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The Primals were able to fight much more active Pokémon in the Hoopa movie. Then again, some of those Pokémon were the gods so...
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Rayquaza vs Goku Redux
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
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Rayquaza is also able to fight the incredibly experienced Team Go-Getters in the Rescue Team games. And has that kickass theme song playing too ovo
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Tbh I don't think M-Ray will get much experience fighting the primals, considering Ray defeated them passively.
"Rayquaza once again confronted Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre. The golden filaments that sprang from its body covered the sky. An emerald brilliance illuminated the area. A terrible wind rose."
"The wind and emerald light visibly sapped the power from Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre. Drained of their primal powers, the two vanished into the depths of land and sea. Rayquaza watched them go, regaining its usual appearance. Then it soared back up into the heavens where it dwelled.
"Rayquaza once again confronted Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre. The golden filaments that sprang from its body covered the sky. An emerald brilliance illuminated the area. A terrible wind rose."
"The wind and emerald light visibly sapped the power from Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre. Drained of their primal powers, the two vanished into the depths of land and sea. Rayquaza watched them go, regaining its usual appearance. Then it soared back up into the heavens where it dwelled.
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So um...passive energy absorption.
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So far, as I see, Rayquaza holds the definite advantage here.
While Goku can bridge the gaps to an extent with Kaioken, we have acknowledge that he is expending more energy just to do that. He has to keep maintaining the Kaioken and will lose his amps if he can't or is knocked out of it.
Rayquaza has several ways to get amps and doesn't have to really expend that much stamina to do so and benefits from them stacking on each other. Nomad will raise Rayquaza attack just as Rayquaza moves around. Dragon Dance raises attack and speed after being performed. Ancient Power has a chance raise all of Rayquaza pertinent stats. Extreme Speed is temporary speed boost but still there and relevant.
Scary Face actually hurts Goku a lot. Yes, Kaioken can help deal it with but Goku can't do that forever and once KK drops, Goku's going to be moving a good deal slower than normal and Rayquaza's immense speed and speed amps will make him pay for any slip up.
In summation: I think that Goku's abilities are more or less compensating for the differences between him and Rayquaza. Goku is more than likely the better fighter but Rayquaza has more actual attack options. Furthermore, as the fight goes on, Rayquaza going to steadily get stronger and faster while Goku is left trying to compete and constantly expending stamina and taxing himself just to stay in the game.
I really don't see a way that Goku wins. The gap in power seems a little too big and he's a logistical disadvantage if the fight drags on.
While Goku can bridge the gaps to an extent with Kaioken, we have acknowledge that he is expending more energy just to do that. He has to keep maintaining the Kaioken and will lose his amps if he can't or is knocked out of it.
Rayquaza has several ways to get amps and doesn't have to really expend that much stamina to do so and benefits from them stacking on each other. Nomad will raise Rayquaza attack just as Rayquaza moves around. Dragon Dance raises attack and speed after being performed. Ancient Power has a chance raise all of Rayquaza pertinent stats. Extreme Speed is temporary speed boost but still there and relevant.
Scary Face actually hurts Goku a lot. Yes, Kaioken can help deal it with but Goku can't do that forever and once KK drops, Goku's going to be moving a good deal slower than normal and Rayquaza's immense speed and speed amps will make him pay for any slip up.
In summation: I think that Goku's abilities are more or less compensating for the differences between him and Rayquaza. Goku is more than likely the better fighter but Rayquaza has more actual attack options. Furthermore, as the fight goes on, Rayquaza going to steadily get stronger and faster while Goku is left trying to compete and constantly expending stamina and taxing himself just to stay in the game.
I really don't see a way that Goku wins. The gap in power seems a little too big and he's a logistical disadvantage if the fight drags on.
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But doesn't Rayquaza need to hold a Mega St-
Oh. Right. AG for a reason.
Oh. Right. AG for a reason.
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If Goku gets overwhelmed by Rayquaza's speed, then what stops him from using a Kaio-Ken x4 enhanced Kamehameha?
I'm pretty sure that Rayquaza would die to that.
I'm pretty sure that Rayquaza would die to that.
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Not easy to dodge a thing 4x faster than you.
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Kaio-Ken x4 Goku is Relativistic+, and Ki blast raises one's ki even higher than normal.GyroNutz said:
Not to mention it was a pretty big Kamehameha.
