'd also have to prove the stars/moons are legit.

The burden is on you to prove it’s not, it looks like starry skies and is stated to be starry skies by the author himself.

As I such, I suggest characters get downgraded to these two 5-A calcs (Though, one of the calcs seems to have some problem with it now regarding density) and until a specific powers and Abilities/Universal Energy System page is created regarding magic in the series, anything regarding 4-B goes back to being via creation like in the old profiles.

An UES page is not required it was accepted and admins told us we could make the change

agree.

It’s crazy to agree with what is probably the most horrendous thread of 2026 which features the refutation of it’s « argument »

And above everything else it’s crazy to agree without even waiting for anyone to answer

OP didn’t even know UES was accepted and conceded that the 4-A calc was valid…

 

[Mbpoops]

Interesting. Following

 

[Zezu1995]

disagree - while i understand the scaling chain needs to be cleaned up . If your gonna make downgrades you should be there for the upgrade topic. dont wait till theres a upgrade then make multiple downgrade post cuz i already theres more coming.

1- We dont have to prove the stars are legit.. everything created by chaos is legit.. it literally made the planet earth their on.. even stating in a Q/A that it had ties to modern day england and that nnt planet is "our" world.
as you can see here from an old Q/A

2- cover page i kinda get but NNT cover pages and q/a has always given us more dept or extra info , kinda like how OP cover pages tell a story and imo they should count but i wont fight this one to much.

3- demon king vs behemoth would still stand cuz their in the demon realm when this is taking place which we know has stars and moons inside. if you watched the movie cursed by light gelda says something about the light coming from the star in the demon king realm. i had an old scan iirc its from the demon realm or celestrial realm showing a sun

 

[Makai641001]

disagree - while i understand the scaling chain needs to be cleaned up . If your gonna make downgrades you should be there for the upgrade topic. dont wait till theres a upgrade then make multiple downgrade post cuz i already theres more coming.

1- We dont have to prove the stars are legit.. everything created by chaos is legit.. it literally made the planet earth their on.. even stating in a Q/A that it had ties to modern day england and that nnt planet is "our" world.
as you can see here from an old Q/A

Yeah Chaos’s creations are not illusions

2- cover page i kinda get but NNT cover pages and q/a has always given us more dept or extra info , kinda like how OP cover pages tell a story and imo they should count but i wont fight this one to much.

He already conceded the 4-A calc no need to adress it

3- demon king vs behemoth would still stand cuz their in the demon realm when this is taking place which we know has stars and moons inside. if you watched the movie cursed by light gelda says something about the light coming from the star in the demon king realm. i had an old scan iirc its from the demon realm or celestrial realm showing a sun

The scan you showed is an explosion from the fight between Meli/Zel and Dubs/Dahlia not a Sun.

The Behemoth panel is already enough evidence in itself the author drew stars for a reason.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm neutral about this. I've got my own revisions planned out for the characters but I'm mostly waiting for this final arc of Four Knights of the Apocalypse to end. Would be a waste of time for me upgrading or downgrading the characters depending on what feats we get in the next few chapters.

 

[Zezu1995]

Yeah Chaos’s creations are not illusions

He already conceded the 4-A calc no need to adress it

The scan you showed is an explosion from the fight between Meli/Zel and Dubs/Dahlia not a Sun.

The Behemoth panel is already enough evidence in itself the author drew stars for a reason.

found the scan when they first entered this is what i wanted to post. and gelda disliking the sun cuz shes a vampirehere we go

 

[Faa_Tzy]

It is the light used by the Supreme Deity to dispel all miasma.

 

[Majinere566]

Where does it say it’s the supreme deities?

 

[Bossbrosish]

Said imagery is a representation of the Demon world and it being a « sketch » does not change the fact that the author took time to draw said stars.

The stars are completely different and drawn with four points instead of little dots splattered across the page

Wdym ?
The question is directly involving Camelot, and the answer is straightforward.

