Regarding Necrozma's tier

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

So my understanding is, and has been, that Ultra Space is basically what's between all of the universes and pocket dimensions of the pokemon multiverse. As there are an infinite number of them, so to is ultra space infinite. And Necrozma's power is enough to light not only ALL of ultra space, but every universe through the ultra wormholes. So how is it he is only at universal+? Wouldn't being able to light up an entire multiverse be higher than universe+? Especially if ultra space is what lies beyond and in between all the universes of said multiverse.

Ultra Space isn't exactly that well defined in canon, but that's the understanding I got from what the games present. So Necrozma being only universe+ seems off. Granted, I wouldn't scale it directly to Palkia, Dialga, and Giratina, whonwould still out class it by a lot, but you get my point.

If I missed something I do apologize. And any clarification on the current tier would be appreciated, or at the least any input on the idea of Necrozma being a higher tier. (Again, not scalijg hik directly to creation trio. BUILDING the multiverse takes far more than giving it light).

 

[Thelastmlg]

First, small correction, he isn't universe+, he is high universal.

Second, no, he didn't affect the multiverse in any significant way, he simple spread light around, the only we can give them AP is by getting the energy needed to light such a big area.

With infinite universes, that makes ultra space infinite in size and thus he would need to produce infinite amounts of light to reach every universe (which he doesn't light up completely btw, he simple lets out some light on)

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Hmmm ok. I guess thats fair. But you can get where im coming from right? Giving light to the multiverse sounds like it would be higher than universe tier. Like im not arguing he could destroy the ENTIRE multiverse, cause again, creation/destruction takes vastly more power than giving light. Am I wrong in feeling like the tiering feels a tad underwhelming?

Then again, pokemon never gave the exact specifics of its cosmology when it comes to the big guy.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Here is the thing, in this case the multiverse is only refering to the amount of light coming out of it's body, not it's power, if you don't affect the multiverse, you aren't really doing something as impressive.

Also technically he is not lighting the multiverse, he is only lighting up ultra space, which is a universe filled with portals to other universes

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

I guess that's fair. Although I always felt ultra space was a lot more than a universe. Like here is what I mean.

You have universe A and universe B. US, ultra space would be around and between them, like (US (A) US (B) US) and to break out of said universe and into ultra space you need ultra wormholes. From there you find the portal from A to B or any other universe you desire to go to. Though I guess I didnt consider its entire power would flow from the portals into each universe, but it all kind of hinges on one'a views on ultra space itself. Ive heard everything from "its another solar system" to "it's another multiverse" which both made no sense to me.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Here is the thing, ultra space is not between universes or anything, it is it's own dimension that is filled with portals to universes, is like a cave with a pound that has a hole to the ocean, would you say the cave is all over the ocean?

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

I'm talking about where you go when you enter a portal, im not talking about nihilego's weird cave thing XD

 

[Thelastmlg]

I'm refering to ultra space, the cave part was a analogy i made about how ultra space can lead you to other universes but doesn't contain them

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

That was never the impression it gave me. Ultra Space isnt well explained though.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

I did some digging and im not the only one with that view of ultra space. Think about it. What do we know about utlra space?

1: You NEED an ultra wormhole to enter jt. The "link cable" wormholes as seen in ORAS are a more direct "A to B", while the ultra wormholes are "A to ultra space then to whever you want if you find the right portal".

2: it links to ALL universes.

3: in the ORIGINAL sun and moon, Lusamine calls it a world parallel to ours, BUT that was when we only saw ultra deep sea, Nihilego's world. In thw ultra titles, Ultra Space is a vast network of universes.

4: your cave analogy: if each universe is a chamber in a cave system, as you suggest, you still have THE REST OF THE CAVE surrounding that one chamber and all its neighboring chambers. Thus each chamber = a universe and ultra space = the entirety of the cave system itself.

In a sense, Ultra Space is like a vast spacial void between all the universes. We see other instances of travel between universes and dimensions in pokemon, but all of them are nothing like ultra space, as they tend to be direct A to B portals, or higher or totally seprate realms altogether like Arceus' domain.

