Regarding hax for 3D beings with higher-dimensional powers.

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I raise this topic because there's a disagreement on whether or not Bill Cipher can affect 4D beings with his hax since he's a 3D being with 4D powers and never used that hax on a 4D being.

I just want answers on how that's handled here. Do we assume it works on higher-dimensional beings or do they have to prove it can?

 

[Sound_of_Infinity]

The title should be "Does hax always scale to dimensional tiering".

 

[Elizhaa]

There is the Higher-Dimensional Manipulation page

 

[Elizhaa]

The title should be "Does hax always scale to dimensional tiering".

Agreed

 

[Elizhaa]

There is the Higher-Dimensional Manipulation page

via this page, yes

 

[Sound_of_Infinity]

I don't think hax should always be scaled to dimensional tiering. Like an example I brought up in the Bill revision thread, Beerus is Low 2-C but hakai has never shown to be 4-D.

To know which haxes are 4-D, I think we need proofs that those haxes work on 4-Ds or 4-dimensional space. Which may sounds rather complicated but it's actually simple.

 

[Elizhaa]

Sound of Infinity, it is either that or ap scaling which would require thousands of profile change.

Hax resistance during versus matchups. Amexim proposed an ap scaling like this before in the hax thread.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Not really. A higher dimensional being can be able to warp reality of lower dimensions, but cannot actually affect their own dimensional level. Like anything, you'd need feats to prove that. This is especially true for Bill Cipher-like beings, who mainly use their powers to mess with Lower D beings instead of facing off with people on their level.

 

[Agnaa]

That would downgrade the hax of the god-tiers of many verses.

 

[Sound_of_Infinity]

@Saikou

Thanks. That's what I was trying to say.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

but saikou you haven't seen his show

Depends really, on a number of things.

 

[Wokistan]

Personally, I think that unless outright stated to be the case like with Bill in particular, it's a bizarre assumption to make that only one of their abilities by default can work on such a level.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Personally, I think that unless outright stated to be the case like with Bill in particular, it's a bizarre assumption to make that only one of their abilities by default can work on such a level.

I think it is actually quite natural for a lot of characters, that they are nigh-omnipotent on levels lower then them, but fairly limited on levels equal to their own.

High-tier battles seen in fiction are suprinsingly often less potent reality warping and more smashing the opponents with the higher level equivalents of meteors or stuff like that.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Basically what DT said. It's even truer when we deal with characters who see others as fiction.

 

[Agnaa]

It seems like if this gets accepted a lot of tier 2+ fights will need to be removed.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Not really. We've require proof for this since quite a long time and most characters do have feats of 4-D hax. Maybe Bill.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

But bill currently has no victories and a **** ton of losses

 

[Agnaa]

Like I brought up in the other thread, Monika for example only has shown her EE working on other 4-D beings.

Pretty much any verse or story where there are no other god-tiers on their level that are interacted with would have no hax on their AP/dura level.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Monika's EE erased timelines, so it's 4-D in scale.

 

[Agnaa]

I know. I said that in my post.

Like I brought up in the other thread, Monika for example only has shown her EE working on other 4-D beings.

But none of her other abilities could be assumed to work on 4D beings, so any of her matches that rely on her possibly using those other abilities would need to be removed. Every god-tier that has no-one on their level would also need to have any wins via hax removed, and some losses would probably need to be removed because they'd be stomps.

 

[Sound_of_Infinity]

Her powernull is also 4-D. Since she nulled The Player

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

it also not all that good since it can only take away data manipulation

 

[Sound_of_Infinity]

Plothax is also 4D since she can manipulate the scripts.

 

[Agnaa]

How do we know that her manipulating the script lets her plothax 4-Ds?

None of the 4-Ds are bound by the script.

 

[Sound_of_Infinity]

• Script: She can edit the "script" of the game at will, therefore deciding every event that happens within the game. At her maximum potential, she could accidentally force the Player to stay inside the classroom and next to Yuri's corpse for two days straight and she could drastically alter the behavior and personality of her friends. She can even completely erase the script, leaving the world as a timeless place where nothing can happen against her will.