I mean the answer is broad and semi-vague. The question brings up Camelot, but the answer simply says "places" and could mean anywhere other than Camelot.

UES was accepted already

Show me again where and apply it to the NNT pages like every other accepted UES then

An UES page is not required it was accepted and admins told us we could make the change

That's true, they did accept it but if iirc correctly, none asked about a UES (and honestly I have no clue which tier 4 thread it was that went through there was like three or four made at the same time)

It is shown with stars in the exact drawing you showed

Show me where then, because I don't see a single star in any of those expect dark clouds.

 

[Majinere566]

The stars are completely different and drawn with four points instead of little dots splattered across the page

Everything in that panel isn’t drawn the exact same. They are cartoonish sketches just like everything in that panel like the demon king, meteors, the demons etc.

The fact that he then decided to draw in a few cartoonish stars in the panel actually shows his intention.

 

[Faa_Tzy]

Where does it say it’s the supreme deities?

It is not specifically mentioned, but if it was done by Dubs and Dahlia (considering that they invaded the Demon Realm), then it can still be concluded that it came from the Supreme Deity, for several reasonable reasons:

1. Dubs and Dahlia are controlled by SD, which means that SD also interfered in the invasion of the Demon Realm.

2. The power that eradicated all the thick miasma was light. Goddesses’s power is based on light particles, so this is very possible because the light there affected Gelda's feelings.

3. This is supported by the statement that the light was different from the sun.

4. The light was golden in color, which is not the color of sunlight.

 

[Celest_Void]

I do want to point out, however, that NNT does not have a Verse-specific Powers and Abilities/universal energy system page regarding the use of magic in the series and whether or not creation would scale to physicals (as per the rules and this).

Nothing there says you need to create a page for UES; you are creating non-existent problems.

That's true, they did accept it but if iirc correctly, none asked about a UES

lol. 1, 2, 3, 4

The demon realm is also never shown with stars, but rather covered by clouds but does apparently contain two moons.

There are only six stars. If in our world, with billions of stars, there are still completely dark spaces in a starry sky, imagine in a small portion of a sky that has only six stars. We would have to look at a specific part of the sky.

I mean the answer is broad and semi-vague. The question brings up Camelot, but the answer simply says "places" and could mean anywhere other than Camelot.

You must not have read the continuation, so it is just your lack of knowledge. Camelot is a dimension with other spaces within it, connected by portals. When Nakaba says “places,” he means the different spaces; in some it is possible to see a starry sky, and in others not.

So I actually went back to check the feat for the Demon King and noticed something about the "starry sky" and the whole feat in general. It's just Zeldris explaining about the Behemoth and the claimed starry sky is just drawn stars and not like little dots. We're using a descriptive scene/imagery of something as an actual feat for the calc.

Zeldris lived for millennia in the demon world; I don’t see why he would add stars if they didn’t exist there. You know the meaning of “descriptive,” because this goes against what you are arguing.

describing something, especially in a detailed, interesting way

The Behemoth shown is even completely different from the actual one, further emphasizing that's it's imagery.

They are extremely similar, with only the nose as a difference.

Now, regarding the King Arthur calc that was accepted by a calc member but never actually applied. Why are we using a cover image for a feat when these cover images are clearly used for illustrative purposes and have nothing to do with the story?

We also have covers that are related to the story and still provide us with information about characters and places.

As I such, I suggest characters get downgraded to these two 5-A calcs (Though, one of the calcs seems to have some problem with it now regarding density) and until a specific powers and Abilities/Universal Energy System page is created regarding magic in the series, anything regarding 4-B goes back to being via creation like in the old profiles.

The UES has already been accepted. For the characters to stop scaling to their creations, you first need to refute it, which I don’t see happening in your CRT.

 

[Bossbrosish]

Nothing there says you need to create a page for UES; you are creating non-existent problems.

It literally says a common energy system is required.

