Redoing an old fight

[Pepsiman25th]

An old fight I did a year ago but it didn't get much fame and the profiles change overtime so its time for a rematch.

The leader of the mafia himself, Girono Giovanna! Vssss.... The elusive witch of vanity, Pandora!

Speed equal and Girono has GER otherwise pandora would yeet him.
No prior knowledge soooo who wins?

The Mafia Boss:

Vanity:

Incon:

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

So even if I think GER has a good advantage here since everything about Pandora is utterly unknown 'sides Pandora's abilities and GER's RtZ is 4D, but...

How good is GER's ability to deal with passive madness manipulation (type 3 "Being in the presence of a witch causes people to go insane resulting in them killing themselves")?

Idk, if GER is immune to this shit since RtZ, but Pandora's Madness Manip is cognition-based, so, it might screw GER greatly despite stand intangibility and RtZ since it can still think. This shit is passive and Infinite Speed isn't enough to escape Passive Abilities, you need a degree of Immeasurable speed, which GER doesn't have.

Fear Aura might also help in screwing with Giorno and GER's minds as well.

If RtZ can deal with this, then... GER just needs to tap Pandora to kill her off and trap her in a death loop.

 

[Pedonar]

So even if I think GER has a good advantage here since everything about Pandora is utterly unknown 'sides Pandora's abilities and GER's RtZ is 4D, but...

How good is GER's ability to deal with passive madness manipulation (type 3 "Being in the presence of a witch causes people to go insane resulting in them killing themselves")?

Idk, if GER is immune to this shit since RtZ, but Pandora's Madness Manip is cognition-based, so, it might screw GER greatly despite stand intangibility and RtZ since it can still think. This shit is passive and Infinite Speed isn't enough to escape Passive Abilities, you need a degree of Immeasurable speed, which GER doesn't have.

Fear Aura might also help in screwing with Giorno and GER's minds as well.

If RtZ can deal with this, then... GER just needs to tap Pandora to kill her off and trap her in a death loop.

She can resurrect herself.

 

[Arcker123]

Giorno is still a tangible physical being. If it can get past GER, than it will affect Giorno. Dunno how effective that would be because IIRC, GER can act without direct command from Giorno

 

[StekFence]

She can resurrect herself.

The death loop would also do that, it’s just she’s constantly being revived in another world, so it’s a good incap. Additionally, giorno has to simply be alive for ger to take action, as giornos ability to think doesn’t matter, since Ger can do stuff without giorno being conscious. Ger should be able to Rtz giornos suicide attempts, as giorno is just a regular guy. Judging off that, I’d say Ger should be able to win.

 

[Pepsiman25th]

bump

 

[Pepsiman25th]

bump

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Am just saying this to get things going:

Would GER be immune to Pandora's passive madness manipulation is something I feel like that needs to be addressed.

I don't think Stand Immunity towards non-stand shit covers mind shit like Madness Manip, and GER is an especially tough position if its ability to think is compromised, to say the least.

 

[StekFence]

I don't think Stand Immunity towards non-stand shit covers mind shit like Madness Manip, and GER is an especially tough position if its ability to think is compromised, to say the least.

It’s a question of can this ability interact with layered interaction Resist.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

It’s a question of can this ability interact with layered interaction Resist.

And vice versa, since a stand's layered interaction resistance has only been shown to work against normal physical stuff that can touch stuff - punches, items, anything physical that isn't a stand - and never shown any resistance or immunity to passive madness hax. If it is a coin toss, is it possible that this match ends up being an incon?

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

in short. a stalemate. Or idk. dont see her passing through ger though

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

in short. a stalemate. Or idk. dont see her passing through ger though

Is this an incon vote? And to answer your question: It doesn't matter if Pandora can touch GER, what matters is if GER's layered intangibility and RtZ can deal with passive madness manipulation - Pandora wins if her MM hax works and Giorno wins if GER can neg her madness hax and put her in a death loop.

... There isn't a good answer for either of those questions, IMO, so I vote for Incon.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

Is this an incon vote? And to answer your question: It doesn't matter if Pandora can touch GER, what matters is if GER's layered intangibility and RtZ can deal with passive madness manipulation - Pandora wins if her MM hax works and Giorno wins if GER can neg her madness hax and put her in a death loop.

... There isn't a good answer for either of those questions, IMO, so I vote for Incon.

