Regarding Chara's Tiering.

[Lina_Shields]

For a higher tier character like Beyonder and the Chaos King, not being omnipresent would not even matter at that point; they would view the existence of Chara as a single point or even less. Right now however, Undertale only involves the 3D and 4D only (maybe 5d if we're referring to save data).

Psycho mantis's feat comparison to Chara is too big of a difference in sheer scale to really compare imo.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

True about Psycho Mantis, but it would still be only 2-A for Chara to affect EVERY timeline in Undertale. Unless for course everyone else agrees that

Save data = 5th Dimension in Undertale

Well anyway, it was nice debating with you.

 

[Lina_Shields]

True about Psycho Mantis, but it would still be only 2-A for Chara to affect EVERY timeline in Undertale. Unless for course everyone else agrees that Save data = 5th Dimension in Undertale

Chara in 2-A seems fine to me. I was just referring to save data because all of the possible actions (I mean every action) that you can make in that game is involves arranging the data in a different way (involving factorial to solve the number of ways the number the game data can be arranged; this also involves Flowey's astronomical number of resets that he did). This might not involve probability at all, but maybe it does, considering the choices that you can make at any moment in the game at any time.

Or I could just say Chara didn't actually need your soul in the game and was just manipulating you instead, just like how he manipulated Asriel. He DID blast away your entire game (infinite universes) without the seven souls (or your soul) after all!

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Chara in 2-A seems fine to me. I was just referring to save data because all of the possible actions (I mean every action) that you can make in that game is involves arranging the data in a different way (involving factorial to solve the number of ways the number the game data can be arranged; this also involves Flowey's astronomical number of resets that he did). This might not involve probability at all, but maybe it does, considering the choices that you can make at any moment in the game at any time.

Or I could just say Chara didn't actually need your soul in the game and was just manipulating you instead, just like how he manipulated Asriel. He DID blast away your entire game (infinite universes) without the seven souls (or your soul) after all!

True, but Chara DID need your SOUL in order to fix the game and affect the other timelines. As Chara doesn't do anything but wait until you do so.

 

[Lina_Shields]

That is what I would have thought first, but when I think about it, did Chara REALLY need it? I was always suspicious of Chara's reasoning that she needed your soul to reset everything.

This may be a logical fallacy but I assume for a godlike being, if you destroy something, you should be able to recreate it.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Maybe, but it's weird that Chara seems so adamant in wanting your SOUL, obviously, they would have ditched the player the minute they had enough power to do it themselves. As Chara ditches/kills any dead weight that's useless to them (cough Flowey cough). They probably only destroyed the Genocide timeline/s and moved on to the others after obtaining the Player's SOUL, at least that's my take on it.

 

[Sally_Raven]

how many dimentions are there in undertale? why only 4D?

every save is a 3D point that grants access to a 4D timeline. there is an infinite amount of possible timelines since one could create changing minor actions and reloading, all of these are a part of a multiverse that is reset (5D) in the regular resets, and all possible resets are erased when a true reset is done. the regular resets are another layer between a true reset and regular timelines. if the resets that are reset in a true reset are indeed infinite, they grant an editional layer of infinity. it might be important that flowey has his knowledge retained in a regular reset but not in a true reset, which could be easily esplained by another dimentional layer, a simpler explenation than an introduction of memory manipulation. every creature that could survive a true reset should have a 6D existance, although not a matching destructive capacity. since a true reset is eradicating any reset-verse that had occured, with a potential infinity of those, it should be, if i understand tiering correctly, a high 2-A feat. this should be the capacity of both chara and full powered asriel, but probobally not necesseraly photoshop flowey. it is clear that asriel was in the process of starting a true reset but less clear flowey could do it without frisks SOUL.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

It is obvious that Flowey existence should be, at the very least. After a couple of humans fell in the underground. But even then. I don't really think it would make such a big deal of Frisk arriving in the Underground. Although there is the possibility of the other humans simply were incapable of override Flowey's determination. But honestly. That seems unlikely at least for me.

That's what i'm trying to get. Flowey, even if he is well versed and don't talk without knowing. Isn't incapable of doing miscalculation. He already did one with Chara, and couldn't even expect the reaction of the Souls (Which also adds more to the first point. If Flowey knew some of those souls how he didn't expect that?) So it's not impossible for him to be wrong about Chara being completly incapable of surpass him. Specially because, again, he already misjudged Chara.

A couple, yes. Doubtfully after all of them. You also have to remember that Flowey's Determination is considerably high, and Frisk is a very special human. It's unlikely anyone beforehand could have overwritten his control.
He misjudged Chara's intentions, not Chara themself. He also mentioned that Frisk and Chara were the two individuals he could never predict. This does not mean he could not predict the power of the human SOUL, which he was well acquainted with; simply that he was unable to judge the course of action the two would take, such as Frisk focusing on calling for help instead of directly fighting back.

Frisk is a very special human for what she ended up be. Yes. Certanly she is different since she could outlast every other human that came to the Underground. With that said. I don't remember Vanilla Flowey's determination be "considerably high" compared to any other human. In fact, again, i don't remember Flowey talking about the human souls as anything more than objects. Again, i honestly don't think he knew any of those kids personally. It's just seems off. And why he knows so much about souls could be because, after all, he is still Asriel and Asriel was fused with Chara for a little time.