Plus, we already HAVE a realm that sits opposite of the pokemon multiverse in the form of the distortion world, where giratina holds dominion. And as we see in the games, it's not just light that came to the pokemon universes and ultra space, but Z-crystals, many of which grant powerful attacks to the pokemon that use them, and can even CHANGE ARCEUS' TYPE, not unlike his plates. Necrozma's physiology has SOME minor effect on Arceus as those crystals are literal chunks of Necrozma's body that broke off from it. It's light would need to A: light up an infinite spacial void that lies between universes and B: reach into every universe, save the ones it would later steal light from after its "fall from grace", and its z-power giving crystals would also have been scattered in such a similar manner, albiet to a potentially kesser degree as these are physical objects, not vast ammounts of light.

My argument is that Necrozma's power, reach, and importance to the pokemon multiverse. While its not on the same tier as Giratina, Palkia, or Dialga, who govern literal concepts of the multiverse, and Arceus, who made said concepts, Necrozma is still likely on a much higher range than just "universal". Again, going back to your cave analogy, its light would not only have to spread across the cave system itself, but into every single chamber. Granted, I am speaking for Ultra Necrozma, as normal necrozma took a massive blow to it's power and has to go around stealing light from universes and even solgaleo and lunala to try and recover itself. In its true state, that's what I'm arguing is higher than what is listed on vs wiki, given the energy it would have to produce to grant light to ultra space and every single universe connected to it. Even if the light pouring into each universe is only a portion of its powers that's still an potentially infinite number of universes across a vast spatial void, with some worlds even having more than one wormhole popping up in different locations, not just artificially but naturally to. And its not even just a normal light that its trio gives off, but its z-crystals as stated grant powerful attacks, Arceus can draw enough power from them to change types, and the other two light trio members' light grants visible buffs to pokemon like the totem pokemon. At the very least, I say 2-C to 2-B for its ultra form, as its only giving light and Z-power to these worlds, and not governing major concepts of creation itself, like the creation trio does.

Although that makes me wonder.....the crystals are chunks of its body yeah? But it itself is only psychic/dragon, while the crystals cover EVERY type. What is the deal with that? It doesn't change types like Arceus does, but parts of itself give of energy of every type, that can also change Arceus' type but have some variants that are EXCLUSIVE to specific pokemon who have specific moves? Pokemon biology is weird lol.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Coming back to this, I rewatched a theory that sort of plays into what I'm getting at. It is a video bird keeper toby, a prevalent poke-tuber, did regarding the pokemon multiverse and how it fits simultaneously into four basic types of multiverse, one of which fits in with what I'm talking about with Ultra Space, that the universe, be it just the observable universe or an infinite or continuously growing one, is within a metaphorical bubble. By exiting that bubble, we can witness other said bubbles, other universes. And ultra worm holes, are holds piercing that bubble, that allow us to exit said bubble and through the ultra ride, find other such wormholes in ultra space. ULTRA Space is what's outside of OUR space.

 

[Thelastmlg]

The issue is that none of this is multiversal, those theories and such are meaningless when the games make it clear that the entire purpose of ultra space is to be filled with portals to other universes, that's it, it is not a multiverse itself or anything, it is simple a dimension with portals, it connecting to every universe just means it has infninite portals and thus infinite size.

Necrozma's "purpose" or anything is irrelevant, it is not an abstract that's fundamentak for reality, it is simple a pokemon with energy that illuminated ultra space and the portals.

The issue is that you are using too much assumptions and headcanons to try to push a upgrade that doesn't fuction with our system.

Necrozma absorbed the light of a universe, and illuminates it, portals are scattered and so the light reacsh them too, that's it, anything more is just mental gymnastics.

I seriously don't understand how you are getting to 2-C or 2-B at all, mostly because your wall of text is too big and filled with repetitive stuff, but look, if your arguments are just multiplying universal to get to multiversal, it doesn't work like that, multipliers don't make you jump tiers when you reach high 3-A, because at that point we have infinite gaps and more.

Necrozma only scales to spreading infinite light, which is high 3-A, he won't reach low 2-C unless he explicitly, at the very least, significantly affect a timeline, and he won't reach 2-C or 2-B unless he explicitly foes the same to other universes at once, lightining them does not count, he is just spreading energy, not affecting spacetime.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

1: I never classed it as its own multiverse. Ultra space, in what I am getting at, is what's BETWEEN the universes in the multiverse with the wormholes being the entrance and exit point to the other universes. Again kind of like the void between universes we see in say, dragon ball super, only more elaborate.

2: there is nothing stating it's JUST some dimension with wormholes. Ultra space is hardly defined AT ALL, making both of our interpretations head canony to some degree. I have YET to find any evidence to your claim of what ultra space is as its own supposed dimension that just happens to house wormholes to other universes. Im at least trying to go off of comparisons between what we see and know of ultra space, vs concepts like the link cable.