That passive madness Manip lowkey sounds like an action to me, something meant to harm, in that case, RTZ works, giorno doesnt die. Why would Madness Manip work on a spiritual entity that is a Spirit being > another spirit? (Layered Intangibility and Non physical interaction.) Where does that notion even come from?

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

That passive madness Manip lowkey sounds like an action to me, something meant to harm, in that case, RTZ works, giorno doesnt die. Why would Madness Manip work on a spiritual entity that is a Spirit being > another spirit? (Layered Intangibility and Non physical interaction.) Where does that notion even come from?

Though speaking of what rtz can affect or not, RTZ is basically considered to be capable of rtz'ing any stand, and their abilities, which have tons of different abilities. (Guidebooks be like that.) JoJoVeller, an guidebook, has stand pages that goes from Part 3 up to Early Part 8, and its said to have ger, its RTZ ability itself, > any ability, its superior to them, above them. Some might have madness manip, but idk, ima look around ig.
[Edited]

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Why wouldn't it? Pandora's Passive Madness Manipulation is type 3 aka madness hax that makes people mad with the very act of looking at or attempting to perceive them is enough to send victims into a state of madness or terror, and in Pandora's case, the passive madness hax causes people to go insane resulting in them killing themselves.

I don't think having layered intangibility is enough to protect against it since by the very nature of type 3 madness manipulation... it doesn't require any physical touch, someone - GER or Giorno, in this case - to look Pandora and go mad and try to kill themselves. There's also Pandora's passive aura which causes fear, but it isn't really helpful.

Though speaking of what rtz can affect or not, RTZ is basically considered to be capable of rtz'ing any stand, and their abilities, which have tons of different abilities. (Guidebooks be like that.) JoJoVeller, an guidebook, has stand pages that goes from Part 3 up to Early Part 8, and its said to have ger, its RTZ ability itself, > any ability, its superior to them, above them. Some might have madness manip, but idk, ima look around ig.
[Edited]

And from my understanding, there isn't any Jojo Ability - to my knowledge - that has Type 3 Madness Manipulation. But correct me if I am wrong. Plus, even then, that's a NFL statement. Sure, my Pandora argument is a bit NFL itself, but cognition-based hax is pretty strong and just requires a person to be able to think to be affected.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

"Why wouldn't it? Pandora's Passive Madness Manipulation is type 3 aka madness hax that makes people mad with the very act of looking at or attempting to perceive them is enough to send victims into a state of madness or terror, and in Pandora's case, the passive madness hax causes people to go insane resulting in them killing themselves." Uh, why would that mean a spiritual being should be affected? The madness manip has shown to only work on physical beings, correct? If so, why would it work on non-physical beings? Is there a feat or statement that proves this? If not, then I dont see as to how Pandora gets to even affect ger here. How does Pandora's madness stuff even work here? What does it affect? (The brain or what? If its via vision, then you'd need to prove that normal vision = Spiritual Entity's vision.

Why wouldn't it? Pandora's Passive Madness Manipulation is type 3 aka madness hax that makes people mad with the very act of looking at or attempting to perceive them is enough to send victims into a state of madness or terror, and in Pandora's case, the passive madness hax causes people to go insane resulting in them killing themselves.

I don't think having layered intangibility is enough to protect against it since by the very nature of type 3 madness manipulation... it doesn't require any physical touch, someone - GER or Giorno, in this case - to look Pandora and go mad and try to kill themselves. There's also Pandora's passive aura which causes fear, but it isn't really helpful.


And from my understanding, there isn't any Jojo Ability - to my knowledge - that has Type 3 Madness Manipulation. But correct me if I am wrong. Plus, even then, that's a NFL statement. Sure, my Pandora argument is a bit NFL itself, but cognition-based hax is pretty strong and just requires a person to be able to think to be affected.

Why would GER being stated by WOG itself, to be >> all stands, and RTZ itself being > Any Stand ability (From. P3 up to Early Part 8) be NFL? We even have context regarding HOW that would be- Which is that, RTZ would affect X Stand ability, rtz'ing them without any issue. It'd still work, like, that's not even NFL lol. Anyways, you said it works via perceiving her? If so, that seems like cause and effect to me, The cause is giorno looking at pandora, and the effect is that, he gets inflicted with madness- Which would never arrive, because said action wouldnt ever arrive. You can take a look at Chariot's explanation throughout this thread which I'll link now, he does better than me tbh. https://vsbattles.com/threads/giorno-giovanna-vs-mew.134314/post-4632152

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Honestly, I... don't have a clear idea how GER's RtZ works. So I'll take your words about GER's ability into mind, and the link too.