That's debatable (Well. Duh, that's why we are debating it) Since again, as you said, both Frisk and Chara were the two individuals he could never predict. But again, this just adds more to what i've said before. Flowey doesn't really have any way to know how strong Chara would end up being. Since the only experience he had in the matter was his own, the one of a souless being. That's why i'm saying that the fact that Flowey says "I'm going to be stronger than you" doesn't inmediatly disregard any possibility of Chara being stronger than he thought. Which is the objective of this debate.

Also. Regarding the human souls. You should remember that Fris didn't call for help on his own, at least at the end. Flowey himself taunted him even when he knew that the souls already help him before, and if we assume that Flowey knew some of those souls. He should know very well that they could rebel against him. That's also another reason for why i see unlikely that he knew any of those humans before hand. There is also the fact that Flowey never mention these encounters, even when, at least at first, they should be somehow important for him. Since the humans would be the only beings who could remember him and have determination. At least the very first human he encountered should be noted.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Post-Chara vs full power Asriel is debatable, but I have my suspicion that even at full power, Asriel would not be able to survive a true reset. Since Asriel and Flowey are same-dimensional beings (2-A), it stands that if Flowey can't tank a true reset, Asriel shouldn't tank a true reset as well. Frisk in the true pacifist route was easily 2-A in the fight with Asriel due to Frisk even having a chance of survivng his attacks (full power Asriel should be almost infinite times stronger than Asriel). Even if Asriel full power was holding back terribly, he would still be infinite times stronger. This also means that if you perform a true reset in the game, Asriel would be wiped out completely due to same AP.

If Chara is a manifestation of the player itself, that would bump Chara's power even higher, as this implies that Chara is basically a 3-D human viewing the game of Undertale as a 2-D form. This means that Chara vs Undertale is equivalent to a person vs a drawing. This is probably the reason why you are unable to fight Chara in the first place, even before he took your soul.

TL;DR: Asriel murders Frisk regardless if Asriel is in a higher dimension. The fact that he did not means he's only up to infinite times stronger.

TL;DR 2: Chara = Annoying Dog

 

[Sally_Raven]

flowey was surprised by the strength of frisks soul and their determination when frisk repeatedly returned after being killed by him. he outright said he could never predict chara. why would he be able to predict the strength of frisks soul under charas control?

even if he could, his sentence is quite ambiguous. it refers to a way to become stronger than chara and their stolen soul. as flowey wants to cooperate, it is possible that he is talking about a way for chara to become more powerful after gaining the souls, which would definitely be more powerful. the plan was for them to cooperate, which would include charas already existing strength. it is also impossible to tell if flowey intended to imply he could be stronger than charas full potential, since he is talking about chara regardless of time.

also, i do not agree that asriel would be barred from being in another dimention because he did not kill frisk for two reasons: one, just being in a higher dimention does not mean one automatically has free reign in it and its derivatives. a charachter could have limited access to the other dimentions, for example. people are 3D, but if we cannot just draw a 30 meter tall drawing without aid, even though it is placed on a 2D plain. two, we have no idea where determination is coming from. it could also be a higher dimentional element, held by frisk. during this fight determination not only does not need time to work, it no longer need the save files that we thought it did.

unless i missunderstand the term same-dimentional beings, how can asriel be one? he is fighting outside time and space which he destroyed without entering a new universe. does it not prove that he exists one dimention above the 4D timelines he destroyed?

i do agree that anyone manipulating code or core aspects of the game has to affect one level higher than asriel though, since the fight was bound to RPG logic.

 

[Lina_Shields]

So I have asked some of the people back in the undertale wiki, and they have said that the file addition after the genocide route is canon.

This might answer where Chara stands.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

..It's not tho. asking some random people if they think something is canon doesn't make it more canon.

There is no reaction form the characters about it, the game doesn't even notice when the file is deleted. There is snark comment from Toby or anything. It's just a technical file that people thinks is a "canon" way to deal with Chara.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

What "file addtion" are you talking about? i do not comprehend.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

When Chara takes your SOUL in Genocide, a file is created in the game's files. It is what countain your "deal" with Chara. AKA as long as it is here it you are playing "Soulless" and you get bad ending in Pacifist.

Although in some versions of the game (Either the steam or Website version idk anymore) you can't just delete the file you need to uses an extern program to delete Genocide.

 

[Squid_peanut]

I'm not sure if this has been said yet but since Omega Flowey with six souls stops Frisk from save/reseting which requires that Flowey has more soul power than Frisk, Frisk and Chara share a soul so their soul power is equal, Omega Flowey cannot be weeker than Chara. on top of that, Asriel has even more power and cannot be harmed by Frisk at maximum determination, being infinitely beyond them according to his stats. Also the file I think should honestly be not considered is that Frisk is selling Chara the soul, not "Chara is binding the soul to them under their own power alone"

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

I'm not sure if this has been said yet but since Omega Flowey with six souls stops Frisk from save/reseting which requires that Flowey has more soul power than Frisk, Frisk and Chara share a soul so their soul power is equal, Omega Flowey cannot be weeker than Chara. on top of that, Asriel has even more power and cannot be harmed by Frisk at maximum determination, being infinitely beyond them according to his stats. Also the file I think should honestly be not considered is that Frisk is selling Chara the soul, not "Chara is binding the soul to them under their own power alone"

Determination isn't a statical thing. It can go up or down depending on how determined the user is. Clear example of this is that neutral Frisk is completly incapable of surpass Flowey's determination with the six souls. Meanwhile pacifist Frisk (Who has more reasons to fight and to stay determined) was capable of holding her own against a fraction of Asriel's power and negate Asriel from do a true reset. So the argument of "Omega Flowey has six souls. Therefore he's stronger/more determined" Doesn't really make a lot of sense. Also. Note that Chara erased the world before the whole deal with the soul.