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If Vegeta didn't die from it, why would Rayquaza, who's debatably stronger?
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Maybe inconclusive, Rayquaza has passive and active boosts, and passive energy absorption, but Goku surely has more experience and can hit very hard with Kaio-Ken, I don't know...
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Point blank Hyper Beams have a better track record against comparable foes.
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It'd depend on the range gap.Warren Valion said:
If they're fighting at range, Rayquaza has more time to react to the attack (s = d/t) and so it'd be relatively easy to dodge.
If they're fighting CQC, then Rayquaza hits him when he charges up + he probably won't get a good opportunity to use it anyway.
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I am pretty sure we establish through scaling that Rayquaza is more comparable to Base Goku than Kaio-Ken x4 Goku.The real cal howard said:
And that scene is total bullshit, it's the only time in the series where a Kamehameha pushes someone instead of enveloping them and disintegrating them.
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Rayquaza's feat is more than 8 times higher than the one Goku scales to. You don't even have multipliers to back up on. There's no legitimate way to say that Base Goku=Rayquaza without it being instantly debunked.
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To be frank no, guko has approx the same speed as Mega Ray (if we count the huge scaling chain from piccolo to the Saiyan saga gukoGyroNutz said:
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@Dodo. How does a scaling chain between 5-Bs trumps a scaling chain from a 7-A to a 5-B. For Christ's sake, Pikachu can blitz Poliwrath.
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Do you mean six times?The real cal howard said:
420/70 is 6, not 8.
And Goku is at the top of a long scaling chain mostly comprised of people causally stomping other people.
A difference of 6 times is not that much.
Saying that Base Goku should be comparable to Rayquaza isn't far-fetched at all.
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The speed scaling chain isn't that big. At least, not nearly as big as Rayquaza's.The Causality said:
Poliwrath (0.24c, which is already faster than Piccolo's feat) << Fast Pokemon <<<< Mega Pokemon <<<< Weaker Legendaries << Groudon/Kyogre <<< Rayquaza <<<< Mega Rayquaza
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Hmm....
In this case yes, he seem to be faster (but still not enough to blitz Guko, Kaioken should still be faster but not largely)
In this case yes, he seem to be faster (but still not enough to blitz Guko, Kaioken should still be faster but not largely)
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@Warren. Not even. Raditz stomps Piccolo & Goku. Nappa stomps the Z warriors. Vegeta stomps Nappa. Did anyone take anything out of Matt's rant at DB constantly abusing scaling chains to say they're crazily above baseline without feats?
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It wasn't really a rant. It was just a sentence or two, not even any exclamation points.The real cal howard said:
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I'm getting too involved in this thread. I'm the OP and should be neutral.
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@Cal you're missing like half of the scaling chain there
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There's also the fact that Rayquaza has equipment that boosts it's power and the power of certain attacks before it even uses any others amps.
Also, Extreme Speed is still a thing.
Also, Extreme Speed is still a thing.
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I haven't seen Matt's rant, nor do I treat Matt's opinions and persepctive as gospel.The real cal howard said:
This is the scaling:
Piccolo did a 70 Zettaton Moon feat, Goku scales as he is comparable in strength.
Raditz causally stomped both Goku and Piccolo working together.
A Saibamen is equivalent to Raditz.
Krillin had an attack that one-shot four Saibamen at the same time.
Piccolo should scale to this, if not be above it as it was made pretty clear that he was the strongest Z-Fighter against the Saiyans - excluding an angry Gohan. Not to mention he casually blitzed and stomped a Saibamen himself.
Nappa was able to take on all the Z-Fighters at the same time without giving it his full effort.
Nappa's full effort was comparable, but still inferior to base Post-King Kai Training Goku.
Goku can multiply his power, speed, durability, reactions, et cetera with Kaio-Ken.
So...
Kaio-Ken x4 Goku > Kaio-Ken x3 Goku > Kaio-Ken x2 Goku > Base Post-Training Goku >= Full-Power Nappa > Causal Nappa >>> All Z-Fighters > Piccolo >= Krillin > 4 Saibamen > 1 Saibamen = Raditz >>> Raditz Saga Goku >= Raditz Saga Piccolo = 70 ZT
Please explain to me if you believe there is anything wrong with the scaling.