The UES has already been accepted. For the characters to stop scaling to their creations, you first need to refute it, which I don’t see happening in your CRT.

Again, I've been told there is one, but that UES needs a page like everything else

 

[Faa_Tzy]

it's not saying there are starry skies in Camelot specifically, but places where you can see boundless stars in the sky (also, the answer is very vague and the doesn't even mention Camelot and I'm not even sure if the translation is accurate at all based on the wording in English), however this calc is still slightly valid because of the Cauldron of Annwfyn, which takes place inside of Camelot.

This is not vague, because it indirectly mentions that starry nights really exist in Camelot.

Nakaba didn't mention Camelot, but a places. Because Camelot contains various different places that are connected by Chaos Holes. But still, it's within the dimension of Camelot. I think this concept is similar to intercontinental.

 

[Celest_Void]

It literally says a common energy system is required.

And we have it, did you see what I wrote? I said that in the page you sent there was nothing mentioning the need to create a page for the UES.

but that UES needs a page like everything else

Where is it written that it is necessary to create a page for the UES and place it on the verse? I can’t find that anywhere in the Wiki.

 

[Damage3245]

Again, I've been told there is one, but that UES needs a page like everything else

Individual verses don't need their own pages explaining how their UES works.

 

[Bossbrosish]

Individual verses don't need their own pages explaining how their UES works.

Wait really? I honestly wasn't aware of that. I've always assumed popular verses needed a UES based on the rules

 

[Makai641001]

The stars are completely different and drawn with four points instead of little dots splattered across the page

Cause it’s a sketch drawing, an illustration.

The author still took time to draw stars.

I mean the answer is broad and semi-vague. The question brings up Camelot, but the answer simply says "places" and could mean anywhere other than Camelot.

The author is answering the question that’s about camelot…

Show me again where and apply it to the NNT pages like every other accepted UES then

Some other people sent it

That's true, they did accept it but if iirc correctly, none asked about a UES (and honestly I have no clue which tier 4 thread it was that went through there was like three or four made at the same time)

No

Show me where then, because I don't see a single star in any of those expect dark clouds.

It’s in your thread my g

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Disagree with this thread.
Nothing in the scans show anything saying the stars are fake..
Unless you're implying that artist/authors can't evolve their own art and improve it then you're blatantly wrong.

Also...
This?

"created the demon realm/dimension"
We have Someone else explaining the context of what the characters have to do.

So yea disagree. Unless you can find some evidence that says These stars are fake then yuh.

This is a matter of art evolution, and narrative explanation

We have literal context that the demon king created everything within his realm so..

 

[Zezu1995]

saying the stars are fake would be agreeing that NNT earth itself is also fake and NOTE... chaos got sealed soon after creating everything and it DIDNT VANISH. so the world held on even without its creator active. Which also goes against nabaka directly telling us "its just earth and britianna is modern day england" theres literally no debate here

 

[Bossbrosish]

Unless you're implying that artist/authors can't evolve their own art and improve it then you're blatantly wrong.

How is drawing stars differently compared to how they've always been shown when it's the only time they've been showing with four points and never even insituated anything like that in the slightest regarding the art style. I'm simply pointing out that whenever the Demon Realm is shown, the sky is shown to be hazy or cloudy with only two moons rather than being full of stars.

Cause it’s a sketch drawing, an illustration.

An illustration of exposition from Zeldris explaining to the cast about the Behemoth and we're using that as proof there's stars?

It’s in your thread my g

Show me where we see stars in the Demon Realm without using the one with the Behemoth. I checked every page involving the demon realm when it was shown in 4KOA and every background was shown to be cloudy/hazy when looking at the sky. I'd even take an image of the demon realm from the anime/ The Seven Deadly Sins: Cursed By Light movie

 

[Zezu1995]

ok soo even the anime didnt show the stars for behemoth, but what do we do with this scan? this shows monspeet and derideri in the demon realm with sunlight going thru the clouds

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

How is drawing stars differently compared to how they've always been shown when it's the only time they've been showing with four points and never even insituated anything like that in the slightest regarding the art style. I'm simply pointing out that whenever the Demon Realm is shown, the sky is shown to be hazy or cloudy with only two moons rather than being full of stars.