And the file has nothing to do with that. Far as i remember the file name is "World erased" And it's just a flag.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well Chara after the deal with the Player has no feats, as the world is reset right after that, and we only see Chara doing the same thing as before. We don't even know if Chara's strength increased.

 

[Squid_peanut]

Determination isn't a statical thing. It can go up or down depending on how determined the user is. Clear example of this is that neutral Frisk is completly incapable of surpass Flowey's determination with the six souls. Meanwhile pacifist Frisk (Who has more reasons to fight and to stay determined) was capable of holding her own against a fraction of Asriel's power and negate Asriel from do a true reset. So the argument of "Omega Flowey has six souls. Therefore he's stronger/more determined" Doesn't really make a lot of sense. Also. Note that Chara erased the world before the whole deal with the soul.

And the file has nothing to do with that. Far as i remember the file name is "World erased" And it's just a flag

Flowey can't save/load after Frisk/Chara shows up because they are more determined than him, he says so himself. when Flowey aquires six souls he can save/load again and Frisk can't, one can only assume that this is because Omega Flowey has more determination than either Frisk or Chara since they share a soul, and with it, a possible maximum. the same thing happens when you fight Asriel, but he's stronger as even max determination Frisk can't do much of anything. so it doesn't make any sence to assume that more souls don't equal more power/determination because every single time, it does. and since Chara could erase "the world" they are comparable to Omega Flowey, which is why Frisk can hurt them and why we have them as the same tier. The reason for the deal is so that Chara awakens even if 20 LOVE isn't obtained

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Just a random aside I thought I'd point out about Determination: it still functions even if someone else is more Determined than you. As in, you can still get stat buffs and such. However, what someone else having more Determination than you DOES do is negate all time based benefits based around it (i.e. the ability to SAVE and LOAD). This is why Frisk could still take hits and such from God Flowey, but lost all other Determination-based abilities once he came into existence.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Determination isn't a statical thing. It can go up or down depending on how determined the user is. Clear example of this is that neutral Frisk is completly incapable of surpass Flowey's determination with the six souls. Meanwhile pacifist Frisk (Who has more reasons to fight and to stay determined) was capable of holding her own against a fraction of Asriel's power and negate Asriel from do a true reset. So the argument of "Omega Flowey has six souls. Therefore he's stronger/more determined" Doesn't really make a lot of sense. Also. Note that Chara erased the world before the whole deal with the soul.
And the file has nothing to do with that. Far as i remember the file name is "World erased" And it's just a flag

Flowey can't save/load after Frisk/Chara shows up because they are more determined than him, he says so himself. when Flowey aquires six souls he can save/load again and Frisk can't, one can only assume that this is because Omega Flowey has more determination than either Frisk or Chara since they share a soul, and with it, a possible maximum. the same thing happens when you fight Asriel, but he's stronger as even max determination Frisk can't do much of anything. so it doesn't make any sence to assume that more souls don't equal more power/determination because every single time, it does. and since Chara could erase "the world" they are comparable to Omega Flowey, which is why Frisk can hurt them and why we have them as the same tier. The reason for the deal is so that Chara awakens even if 20 LOVE isn't obtained

You don't seem to read what i'm saying. Determination, once more, isn't statical. One being can have more or less depending on the circunstances. The prime example of this is Frisk who in some scenarios isn't capable of fighting par against Photoshop Flowey but in others is the only being capable of stopping Asriel from resetting the timeline. You can't simply ignore this and say that "He has more souls. Therefore he is more powerful" without even look further because, again, Frisk with only one soul prevented Asriel from resetting the timeline.. Also, and i'm getting really tired of this, only two beings destroyed the world, Asriel and Chara. Flowey only crashes the game, which is never stated to be equal as destroying the world and there is evidence that contradicts the statement that Flowey erased the world the same way as Chara and Asriel were doing it.

 

[Talonmask]

Determination isn't a statical thing. It can go up or down depending on how determined the user is. Clear example of this is that neutral Frisk is completly incapable of surpass Flowey's determination with the six souls. Meanwhile pacifist Frisk (Who has more reasons to fight and to stay determined) was capable of holding her own against a fraction of Asriel's power and negate Asriel from do a true reset. So the argument of "Omega Flowey has six souls. Therefore he's stronger/more determined" Doesn't really make a lot of sense. Also. Note that Chara erased the world before the whole deal with the soul.
And the file has nothing to do with that. Far as i remember the file name is "World erased" And it's just a flag

Flowey can't save/load after Frisk/Chara shows up because they are more determined than him, he says so himself. when Flowey aquires six souls he can save/load again and Frisk can't, one can only assume that this is because Omega Flowey has more determination than either Frisk or Chara since they share a soul, and with it, a possible maximum. the same thing happens when you fight Asriel, but he's stronger as even max determination Frisk can't do much of anything. so it doesn't make any sence to assume that more souls don't equal more power/determination because every single time, it does. and since Chara could erase "the world" they are comparable to Omega Flowey, which is why Frisk can hurt them and why we have them as the same tier. The reason for the deal is so that Chara awakens even if 20 LOVE isn't obtained

