Regarding Saber's Avalon

[KamiYasha]

As someone may have noticed, Saber's Durability recently was change to Low Complex Multiverse level.

This thread is more about that i want opinion of you guys to know if we should accept this or not.

This is from the Encyclopedia that came with the Limited 1st Edition of the Fate Visual Novel .

and says this about Avalon's Ability:

Avalon shut out all physical interference, operation of parallel worlds, and multi-dimensional communication (up to the sixth dimension).

If Saber went hikikomori, no one would reach her.

Note: Hikikomori It is a Japanese term for people who are isolated in their room.

It May be a reference to the ability itself?

The fact is that Avalon doesn't tank an incoming attack, just insolates the user to the Fairies Realm.

Plus, it does not requiere Prana or Mana to work, given the fact that a severely injured Shiro was able to use and save his life. (Shiro a fodder in term of using Mana...at least in Fate/Stay Night)

Also, there isn't a time limit for Avalon (It was only used once and then all done.)

Of course Avalon has its limits, Saber can not attack while Avalon is active, at the moment when she tryied to attack someone Avalon will fade away.

So, i want to know your opinions about this.

 

[A6colute]

Well, as I know, It's just some pocket space outside usual multiverse. It's not Low Complex Multiverse level durability. It's just some sort of multiversal teleportation.

 

[LordAizenSama]

While I don't mind it I'd rather not have every battle with saber where she would normally lose without avalon to turn into "lulz avalon so stalemate"

it's a shame it doesn't have a timelimit to balance it out, so alas i'm not sure.

 

[Tivanenk]

I highly doubt that's how it works.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

While I don't mind it I'd rather not have every battle with saber where she would normally lose without avalon to turn into "lulz avalon so stalemate"
it's a shame it doesn't have a timelimit to balance it out, so alas i'm not sure.

I'm with Aizen on this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also:

"Avalon shut out all physical interference, operation of parallel worlds, and multi-dimensional communication (up to the sixth dimension)."

It shuts physical attacks as well. The bit "Multi-Dimensional communication (up to the sixth dimension)" seems weardly phrased, but maybe that's translation. My interpretation is that since the sixth dimension bit is under paranthesis, it's not a part of the multi-dimensional communication bit only, but something that applies to all of it's defenses.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

While I don't mind it I'd rather not have every battle with saber where she would normally lose without avalon to turn into "lulz avalon so stalemate"
it's a shame it doesn't have a timelimit to balance it out, so alas i'm not sure.

So more of like a conditional ability then? Alright

 

[Alakabamm]

It's not really dimensional transportation though. You can think of it as a fragment of the Faes' powers, who are probably at that level themselves.

 

[Reppuzan]

I'm not a Fate expert (even though I readily enjoy the lore), but does isolation really count as durability? On one hand, it sounds more like hax since Saber is obviously not a six-dimensional character. On the other, Avalon sealing her in a hidden realm in the sixth-dimension would make her nigh-untouchable.

According to the Type-Moon Wiki, Avalon "goes beyond defending or reflecting", but in the DEEN anime it's animated as tanking a full power Enuma Elish, so whether it's dodging or blocking is up in the air for me (a VN reader might be able to clear this up).

Basically, on the one route it appears, it's Saber's Anti-Gilgamesh weapon since it was only used to its fullest power against Enuma Elish. However, while she can't attack during use, she can start charging up Excalibur while Avalon is active, allowing her to instantly counterattack after tanking the hit.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

how long does it take to activate btw?

 

[Blahblah9755]

I think it's fine for the "lulz Avalon so stalemate" argument she would never use it in character and it wouldn't matter to anyone who can blitz her. Alternatively "up to the sixth dimension" could be referring to 3D beings with dimensional coordinates of 4,5,6; 2,3,5; 1,3,6; etc and not actual higher dimensional beings

 

[LordAizenSama]

^^^Take this info with a grain of salt, but From Conversations I have with Readers and knowledgable people of Fate, apparently Nasu likes to show things differently to how they are explained or stated to work.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, the mere fact that it seals her in a realm inside sixth dimensional space makes her untouchable by non 6-D chars.

 

[Shanks_of_the_red_haired_pirates]

So it's basically from the databook?..

 

[DontTalk]

I am sceptical about it not requiring mana/prana. At least in the anime version she used excalibur light stuff after it was used, so its not like they really were out of energy. (her energy is linked to shiros isn't it? Well, it also was used by herself in that scene, so that energy could alternatively have come from saber...)

As a noble phantasm it should technically cost a lot.

Hence I would also not speculate on it having no time limit. As you said it was only used quite shortly it could drain her quite a bit on prolonged use.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So it's basically from the databook?..

Written by Nasu and bundled with the game.

 

[Shanks_of_the_red_haired_pirates]

Written by Nasu and bundled with the game.

Databooks are written by the Original authors ?

 

[Shanks_of_the_red_haired_pirates]

Does the game ever say anything about this?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Never heard of a Databook written by the original author?

Saint Seiya has that as well, for instance.

And while I don't know if the game mentions it, ignoring it would be like ignoring word of God statements for anything.

 

[Alakabamm]

But the way Avalon's other uses has been portrayed makes it seem like it draws energy from the environment somehow. It healed Shiro when he was a child and Kerry was not using mana. It prevented Shiro from dying to Berserker's hit unconsciously. And it also tanked Enuma Elish, which is a planet buster, so it's clearly not a direct energy conversion that's occuring.

 

[Shanks_of_the_red_haired_pirates]

Never heard of a Databook written by the original author?

Saint Seiya has that as well, for instance.

And while I don't know if the game mentions it, ignoring it would be like ignoring word of God statements for anything.