And as I've said before... Burden of proof is on you.
You explicitly ignored the context. The context being: The Demon Lord created the Demon World and the Demons it would MAKE sense to say that those stars are also included within the realm. You have 0 proof once again,
Also let's not forget the demon realm is known to be a polluted, hostile environment and also, said environment was caused by the demon king.. and after defeating him, the miasma (Haze/Fog) was cleared up to an extent making everything lay low.. and once the Behemoth came into action, miasma started to ramp up and get worse. As I asked/said before, show a scan that implies the stars are fake a scan any proof. Burden of proof falls onto you as I asked previously and haven't gotten that.

 

[Bossbrosish]

ok soo even the anime didnt show the stars for behemoth, but what do we do with this scan? this shows monspeet and derideri in the demon realm with sunlight going thru the clouds

Expect that that could also be Elizabeth making the memory more pleasant for Derieri, since that's when she realized how Monspeet love her (The forum is acting weird for me, I can't link anything like I normally would and I don't have access to a computer currently)

The Demon Lord created the Demon World and the Demons

And I'm not denying that the demon king created the demon realm, I'm saying there isn't much proof of their being countless stars expect for the one image with the Behemoth that's being used as "proof". I'm just raising my concerns regarding the calculations and the information that we're using for them.

As I asked/said before, show a scan that implies the stars are fake a scan any proof.

How about you or someone show me a scan of the demon realm that shows it with stars that isn't the Behemoth one and I only brought up the fake stars because of the rule VSBW has regarding pocket dimensions with celestial bodies. I myself never said the star were fake, I only brought up the rule regarding them that's it.

 

[Zezu1995]

Expect that that could also be Elizabeth making the memory more pleasant for Derieri, since that's when she realized how Monspeet love her (The forum is acting weird for me, I can't link anything like I normally would and I don't have access to a computer currently)
And I'm not denying that the demon king created the demon realm, I'm saying there isn't much proof of their being countless stars expect for the one image with the Behemoth that's being used as "proof". I'm just raising my concerns regarding the calculations and the information that we're using for them.
How about you or someone show me a scan of the demon realm that shows it with stars that isn't the Behemoth one and I only brought up the fake stars because of the rule VSBW has regarding pocket dimensions with celestial bodies. I myself never said the star were fake, I only brought up the rule regarding them that's it.

bro the link literally tells you its identical to the demon realm, and it turns out to be an old memory about it so yes its the demon realm.

 

[Makai641001]

Expect that that could also be Elizabeth making the memory more pleasant for Derieri, since that's when she realized how Monspeet love her (The forum is acting weird for me, I can't link anything like I normally would and I don't have access to a computer currently)
And I'm not denying that the demon king created the demon realm, I'm saying there isn't much proof of their being countless stars expect for the one image with the Behemoth that's being used as "proof". I'm just raising my concerns regarding the calculations and the information that we're using for them.
How about you or someone show me a scan of the demon realm that shows it with stars that isn't the Behemoth one and I only brought up the fake stars because of the rule VSBW has regarding pocket dimensions with celestial bodies. I myself never said the star were fake, I only brought up the rule regarding them that's it.

I’m not gonna entertain this ngl all these points are doodoo.

The author has the autority on his work, not Bossbrosish from VSBW.

He drew stars to represent DW so there are stars in the DW.

Any other instance is either plain day or covered by miasma which is why we can’t see them.

Now it’s either you elaborate on how the author is not a credible source for his own work or else you find an actual statement about these stars being fake.