You don't seem to read what i'm saying. Determination, once more, isn't statical. One being can have more or less depending on the circunstances. The prime example of this is Frisk who in some scenarios isn't capable of fighting par against Photoshop Flowey but in others is the only being capable of stopping Asriel from resetting the timeline. You can't simply ignore this and say that "He has more souls. Therefore he is more powerful" without even look further because, again, Frisk with only one soul prevented Asriel from resetting the timeline.. Also, and i'm getting really tired of this, only two beings destroyed the world, Asriel and Chara. Flowey only crashes the game, which is never stated to be equal as destroying the world and there is evidence that contradicts the statement that Flowey erased the world the same way as Chara and Asriel were doing it.

Yes, but Chara is feeding off of Genocide Frisk, whom you could argue has less determination than Pacifist Frisk.

Chara's power only equates to one soul and will always equate to that. Flowey has six souls, whether or not they match the determination of Frisk's in Genocide is debatable but there is nothing suggesting that they don't in-game wise, considering they allowed Flowey to surpass Frisk's determination.

 

[KennethTL]

I agree that chara should be upgraded, but chara is in no way stronger than asriel (i dont know about photoshop flowey). Asriel was holding back so much against frisk, even when using a fraction of his real power. Once asriel reached full power, frisk could absolutely do nothing, not even move.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Determination isn't a statical thing. It can go up or down depending on how determined the user is. Clear example of this is that neutral Frisk is completly incapable of surpass Flowey's determination with the six souls. Meanwhile pacifist Frisk (Who has more reasons to fight and to stay determined) was capable of holding her own against a fraction of Asriel's power and negate Asriel from do a true reset. So the argument of "Omega Flowey has six souls. Therefore he's stronger/more determined" Doesn't really make a lot of sense. Also. Note that Chara erased the world before the whole deal with the soul.
And the file has nothing to do with that. Far as i remember the file name is "World erased" And it's just a flag

Flowey can't save/load after Frisk/Chara shows up because they are more determined than him, he says so himself. when Flowey aquires six souls he can save/load again and Frisk can't, one can only assume that this is because Omega Flowey has more determination than either Frisk or Chara since they share a soul, and with it, a possible maximum. the same thing happens when you fight Asriel, but he's stronger as even max determination Frisk can't do much of anything. so it doesn't make any sence to assume that more souls don't equal more power/determination because every single time, it does. and since Chara could erase "the world" they are comparable to Omega Flowey, which is why Frisk can hurt them and why we have them as the same tier. The reason for the deal is so that Chara awakens even if 20 LOVE isn't obtained

You don't seem to read what i'm saying. Determination, once more, isn't statical. One being can have more or less depending on the circunstances. The prime example of this is Frisk who in some scenarios isn't capable of fighting par against Photoshop Flowey but in others is the only being capable of stopping Asriel from resetting the timeline. You can't simply ignore this and say that "He has more souls. Therefore he is more powerful" without even look further because, again, Frisk with only one soul prevented Asriel from resetting the timeline.. Also, and i'm getting really tired of this, only two beings destroyed the world, Asriel and Chara. Flowey only crashes the game, which is never stated to be equal as destroying the world and there is evidence that contradicts the statement that Flowey erased the world the same way as Chara and Asriel were doing it.

Yes, but Chara is feeding off of Genocide Frisk, whom you could argue has less determination than Pacifist Frisk.
Chara's power only equates to one soul and will always equate to that. Flowey has six souls, whether or not they match the determination of Frisk's in Genocide is debatable but there is nothing suggesting that they don't in-game wise, considering they allowed Flowey to surpass Frisk's determination.

Actually no. There is some things that actually suggets that Genocide requires a lot of Determination. The first and greatest example of this is the fact that, meanwhile Frisk in order to stay determined needs a reason or something that fills him (Even if are really little things) Chara needs nothing. This really make me question why people thinks that Chara has less determination that even neutral Frisk.

Chara's power, even without a soul. Was enough to erase the world. And even ignoring that. The fact that Chara only has one soul also doesn't inmediatly means she will always be weaker. That's a really strange case of ABC logic. Also, again, Flowey's determination surpass Frisk determination, yes, but you need to see the bigger picture. Frisk was probably in one of the most hopeless situation of the game. And it was certanly not her peak. So saying that because Flowey in one instance was capable of surpass Frisk determination doesn't mean he will ALWAYS surpass Frisk determination. As this is debunked in the pacifist run. Unless you want to debate that Omega Flowey > Pacifist Frisk's determination.

 

[Promestein]

Don't quote massive walls of text, please.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

But what exactly is the proof that Omega Flowey is weaker than Chara? As far as I know, none. Yes, Flowey did less damage but he wasn't intent on destruction at all.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

-Promestein.

Okay, then.

-KennethTL

I'm not trying to put Chara at the same level as Asriel, if that helps.