Still, tho... Saying that GER's mind is so built different to the point that it is immune to Type 3 MM is a stretch - cognition, by definition, means the mental action or process of acquiring knowledge and understanding through thought, experience, and the senses; so GER being an intangible spirit/stand shouldn't matter since it can think, which means, it should fall under the effect of Type 3 MM.

Heck, GER's stand physiology is probs enough to defend against Type 1 (Biological) & Type 2 (Mind Manipulation) since the former requires something a stand doesn't have (i.e, bodily parts) and the latter is something that likely needs layered NPI to affect a stand (Mind Manipulation) - but Pandora's Type 3 MM just requires Giorno/GER to perceive her to drive them mad.

It doesn't matter that the ones who were affected by Pandora's Type 3 MM hax were biological folks - they perceived her, so they turned mad. And Stand Physiology and their intangibility don't cover that - tbh, even if it does affect GER, RtZ is still a thing, but still Pandora'sType 3 MM is passive, it would immediately fall under her hax again, and GER would break out of it with RtZ, and fall under it again, yada yada.

Like, this is a passive ability, after all. As long as Giorno/GER can perceive Pandora, they'll be under her Type 3 MM. Negating them being under its effect won't stop her hax from immediately affecting them again - to beat a passive ability, you need to be immune to it or have a huge resistance towards it or have a rating of immeasurable speed to not fall under its effect.

... Also, this isn't accounting for Pandora's own causality hax, which will likely prevent GER's attack from reaching her by YEETing Giorno somewhere or making it so that GER's attacks never happened, and since GER's actions didn't happen, she never got hurt. Probably won't work, but I have to mention this.

Honestly, the only reason I am here is cuz of Pandora's Type 3 MM, this would be a clear STOMP for Giorno, otherwise.

 

[StekFence]

from what I understand, looking at her will cause the madness. So Giorno is gonna be affected, and ger should also be affected. However, it’s passive rtz should be enough to keep them alive. So I’m assuming ger could look away at some point. If that, combined with rtzing the madness they got from looking at her is enough to break out, then I guess he’s forced to fight blind. Which isn’t so bad considering he ones shots. however, he’s gonna have a not so fun time trying to hit a small target whilst blind

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

from what I understand, looking at her will cause the madness. So Giorno is gonna be affected, and ger should also be affected. However, it’s passive rtz should be enough to keep them alive. So I’m assuming ger could look away at some point. If that, combined with rtzing the madness they got from looking at her is enough to break out, then I guess he’s forced to fight blind. Which isn’t so bad considering he ones shots. however, he’s gonna have a not so fun time trying to hit a small target whilst blind

Ye. Although, the fact that Pandora's Type 3 MM specifically says that just being in her presence causes people to go insane which results in them killing themselves might mean that Giorno/GER not looking at Pandora is not enough to be unaffected by it. Same end result but the both of them are trapped in an endless loop of being affected by hax and breaking out of the effect of the hax and being put under the effect of the hax. Again, even if RtZ is passive, Pandora's Madness Hax is passive as well. But this is only a maybe.

 

[StekFence]

Same end result but the both of them are trapped in an endless loop of being affected by hax and breaking out of the effect of the hax and being put under the effect of the hax. Again, even if RtZ is passive, Pandora's Madness Hax is passive as well. But this is only a maybe.

Considering both effects are passive, it’s not gonna have much of an effect, as whenever he gets mad, it will instantly be fixed, so its not going to interfere with his actions much, even when it’s reapplied, as it’s instantly fixed

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Considering both effects are passive, it’s not gonna have much of an effect, as whenever he gets mad, it will instantly be fixed, so its not going to interfere with his actions much, even when it’s reapplied, as it’s instantly fixed

Yup... So I gotta ask... Does GER have any long-range moves? I know that GER did some weird shit, but OP never stated what the starting distance or setting for this battle is, so... this battle might be set in Central Park, NY and the starting distance might be four kilometers or smth, which means that Giorno and GER is going to take a long ass time in getting close to Pandora and one-tapping her.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

Honestly, I... don't have a clear idea how GER's RtZ works. So I'll take your words about GER's ability into mind, and the link too.

Still, tho... Saying that GER's mind is so built different to the point that it is immune to Type 3 MM is a stretch - cognition, by definition, means the mental action or process of acquiring knowledge and understanding through thought, experience, and the senses; so GER being an intangible spirit/stand shouldn't matter since it can think, which means, it should fall under the effect of Type 3 MM.