 

[Celest_Void]

saying the stars are fake would be agreeing that NNT earth itself is also fake and NOTE... chaos got sealed soon after creating everything and it DIDNT VANISH. so the world held on even without its creator active. Which also goes against nabaka directly telling us "its just earth and britianna is modern day england" theres literally no debate here

Dude, he's saying the stars in the demon world are fake, what does Chaos have to do with that?

 

[Celest_Void]

How is drawing stars differently compared to how they've always been shown when it's the only time they've been showing with four points and never even insituated anything like that in the slightest regarding the art style. I'm simply pointing out that whenever the Demon Realm is shown, the sky is shown to be hazy or cloudy with only two moons rather than being full of stars.

The stars being the same as in cartoons is proof of the different art style adopted on that page. We don't need Nakaba saying he adopted a different art style when that's obvious.

There's no way you can see a sky full of stars. There are only 6 stars; you're not going to look anywhere in the sky and see hundreds.

 

[Bossbrosish]

I’m not gonna entertain this ngl all these points are doodoo.

The author has the autority on his work, not Bossbrosish from VSBW.

He drew stars to represent DW so there are stars in the DW.

Any other instance is either plain day or covered by miasma which is why we can’t see them.

Now it’s either you elaborate on how the author is not a credible source for his own work or else you find an actual statement about these stars being fake.

Jesus Christ, for the last time, I never once said the stars were fake! I only brought up the VSBW rules regarding them, that's it.

We'd also have to prove the stars/moons are legit.

I never once outright called them fake and only showing concern regarding what we're using for the calcs when the demon realm is never really shown with stars in the sky except for that one panel with the Behemoth! All I'm asking is for something else to be shown other than that one panel that shows stars in the sky! Y'all are straw manning what I said there when It was an methodological claim I made.


Pin point me calling the stars fake in anything I've said previously, cause I never once said they were fake.

 

[Celest_Void]

Expect that that could also be Elizabeth making the memory more pleasant for Derieri, since that's when she realized how Monspeet love her (The forum is acting weird for me, I can't link anything like I normally would and I don't have access to a computer currently)

The ability Elizabeth uses sends her soul to the past, and she relives events exactly as they happened; she cannot alter history to make it seem better.

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

How about you or someone show me a scan of the demon realm that shows it with stars that isn't the Behemoth one and I only brought up the fake stars because of the rule VSBW has regarding pocket dimensions with celestial bodies. I myself never said the star were fake, I only brought up the rule regarding them that's it.

Burden of proof is on you, you are implying the stars are "Fake" you didn't bring it up but what you implied as they didn't "exist" in actuality like they were just drawings on a paper.

You can't throw burden onto me when you still haven't shown anything detailing they don't exist.

Also show a scan of how many times we see the demon realm? Cause I can count. 3 to 4 times! Barely enough time, and what we see? Stars on panel!

It would make sense to say that the demon king once again created those stars as we have The Demon Lord created the Demon World and the Demons. So as I ask again, find a scan that shows the stars are fake. You saying the author isn't reliable or credible isn't proof.

Also the times we see the DW is either covered in a thick haze or smoke. So not enough time

I'm not entertaining this any further

 

[Saqphire]

These arguments are pretty weak, ngl.

While the scan that is used to justify the existence of a starry sky and the Behemoth is kinda crude of a description, that doesn't invalidate the existence of said starry sky in reality. That's like saying a child's crude drawing of the Sun being pointed as a circle with lines invalidates the existence of the actual Sun which has far more details than that. Although I do agree that it's on the positive side's to prove how the stars are real stars, it's pretty self-evident as to how they are; Occam's Razor and allat.

Furthermore Camelot has multiple showings of a starry sky, not just the cover image, so bringing it up is largely irrelevant for refuting a point. Although the cover image "not adding anything to the plot" doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't account for canon locations; the place shown in that image is literally in Camelot in the story.

Disagree with removing the feats, agree with the UES point; however there already is an UES accepted so that point is already moot.