-Saikou

First and most important. This isn't about proving that Omega Flowey is weaker more than it is intended to proof that Chara is stronger (tho it sounds like the same) And no, Flowey wasn't really intended to do less damage. The fact that he was toying with Frisk doesn't mean that he didn't want to destroy the world. And even then, you can't argue that his stronger when Chara still has better in-screen feats. While Flowey only has one statement (which could be very well a misjudge from Flowey's part) that put him above Chara.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

He wasn't intend on destroying the world, he wanted to becomes the god of it. Again, it isn't clear if the crash is game desctruction or not, it is possible both but as I said, Flowey didn't want to destroy the world like Chara did. And that statement is all we have, to compare the two in power other than feats, yet feats can be powerscaled, especially since Flowey wasn't serious in the fight.

 

[Talonmask]

Actually no. There is some things that actually suggets that Genocide requires a lot of Determination. The first and greatest example of this is the fact that, meanwhile Frisk in order to stay determined needs a reason or something that fills him (Even if are really little things) Chara needs nothing. This really make me question why people thinks that Chara has less determination that even neutral Frisk.

Chara's power, even without a soul. Was enough to erase the world. And even ignoring that. The fact that Chara only has one soul also doesn't inmediatly means she will always be weaker. That's a really strange case of ABC logic. Also, again, Flowey's determination surpass Frisk determination, yes, but you need to see the bigger picture. Frisk was probably in one of the most hopeless situation of the game. And it was certanly not her peak. So saying that because Flowey in one instance was capable of surpass Frisk determination doesn't mean he will ALWAYS surpass Frisk determination. As this is debunked in the pacifist run. Unless you want to debate that Omega Flowey > Pacifist Frisk's determination.

Chara specifically mentions that their determination was YOURS, they fed off of you the entire game in order to be able to do what they did at the end of the game, Chara had was using your soul.

I'm not arguing the they will always be weaker, what I am saying is that the level of determination you encounter both Omega Flowey and Chara at as Frisk should be relatively similar considering that you encounter both of them right after Asgore. And since Chara feeds off Frisk's determination, and Omega Flowey was superior to Frisk at that point in the game, they are likely superior to Chara as well.

You can't argue Pacifist Frisk's determination preventing Asriel's reset because that's not Chara, since Chara can only use souls that are akin to theirs and thus cannot be equated to Pacifist determination.

 

[Squid_peanut]

You don't seem to read what i'm saying. Determination, once more, isn't statical. One being can have more or less depending on the circunstances. The prime example of this is Frisk who in some scenarios isn't capable of fighting par against Photoshop Flowey but in others is the only being capable of stopping Asriel from resetting the timeline. You can't simply ignore this and say that "He has more souls. Therefore he is more powerful" without even look further because, again, Frisk with only one soul prevented Asriel from resetting the timeline.. Also, and i'm getting really tired of this, only two beings destroyed the world, Asriel and Chara. Flowey only crashes the game, which is never stated to be equal as destroying the world and there is evidence that contradicts the statement that Flowey erased the world the same way as Chara and Asriel were doing it.

it's not a factof it being statistical, it's a case of comparaison and consistency. if Omega Flowey can stop Frisk from save/loading that means his maximum potential MUST be higher then theirs as he LITTERALLY has more determination to work with, this is a fact because we know what determination can do and we know what happens when someone is usurped as most total determination possible. with Asriel it could very well be a case of Frisk putting everything they have into refusing to die, there is no ill intent here and even if there was, Frisk cannot save/load with Asriel around which again, literally means that Asriel must have a higher maximum of determination. As for Flowey never destroying the world, yes he does, why do you think that you also fight him in a lifeless abyss, and how else could he get 9999 LV?

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

-Talonmask

1.-Yes, yes, and yes. I didn't argue agains that.

2.-You are ignoring the context, again. Both fights happen after Asgore. But they don't have the same context. Neutral run Frisk isn't the same as Genocide run Chara. Therefore first we need to analize the situation of both:

A) Frisk was in a really hopeless moment. Asgore just died in front of her eyes, practically destroying every possibility of she escaping the Underground. Meanwhile Flowey just became a godlike being and was toying with them a long time, in an almost endless sadistic game. even then, Frisk somehow manages to resist, more or less.

B) Chara just accomplish their greatest goal. Killed almost everything in the underground. Plus, the fact that again, Chara from the get got had an incredibly high level of Determination that didn't even need of conventional SAVE points to work.

Honestly they are nowhere similar. How, and i seriously ask how can neutral Frisk have more (or even be similar) levels of determination as Gencide Chara

3.-I'm not saying that Chara could prevent Asriel from reset. You are misundersteanding. I'm using Frisk as an example that determination is NOT linear. And depends on how much filled with it you are.

 

[Talonmask]

-Talonmask
1.-Yes, yes, and yes. I didn't argue agains that.

2.-You are ignoring the context, again. Both fights happen after Asgore. But they don't have the same context. Neutral run Frisk isn't the same as Genocide run Chara. Therefore first we need to analize the situation of both:

A) Frisk was in a really hopeless moment. Asgore just died in front of her eyes, practically destroying every possibility of she escaping the Underground. Meanwhile Flowey just became a godlike being and was toying with them a long time, in an almost endless sadistic game. even then, Frisk somehow manages to resist, more or less.

B) Chara just accomplish their greatest goal. Killed almost everything in the underground. Plus, the fact that again, Chara from the get got had an incredibly high level of Determination that didn't even need of conventional SAVE points to work.