I'm fairly certain HST databooks are written by their original authors so null point

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

But the way Avalon's other uses has been portrayed makes it seem like it draws energy from the environment somehow. It healed Shiro when he was a child and Kerry was not using mana. It prevented Shiro from dying to Berserker's hit unconsciously. And it also tanked Enuma Elish, which is a planet buster, so it's clearly not a direct energy conversion that's occuring.

Exactly. The user doesn't need to be 6-D for it to affect like that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Never heard of a Databook written by the original author?

Saint Seiya has that as well, for instance.

And while I don't know if the game mentions it, ignoring it would be like ignoring word of God statements for anything.

I'm fairly certain HST databooks are written by their original authors so null point

If you read the Encyclopedia translation there's nothing there that contradicts what's shown on game.

 

[Alakabamm]

Because Shiki aka Void is Akasha's avatar and the other representations seem to be conscious as well (Alaya, Gaia)

 

[DontTalk]

But the way Avalon's other uses has been portrayed makes it seem like it draws energy from the environment somehow. It healed Shiro when he was a child and Kerry was not using mana. It prevented Shiro from dying to Berserker's hit unconsciously. And it also tanked Enuma Elish, which is a planet buster, so it's clearly not a direct energy conversion that's occuring.

What do you mean by how it is portrayed? My knowledge about power in fate is laking, but doesn't every living being have a magical energy stored inside itself? In that case using just that power avalons passive healing abilities may work. It in the first place is another function then avalons defense.

I am also not suggesting that the mechanism requires a certain amount of power to withstand specific attacks, but just that it may require power to uphold the defensive barrier, no matter wether it is attacked or not.

 

[Alakabamm]

Yes, but I am saying that the environment - not the wielder - provides that energy somehow. Kerry had no idea that Shirou had magic circuits yet tried to heal him with Avalon. Shirou - who by all means should realize if his soul's energy is being sapped - was healed unconsciously by Avalon.

This difference means that what seems to power Avalon is not Od (the magic power inside the magic circuit) but Mana (the energy of the world itself and the ambient environment).

The fact that the Fae likely use Mana over Od implies this as well.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

While this is technically protection from other attacks, this should by no means count as durability. It's more a form of self BFR, as Saber can't attack during it so it shouldn't really matter. It should be noted on the profile, but not included in durability, and also not really usable in battles to the death.

I'm also sort of skeptical about it having no time limit.

 

[DontTalk]

Seems speculative for me. Is mana there without limits in the first place?

If not it still likely has a time limit based on that.

 

[Alakabamm]

Well, it is a type of durability because it means she can tank any attack below it as long as she can react to that attack.

If you're talking about a mana limit, it's gonna be at least planet level because of:

a) EA pinging harmlessly off it

b) Ado Edem being able to throw out planet busters at the cost of most of the planet's dying energy

So yea, planet level minimum if you wanna see it like that.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, it is a type of durability because it means she can tank any attack below it as long as she can react to that attack

Avalon doesn't tank the attack, though.

It's also not like Saber can fight back while it's active.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Azzy

I'm not sure that it isn't usable for Battles. It clearly makes her immune to all manner of attacks up to the Sixth Dimension, and also heals her and deflects attacks. Yes, it isn't her durability and she needs to be in a defensive, non-attacking stance to use it, but it's part of her arsenal.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Azzy
I'm not sure that it isn't usable for Battles. It clearly makes her immune to all manner of attacks up to the Sixth Dimension, and also heals her and deflects attacks. Yes, it isn't her durability and she needs to be in a defensive, non-attacking stance to use it, but it's part of her arsenal.

No, I mean she can use it, but this does not mean it helps in matches she would otherwise lose, as she can't fight back while it's active. There's also the fact that it likely has a limit.

 

[Alakabamm]

Well, it is a type of durability because it means she can tank any attack below it as long as she can react to that attack

Avalon doesn't tank the attack, though.
It's also not like Saber can fight back while it's active.

Well, it certainly doesn't redirect the attack either.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think we should have Avalon in her Durability but explain all of it's limitations in notes and powers section.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, it certainly doesn't redirect the attack either.

Yes, but that's because it's not a traditional forcefield or barrier. It's isolating Saber in another realm. Saber herself doesn't create some sort of barrier which can withstand 6-D attacks.

 

[Alakabamm]

If you're thinking of it that way then it may be possible that Avalon is actually just BFR'ing the attack away.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If you're thinking of it that way then it may be possible that Avalon is actually just BFR'ing the attack away.

Still, even if it is BFR, the fact that the place Saber stays is immune to 6-D attacks is impressive.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If you're thinking of it that way then it may be possible that Avalon is actually just BFR'ing the attack away.

Well, it probably is. It's technically BFR'ing the user to another realm for protection, so it could probably put the attack somewhere else due to explicitly keeping everything else out.

 

[DontTalk]

Well, it is a type of durability because it means she can tank any attack below it as long as she can react to that attack.
If you're talking about a mana limit, it's gonna be at least planet level because of:

a) EA pinging harmlessly off it

b) Ado Edem being able to throw out planet busters at the cost of most of the planet's dying energy

So yea, planet level minimum if you wanna see it like that.

Well, what avalon can defend against doesn't necessarily relate to the energy it has in use given its mechanism.

I would also believe that how one uses the energy avaiable has a lot of influence, given the vastly different levels of attacks there are.

That aside even if the energy avaiable is planet level, given what avalon is supposed to do we don't know how fast that much energy would be consumed. So it could very well be used up after 10 minutes or something.

 

[Alakabamm]

I suppose but those are the precedents