 

[Bossbrosish]

Bump

 

[Majinere566]

Still yet to address the counter arguments

 

[Bossbrosish]

Burden of proof is on you, you are implying the stars are "Fake" you didn't bring it up but what you implied as they didn't "exist" in actuality like they were just drawings on a paper.

Again there is a significant misunderstanding regarding what I said in the OP. I was not making a factual claim that the stars are fake, illusions, or what have you; I was raising a methodological concern based on VSBW’s own criteria for Tier 4 pocket dimensions, which requires us to verify if celestial bodies are literal stars or just background decoration. What I have said in the OP is being strawmanned into 'the author is wrong,' which was never my stance.

Still yet to address the counter arguments

I have already addressed the contradictions regarding the art style of the Behemoth panel and the consistent depiction of the Demon Realm's sky throughout the rest of the series.

I feel like this will end up going in circles as I've already have laid out my concerns regarding the consistency and validity of the evidence used for these Tier 4 calcs. I don’t believe there is anything else for me to add without repeating myself, so I’ll leave it to the any saff (which I've already messaged a few and just waiting) to evaluate the arguments and decide on the path forward.

Occam's Razor

I will say though that this is new to me. I've actually never heard of this up until now. So that's neat. I do like learning new things.

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Again there is a significant misunderstanding regarding what I said in the OP. I was not making a factual claim that the stars are fake, illusions, or what have you; I was raising a methodological concern based on VSBW’s own criteria for Tier 4 pocket dimensions, which requires us to verify if celestial bodies are literal stars or just background decoration. What I have said in the OP is being strawmanned into 'the author is wrong,' which was never my stance.

(0.1)Sure , it wasn't your stance but you implied they weren't real. You implied they didn't exist in literal terms.So as I ask, again. Where is your proof for that? I've asked 3-4 times. Burden of proof is still on you.

1.You haven't sent any. Your words aren't proof , that one little scan you are arguing against isn't proof either.
You're taking that scan out of context, as as I ask this also once again! How many times do we see the demon realm? How many times in the series, have we been there? 3-4 times?? And we just barely see anything in those times because the narrative shifts along with the plot?

(2You're arguing against narrative and plot, and plot has us already being told that the demon king has created literally everything within his realm. a planet, a sun, two moons and six stars
And those stars are on the panel.)


So your debunk debunks itself based on narrative shifts. What you're arguing would go against the narrative and the plot and art ://.

Now as I said before, I'm not entertaining this any further
Unless you provide a argument for why they're nonexistent. What were shown is how the narrative already portays it. Also it doesn't help that the demon realm is just now getting utilized fully, so.. still doesn't debunk anything.

 

[Makai641001]

Again there is a significant misunderstanding regarding what I said in the OP. I was not making a factual claim that the stars are fake, illusions, or what have you;

You brought it up

I was raising a methodological concern based on VSBW’s own criteria for Tier 4 pocket dimensions, which requires us to verify if celestial bodies are literal stars or just background decoration.

Unless you have a specific reason to think it would be fake this rule is generally overlooked

What I have said in the OP is being strawmanned into 'the author is wrong,' which was never my stance.

Ngl it feels like it is, or at least that you think Nakaba included things for no reason.

I have already addressed the contradictions regarding the art style of the Behemoth panel and the consistent depiction of the Demon Realm's sky throughout the rest of the series.

We’ve been in Makai like 5 times.
4/5 times Miasma was covering everything, the fifth a source of light was triggering Rayleigh scattering (which hides stars)

I feel like this will end up going in circles as I've already have laid out my concerns regarding the consistency and validity of the evidence used for these Tier 4 calcs.

Which you conceded could be used based solely on Anfwynn.

I don’t believe there is anything else for me to add without repeating myself, so I’ll leave it to the any saff (which I've already messaged a few and just waiting) to evaluate the arguments and decide on the path forward.

I will say though that this is new to me. I've actually never heard of this up until now. So that's neat. I do like learning new things.

This thread feels like a general misunderstanding about vsbw rules mixed with style over substance arguments