Honestly they are nowhere similar. How, and i seriously ask how can neutral Frisk have more (or even be similar) levels of determination as Gencide Chara

3.-I'm not saying that Chara could prevent Asriel from reset. You are misundersteanding. I'm using Frisk as an example that determination is NOT linear. And depends on how much filled with it

I'm not disregarding context, I'm saying that you can't 100% seperate the two because they are both Frisk, it's Frisk's determination powering Chara, not their own.

Frisk was technically in a helpless moment during the fight with Asriel, seeing as they weren't capable of doing anything and their existence was slowing fading away with each death, yet they still managed to pull through, did they not?

I'm stating that the situation is irrelevant, because Frisk stays determined regardless of what situation they are in.

I'm not misunderstanding anything, I'm simply rejecting the idea that the two can be compared at all since Pacifist Frisk goes beyond the storyline length of Genocide, meaning Frisk had more time to gain determination.

I'm not misunderstanding anything, I'm just rejecting the notion that for some reason one is better than the other when they are both technically using the same power makes no sense.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

As i said before. Determination is not static. Therefore i don't understeand why you are determined to use concepts like "Frisk's determination (Like implying that Frisk's has only one stable level of determination) but les start:

1.-You are, still, disregarding the context of the fight. Yes. The fight against Asriel seemed even worse. But you are not taking in count what happend before and during the fight. Inmediatly before the battle Frisk was helped by all her friends, telling her to not give up and it was back-up by almost the entire Underground. In a situation LEAGUE above what happen in the neutral run, where Asgore dies, leaving them without hope in the Underground which they left without a king and without hope. Honestly you don't need to be a nobel to see this, the atmosphere in both fights is way different. (Seriously, compare Hopes and Dreams vs Your Best Nightmare to see the difference in the atmosphere of both fights)

2.-Again, you really don't seem to understeand how determination works. Determination it's NOT static. It can go up and down depending on the situation. Yes, Frisk stayed determined. But that doesn't that her determination after all her friends cheered her is the same as she was thinking about Jerry eating cheese.

3.-Yes. You are still misundersteanding. Honestly what i don't know is HOW. Since it stated before that i wasn't compared anyone to Pacifist Frisk, i was using pacifist Frisk as an example of how determination can go up and down. Since, according to your logic, Pacifist Frisk should equal Neutral Frisk because of the time.

4.-What is so hard to comprehend about the fact that Determination is not static? I mean, your whole argument is "It's Frisk determination, therefore it could NOT be higher than Flowey's" Which is a lie because we see an instance where Frisk determination CAN go higher than Flowey's determination. Therefore Frisk determination doesn't really have a level to say that they will always be below Flowey.

 

[Squid_peanut]

As i said before. Determination is not static. Therefore i don't understeand why you are determined to use concepts like "Frisk's determination (Like implying that Frisk's has only one stable level of determination) but les start:
1.-You are, still, disregarding the context of the fight. Yes. The fight against Asriel seemed even worse. But you are not taking in count what happend before and during the fight. Inmediatly before the battle Frisk was helped by all her friends, telling her to not give up and it was back-up by almost the entire Underground. In a situation LEAGUE above what happen in the neutral run, where Asgore dies, leaving them without hope in the Underground which they left without a king and without hope. Honestly you don't need to be a nobel to see this, the atmosphere in both fights is way different. (Seriously, compare Hopes and Dreams vs Your Best Nightmare to see the difference in the atmosphere of both fights)

2.-Again, you really don't seem to understeand how determination works. Determination it's NOT static. It can go up and down depending on the situation. Yes, Frisk stayed determined. But that doesn't that her determination after all her friends cheered her is the same as she was thinking about Jerry eating cheese.

3.-Yes. You are still misundersteanding. Honestly what i don't know is HOW. Since it stated before that i wasn't compared anyone to Pacifist Frisk, i was using pacifist Frisk as an example of how determination can go up and down. Since, according to your logic, Pacifist Frisk should equal Neutral Frisk because of the time.

4.-What is so hard to comprehend about the fact that Determination is not static? I mean, your whole argument is "It's Frisk determination, therefore it could NOT be higher than Flowey's" Which is a lie because we see an instance where Frisk determination CAN go higher than Flowey's determination. Therefore Frisk determination doesn't really have a level to say that they will always be below Flowey.

1) First, Frisk is by no means a "normal" individual, but one thing for sure is that they are quick to become filled with determination by things, saying Asgore's death (even in timelines where they were the cause for it) would fill them with grief and lower determination is super speculatory. There is nothing to say just how determined Frisk is when fighting Omega Flowey, of course this wouldn't be max determination, but it is definately higher determination than any moment prior. otherwise, Frisk wouldn't be able to stand up to a multiversal threat at all.

2)determination varies, yes, but maximum determination does not. Max determination Frisk is Frisk at their peek and there is no way presented for this to raise, also this stuff is totally quantifiable and limited, otherwise why would you need seven human souls to break the barrior or why would a large quantity of monster souls be equatible to one human soul? while Chara can manifest way more determination offensively than Frisk can, they still share the same soul which would have the same amount of soul power, which would have the same maximum determination amount, which would make Frisk's peak Chara's hypothetical peak as well.