3: I never made ANY claim that it is some abstract being, and have said that it is bellow the creation trio several times. Just that it MAY be stronger than listed on the wiki. NOT that it's some crazy higher dimensional thing with avatars. Which hasn't been a thing I said at all.

My argument is that, depending on how one views ultra space, I've seen many arguments for BOTH views on it, Necrozma COULD be argued as being higher than just a basic universe tier being. I wasn't trying to go through "mental gymnastics", I have been digging around to get a grasp of what ultra space could be, as it's not elaborated on, based on what evidence we DO have and logic.

Answer this. WHY would arceus or the creation trio just have some random ass dimension lying around that contains wormholes to other dimensions? What would be the purpose? Meanwhile a void separating the universes ACTUALLY has some cosmological purpose beyond just "this is where we keep our wormholes" as it sets boundaries. Meanwhile dimensions like the distortion world are distinct in that they have PURPOSE in conjunction to the pokemon multiverse. Can you see what I'm getting at here?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Another day, another OP for a significant upgrade with 0 scans. This should be closed just for that. Bring scans of what your saying being true.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

I'll just close it myself. Even though there is just as many scans proving his claim on ultra space. I looked. The only "scan" is "oh it has infinite wormholes" from a website that barely even describes ultra space in any detail. Literally BOTH of our view points fit that description.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Uhhh how does one close their own thread?

 

[Thelastmlg]

You can't, only staff can.

1. If it is between universes, being bigger than them and you claim that it makes necrozma 2-C to 2-B, than you are claiming it is multiversal in size.

2. Dude, the games literally just call it another dimension, and when you go there on the minigames, it is simple a universe with portals, that's it, i'm going off with what the game shows us, you are going off with headcanon and theories, that's the difference, this site always goes for the safer lowball, if all the definition we got of ultra space is "a dimension with portals" than it is just a dimension with portals.

3. Than what was the point in bringing up the creation trio at all? If it has nothing to do wih them, it has no importance to reality, your point makes no sense.

4. Because they can and wanted to? Maybe they wanted to create a place that allows humans and pokemon to cross universes with the ultra beasts? Must i remind you that the reflection caves exists? It is literally just a cave with portals to other universes, it is nothing more than that, ultra space is the game version of it.

Again, all headcanon, we go by proof, if you have no evidence that ultra space is between universes besides "oh it makes" and "other people think so", no upgrade is happening claiming that "the creation trio must've made it this or that" is irrelevant because WE GO BY PROOF, NOT BELIEF, whatever is the reason they created is not shown and thus doesn't matter until it appears

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Fine I get it.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Final thought before any closure...I just realized, regardless of my views on ultra space, necrozma can't be as high as I'm suggesting as, given how the multiverse works in pokemon, where every cartridge is its own universe, there would be probably multiple necrozmas in the multiverse (and it doesnt work on an avatar based system like the creators) so likely not ALL of the light is being given off by a SINGLE necrozma. So...kinda debunked myself on that one. Joy!

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

I requested a thread closure. Sorry for wasting anyone's time. Just think ultra space being some random ass dimension filled with portals makes zero sense. But I guess there isnt that much evidence for either variation.

 

[Thelastmlg]

From what i recall, the catridge stuff is actually each game is it's own multiverse with it's own ultra space, so necrozma is giving off the light by itself, but only on it's own ultra space, while other necrozmas are doing their own stuff.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Wait each is its own multiverse? That's just even more confusing....here's to hoping Gamefreak actually charts out pokemon's cosmology, but let's be honest, they probably wont. They'll probably keep adding more weird dimensions without fully explaining them. XD

 

[Thelastmlg]

Yeah i'm sure they are not even aware of the cosmology they created, they probably think it is just a single multiverse

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Im still confused on how each single game is its own multiverse. Id understand VISITING different parts of the multiverse, but each one being an entire multiverse? Ya lost me on that one. I just thought it was a single, albiet infinite, multiverse, with weird things like the dream world and the distortion world added for flare. Oh god the dream world is another can of worms since where would be as many dream worlds as there are people and pokemon. And they are apparently real enough in the world of pokemon, especially since its where the therian forms of the forces of nature came from originally (and potentially darkrai and creselia given their HEAVY association with dreams?).