Heck, GER's stand physiology is probs enough to defend against Type 1 (Biological) & Type 2 (Mind Manipulation) since the former requires something a stand doesn't have (i.e, bodily parts) and the latter is something that likely needs layered NPI to affect a stand (Mind Manipulation) - but Pandora's Type 3 MM just requires Giorno/GER to perceive her to drive them mad.

It doesn't matter that the ones who were affected by Pandora's Type 3 MM hax were biological folks - they perceived her, so they turned mad. And Stand Physiology and their intangibility don't cover that - tbh, even if it does affect GER, RtZ is still a thing, but still Pandora'sType 3 MM is passive, it would immediately fall under her hax again, and GER would break out of it with RtZ, and fall under it again, yada yada.

Like, this is a passive ability, after all. As long as Giorno/GER can perceive Pandora, they'll be under her Type 3 MM. Negating them being under its effect won't stop her hax from immediately affecting them again - to beat a passive ability, you need to be immune to it or have a huge resistance towards it or have a rating of immeasurable speed to not fall under its effect.

... Also, this isn't accounting for Pandora's own causality hax, which will likely prevent GER's attack from reaching her by YEETing Giorno somewhere or making it so that GER's attacks never happened, and since GER's actions didn't happen, she never got hurt. Probably won't work, but I have to mention this.

Honestly, the only reason I am here is cuz of Pandora's Type 3 MM, this would be a clear STOMP for Giorno, otherwise.

Can you explain as to how Pandora's casuality manip works? If not, then k, I dont really mind. Also if ya need, I can bring the scans and explain as to how ger's rtz works if you want.

Idk, I still dont see it the way you do, in regards to MM type 3 working on spiritual beings or not (without feats of affecting spiritual beings)
but, I believe there are some feats that'll allow ger to like, look at her with no trouble, lemme grab em ig.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

Ye. Although, the fact that Pandora's Type 3 MM specifically says that just being in her presence causes people to go insane which results in them killing themselves might mean that Giorno/GER not looking at Pandora is not enough to be unaffected by it. Same end result but the both of them are trapped in an endless loop of being affected by hax and breaking out of the effect of the hax and being put under the effect of the hax. Again, even if RtZ is passive, Pandora's Madness Hax is passive as well. But this is only a maybe.

What do they mean by presence? Kinda needs context tbh.

 

[StekFence]

Yup... So I gotta ask... Does GER have any long-range moves? I know that GER did some weird shit, but OP never stated what the starting distance or setting for this battle is, so... this battle might be set in Central Park, NY and the starting distance might be four kilometers or smth, which means that Giorno and GER is going to take a long ass time in getting close to Pandora and one-tapping her.

The best it can do is to try to throw a rock at her. Or turn one into a medium range laser

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Can you explain as to how Pandora's casuality manip works? If not, then k, I dont really mind. Also if ya need, I can bring the scans and explain as to how ger's rtz works if you want.

Idk, I still dont see it the way you do, in regards to MM type 3 working on spiritual beings or not (without feats of affecting spiritual beings)
but, I believe there are some feats that'll allow ger to like, look at her with no trouble, lemme grab em ig.

It just works... Literally. Still have yet to get an explanation in series on how her causality manip works. Probs below GER due to this. And again, your argument would work against type 1 & 2 MM hax, but since GER can think and type 3 MM just requires a person to think to be affected, Pandora's passive hax won't give a damn to GER's spiritual nature - in my eyes, at least.

And again. Unless GER has a specified resistance that can resist type 3 MM, then, no dice. Stand physiology won't save it. It doesn't have the resistance for it. Intangibility & Incorporeality don't protect against it either. Stand Physiology page says that one needs enhanced Extrasensory Perception and enhanced Non-Physical Interaction to see touch or sense Stands, but Pandora's hax doesn't require her to see, touch, or sense GER since it is entirely passive.

What do they mean by presence? Kinda needs context tbh.

It is just written like that in her bio. It is also a result of Pandora being a part of a collective group that all have this passive type 3 mm.

The best it can do is to try to throw a rock at her. Or turn one into a medium range laser

Welp... Pandora might either let Giorno come close (and let him & GER get mad hax'd) or try to use her power on him but fail due to RtZ but eventually have Giorno & GER get max hax'd but break out of it with RtZ then immediately get trapped by it then immediately break out of it then... yada yada.