3) I'm equating pacifist and neutral because they are still at the end of the day the same person, and have the same Maximum determination possible, so someone who has enough determination potential to surpass one Frisk, has enough determination potencial to surpass any Frisk because they all have the same soul. additionally, I know that it is maximum determination potential and not current determination levels because Flowey was able to kill the underground's populous, something that would require achiving High determination on par with late game Frisk to defeat later enemies, however literal begining of the game Frisk aquires the save/load ability with Flowey unable to do anything even given his better mastery of determination. this then suggests that Save/Load is given to the individual with the highest determination potencial as opposed to the highest instantaious determination.

4) Frisk surpassed Flowey only by appealing to the power source he was using and convincing it to revolt, max determination Frisk would Probably fare better, but Flowey still has the save states which makes killing him without the souls revolting pretty imposible, that's the reason chara could never beat Omega Flowey, he would have save/load and Chara wouldn't, nor would chara be williing to or even capable of convincing the souls to revolt, making victory literally impossible for Chara.

 

[Talonmask]

As i said before. Determination is not static. Therefore i don't understeand why you are determined to use concepts like "Frisk's determination (Like implying that Frisk's has only one stable level of determination) but les start:
1.-You are, still, disregarding the context of the fight. Yes. The fight against Asriel seemed even worse. But you are not taking in count what happend before and during the fight. Inmediatly before the battle Frisk was helped by all her friends, telling her to not give up and it was back-up by almost the entire Underground. In a situation LEAGUE above what happen in the neutral run, where Asgore dies, leaving them without hope in the Underground which they left without a king and without hope. Honestly you don't need to be a nobel to see this, the atmosphere in both fights is way different. (Seriously, compare Hopes and Dreams vs Your Best Nightmare to see the difference in the atmosphere of both fights)

2.-Again, you really don't seem to understeand how determination works. Determination it's NOT static. It can go up and down depending on the situation. Yes, Frisk stayed determined. But that doesn't that her determination after all her friends cheered her is the same as she was thinking about Jerry eating cheese.

3.-Yes. You are still misundersteanding. Honestly what i don't know is HOW. Since it stated before that i wasn't compared anyone to Pacifist Frisk, i was using pacifist Frisk as an example of how determination can go up and down. Since, according to your logic, Pacifist Frisk should equal Neutral Frisk because of the time.

4.-What is so hard to comprehend about the fact that Determination is not static? I mean, your whole argument is "It's Frisk determination, therefore it could NOT be higher than Flowey's" Which is a lie because we see an instance where Frisk determination CAN go higher than Flowey's determination. Therefore Frisk determination doesn't really have a level to say that they will always be below Flowey.

What part of my argument did I freaking say it was static? Stop equating to that because never once did I say that, stop putting stuff in my mouth because it's getting annoying.

What I'm saying is that the determination levels of Frisk should be relatively even in both routes based on the fact that there is no defined difference between their determination levels, hence why I base my argument that Omega Flowey surpassing Frisk's determination is by extension surpassing Chara. That is not static, that's me basing determination levels based on the point of the game, which, if you look at Frisk's tiering, that's what is happening.

Both reach an equal amount of points in the game and there's so there's no reason to assume Frisk's determination was any higher than it was at that point.

Chara can't be better than Omega Flowey since Frisk's determination was less than his in Neutral route and Chara = Frisk, that's not hard to understand, is it?

You can't say Frisk's determination in the Genocide route would be higher than Omega Flowey's in Neutral or Pacifist when they don't meet each other in that route so there's no way to freaking prove that.

In a god damn loop.

 

[Sally_Raven]

It is not certain at all that one human soul can not surpass anothers maximal determination. regarding the need for seven souls, there could be other reasons for their need.

it is known that an identical number of wizards was used to seal the underground, and it could have something to do with that fact, having each soul match a wizard. There might be a need for seven sources of power, in addition to the specific streangh needed. Identical maximal determination is a bad explenation anyway, since each soul may not be able to extract its maximal amount. If in order to brake the barrier one needs seven soul at their maximum power, niether Flowey nor the souls are likely to be able to do it, since none of them are nearly as determined as Frisk.

Anyway, the only point in which chara could contend with asriel is post ascention, and this is because she survives the true reset. I think asriel and her should be High 2-A, but this is besides the point. The fact that she can survive it should put her on asriels level, and if flowey is powerscaled too (which is doubtful), than have him powerscaled.

Also, just before her ascention, Chara would outright refuse your command if you tell them not to destroy the world. She counters the effects of a higher dimentional being and destroyes the world against their will. It shouls amount to something, should it not

 

[Lina_Shields]

@Sally: For the last point, possibly. It could all be just a part of the game, but her directly talking to you after the genocide route becomes mindboggling when you realize that Chara may have corrupted your entire save data. How this affects God Flowey and Asriel I have no idea, but yea.

 

[Squid_peanut]

It is not certain at all that one human soul can not surpass anothers maximal determination. regarding the need for seven souls, there could be other reasons for their need.
it is known that an identical number of wizards was used to seal the underground, and it could have something to do with that fact, having each soul match a wizard. There might be a need for seven sources of power, in addition to the specific streangh needed. Identical maximal determination is a bad explenation anyway, since each soul may not be able to extract its maximal amount. If in order to brake the barrier one needs seven soul at their maximum power, niether Flowey nor the souls are likely to be able to do it, since none of them are nearly as determined as Frisk.

Anyway, the only point in which chara could contend with asriel is post ascention, and this is because she survives the true reset. I think asriel and her should be High 2-A, but this is besides the point. The fact that she can survive it should put her on asriels level, and if flowey is powerscaled too (which is doubtful), than have him powerscaled.