Does that sound like 4-D? If not then my fault

 

[Agnaa]

I'm not actually sure, since all the beings with 4-D power aren't restrained by the script.

But still, this example of Monika is just to demonstrate how this hasn't been the default we've gone by in matches, and hasn't really been considered often, so we'd need to have a large-scale look at/revision of tier 2 profiles if this policy got changed.

 

[DMB_1]

One thing we definitely have to establish in this case is Mind Manipulation:

There are characters who have their Mind Manipulation to be considered "Tier 2" because the can mind-hax every human the multiverse or something.

However, that doesn't mean that the mind hax itself is actually 4D.

 

[Christian_Higdon]

Bill: weak enough

Other people:

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I feel that this comes up with characters that are litirally unmatched and view others as fiction (litirally sometimes).

There are several characters that are capable of affecting the plot for a story they made, which I can tecnically do too, doesn't mean my plot manipulation works on my dimensional level.

As for monika, she manipulates the script, which litirally broke the universe (or multiverse) when changed too much by her.

 

[Kaltias]

I agree with Saik.

A Low 2-C reality warper could be nigh-omnipotent from our perspective, that doesn't mean it would be able to affect another being on its level to the same extent.

For example, say that character X views the entire cosmology up to 8-D as a book, and can edit it as they please.

Does it make sense to assume that they can do the same to a being that exists on the same level as them?

 

[Sound_of_Infinity]

Then most of Bill's haxes aren't 4D because they haven't shown to work on 4Ds

 

[Sound_of_Infinity]

Bump

 

[Sound_of_Infinity]

Personally, I think that unless outright stated to be the case like with Bill in particular, it's a bizarre assumption to make that only one of their abilities by default can work on such a level.

Godcat for example. She's Low 2-C but only RW is 4D

 

[Kaltias]

I mean no one here knows Godcat except 10 people at most so she isn't exactly the best example

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Well it would be pretty weird for a 4D hax to not affect a 4D being.

Affection = Dimensionality

If you affect a higher D being, your hax is higher D (on the level of the being that was affected)

If you have higher D hax, you can affect higher D beings. It would be pretty bizzare if a 2D being who can warp 3D space is unable to affect us. It can manipulate the world on our level of existence so it logically can. I think it would be a very special case if higher D hax can't affect higher D being of the same level as long as the being is not a total god of the verse who can just brush off the potency of the hax.

 

[DMB_1]

You misunderstood the point of the thread:

What the OP is asking, is if we automatically assume that hax possessed by a Tier 2 or a Higher Dimensional Being can work on other Higher Dimensional beings, or if it needs feats first.

Bill Cipher, for example, has a lot of abilities that can ignore durability, but none of them have ever shown to work on a higher dimensional being.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Oh...my bad.

Well i'd say yes. Having powers on a lower level than your existence would be pretty weird. The only case would be with above fiction where a human cannot bestow powers to another human but can do so to any 2D being. Though unless that is the case then it would scale.

Because as long as he is part of the story it means he is manipulating them, though there would be the only problem of:

Is he manipulating them via his own hax?

or

Is he manipulating them via Higher-Dimensional Manipulation? (so since he exists 1 dimension above the rest he can just manipulate them at will)

If it's the former then i'd say yes it scales.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Okay, I'm going to be very blunt right now. And I mean no offense to anyone.

We are so far up our own over-convoluted asses that it's honestly silly. This should honestly be simple, but now we're making yet another thing far more convoluted than it should be (but what else is new). You have 4-D power? Your abilities should work on a 4-D level unless proven otherwise. That's it. That's all it should be.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I agree with Saik.

A Low 2-C reality warper could be nigh-omnipotent from our perspective, that doesn't mean it would be able to affect another being on its level to the same extent.

For example, say that character X views the entire cosmology up to 8-D as a book, and can edit it as they please.

Does it make sense to assume that they can do the same to a being that exists on the same level as them?

I disagree with Cal due to this. Let'd give annoying dog as an exemple, all of it's hax work only because of everything being a dimension lower than him.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That's an exception rather than a rule.