Also, just before her ascention, Chara would outright refuse your command if you tell them not to destroy the world. She counters the effects of a higher dimentional being and destroyes the world against their will. It shouls amount to something, should it not

1) that could be true, however doing so would assume somewhat of a no limits fallacy since as far as we can tell, Frisk was at their maximum during the asriel fight. and as I have said many times, Frisk's soul based maximum is chara's soul based maximum.

2) surviving a true reset only puts Chara on Frisk's level which they sort of are allready, also I highly doubt that Frisk or chara would be at all able to true reset with either Omega Flowey or Asriel around as those two both surpass Frisk's determination and take control of the timelines themselves. it's like saying if I push captain america off of a cliff, he'll die, ignoring the fact that it would require you trying to push captain america while he's trying to stop that from happening.

3) the person saying no is Frisk, the "player" for all intensive purposes is Chara and Frisk combined. all the not listening proves is that 20 lv gives Chara full control over the body instead of being merged with Frisk about it, so no they are not refusing the will of a higher dimensional being, they are just being annoyed by Frisk

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Sorry for not answering. I was not feeling up to it these days. Anyway. I don't want to do a long post (Tho i will probably will) so lets start

-Squid Peanunt

1) Honestly don't see where the speculative parts from Asgore comes up. You could say that their Determination get REALLY high in a real life/death situation. But even then i don't see how, in a scenario so grimm like Asgore's death. Granted it, there is some scenarios where Frisk herself kill Asgore, but even in those Asgore's SOUL is lost. Therefore any hope they had in escaping the Underground is lost with it. Let's not even start with the whole Flowey-Is-Stronger-Than-You-And-You-Are-Basically-Screwed thing. What i'm trying to say is that i don't see how Neutral Frisk's Determination could be compare to Genocide Frisk/Chara Determination, since again, Chara has so much that she basically doesn't even need to be filled, she is filled by default.

2) We don't know how the barrier was made or how it has to be broken. We only know that only seven souls can break it. With this said, i don't really see your point. Are you trying to say that, since Chara has Frisk soul, Chara will never be stronger than Frisk? Well. This is debatable, let's start with that, Souless Chara (Without making the deal) erased the World. Casually. Unless we are going to assume that either the barrier still exist in that voidless space, that Chara only erased the world under the barrier (Which would downgrade her A LOT) The barrier should have been erased with it. But, before you answer. I'm going to ensure that no strawman can be made:.

No. I'm not inferring that Souless Chara=Asriel. Asriel destroyed the barrier, yes, but most of it was show. Asriel can destroy the world with just standing there. So destroy the barrier for him it would be child's play

With that said. The point of this argument is not prove that Chara is equal to Asriel. Is to prove that Chara is stronger than Omega Flowey. And Pacifist Frisk > Omega Flowey. So, even assuming that Chara's max is Pacifist Frisk she would still be stronger than Flowey. So i don't understeand the point of saying "Chara can't be stronger than Frisk" or "Determination's limit is Pacifist Frisk"

3) I'm going to be brutal honest and harsh here:

What you are saying doesn't make any sense.

Equating Pacifist Frisk and Neutral Frisk just doesn't work. It has no sense whatsoever and it can't be done. It doesn't matter that "Determination potential" you are speaking of. The simple existence of both Asriel Dreemurr's fight and Omega Flowey's fight contradicts your statement about Determintion potential. It's not about the "potential" is about the determination you have. Here and now. If this wasn't the case. Omega Flowey even with the six souls shouldn't be able to override Frisk's Save since Frisk Determintion is enough to stop Asriel. One who has seven souls. Also, you are assuming that Flowey didn't gain any LOVE from killing the Underground. Which can also explain why Early game Frisk can override his Determination yet Flowey can still kill the Underground.

But trying to equate Pacifist Frisk and Neutral Frisk? No. Simply no. Stop.

4) Pacifist Frisk, assuming she is willing to fight (Which is contradictory. But for the sake of the argument let's say she is) would demolish Omega Flowey easily. Simply because, since Pacifist Frisk determination could stop Asriel from resetting. It could also stop Flowey (a weaker being) from Save-Reset any SAVE files. I honestly don't know how you didn't even manage to figure this out.

And look. Lets assume that Chara's determination can't override Flowey's and he can still Save-Reset. Well. I'm going to be harsh again. But this doesn't matter at all. Because the point of this post is not show that Chara can beat Omega Flowey. The point of this post is that Chara is STRONGER than Omega Flowey. There are a lot of characters that can't stop Flowey from Save and Reload but are practically stonger than him in everything else.

Let's not even start to talk about the possibility (Which is very high) Of Chara being more determined than Neutral Frisk. Effectivly stopping Flowey from Save and Reset. And no, again, i'm not even saying that Pacifist Frisk = Chara. Because there is a huge gap between Neutral Frisk and pacifist Frisk. Chara can perfectly fit in the middle of this gap and stop Flowey from do anything with the SAVE-Files.


With this said. I'm not going to answer Talonmask. At least not now. Because this post is already too large and i don't want to overcharge myself with a gigatic Wall of Text

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Man, i'm surprised this is still going. O-o

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Man, i'm surprised this is still going. O-o

Me too. Though, I have to ask, what's your take on this? Do you think should be upgraded or not? Just curious.