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The only thing I'm missing is the Z Fighters to the Saibamen, which given Yamcha's fight with one, shows that they're not far apart. Saying Vegeta casually stomps Nappa has the same value as Goku's comparison to Nappa.Theglassman12 said:
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No it doesn't, considering Kaio-Ken Amped goku was able to overwhelm Vegeta to the point he went Oozaru
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@Warren
I think he's referring to this.
"Yup, that's exactly a problem.
They think that everytim a character beats another decisively they must be twice, thrice, or ten times as stronger, or some even higher number. "This guy one-shot the other, he must be a hundred times stronger!"
That's not how it works. Literally the energy gap (in Joules) between what's produced by an average human standing still and the most energetic punch ever recorded to have been thrown by a heavyweight professional fighter in history, a punch which would literally kill any of us here were it hit in the head with it... is about 15 times."
and
"Cal is 100% correct. The Dragon Ball Fanbase needs to stop being so obssessed with scaling chains and multipliers and numerically quantifying everything, because it gets ridiculous. The best you can say about Dragon Ball characters without getting into the comically absurd it's that they're immensely above baseline 3-A down to an unquantifiable amount. That's it.
Arbitrary Multipliers for Training Boosts, Transformation Boosts, Zenkai Boosts and what have you are not canon, and are not valid ways of debating. Get your mind out of theSeth gutter."
I think he's referring to this.
"Yup, that's exactly a problem.
They think that everytim a character beats another decisively they must be twice, thrice, or ten times as stronger, or some even higher number. "This guy one-shot the other, he must be a hundred times stronger!"
That's not how it works. Literally the energy gap (in Joules) between what's produced by an average human standing still and the most energetic punch ever recorded to have been thrown by a heavyweight professional fighter in history, a punch which would literally kill any of us here were it hit in the head with it... is about 15 times."
and
"Cal is 100% correct. The Dragon Ball Fanbase needs to stop being so obssessed with scaling chains and multipliers and numerically quantifying everything, because it gets ridiculous. The best you can say about Dragon Ball characters without getting into the comically absurd it's that they're immensely above baseline 3-A down to an unquantifiable amount. That's it.
Arbitrary Multipliers for Training Boosts, Transformation Boosts, Zenkai Boosts and what have you are not canon, and are not valid ways of debating. Get your mind out of the
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The Pokémon I actually like wins
Reasons above
Reasons above
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I disagree with his assessment.
Comparing how energy in a human's body works to how Ki works in Dragon Ball is a false equivalency.
Hell, large scaling chains exist for a lot of Shonen (Bleach and Fairy Tail come to mind) and it is fine because the numbers aren't "too big" or whatever. I don't think it's fair to say that because it seems more like an argument on incredulity then anything else.
Dragon Ball uses scaling chains and multipliers so much because that's what is given to us in the narrative.
There is a character that does a feat, a shit-ton of people scale to and above it with multipliers, and then some new bad guy does another much better feat. Frieza having a star level feat to Cell having a solar system one, to Beerus having a universe level one to Zamasu's universal+.
That's how Dragon Ball works.
Ignoring the increases in strength from Training, Transformations, and Zenkai Boosts is just ignoring what is shown to us, for reasoning that seems to me is just, "it's too big, so I don't like you using it."
And I don't think to downplay a series because the numbers are big really makes a whole lot of sense.
Especially from a series where every arc there is a new transformation that is like 20x stronger than the last one (This is semi-hyperbole).
Comparing how energy in a human's body works to how Ki works in Dragon Ball is a false equivalency.
Hell, large scaling chains exist for a lot of Shonen (Bleach and Fairy Tail come to mind) and it is fine because the numbers aren't "too big" or whatever. I don't think it's fair to say that because it seems more like an argument on incredulity then anything else.
Dragon Ball uses scaling chains and multipliers so much because that's what is given to us in the narrative.
There is a character that does a feat, a shit-ton of people scale to and above it with multipliers, and then some new bad guy does another much better feat. Frieza having a star level feat to Cell having a solar system one, to Beerus having a universe level one to Zamasu's universal+.
That's how Dragon Ball works.
Ignoring the increases in strength from Training, Transformations, and Zenkai Boosts is just ignoring what is shown to us, for reasoning that seems to me is just, "it's too big, so I don't like you using it."
And I don't think to downplay a series because the numbers are big really makes a whole lot of sense.
Especially from a series where every arc there is a new transformation that is like 20x stronger than the last one (This is semi-hyperbole).
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You can one shot with a fairly minor gap. Hell, you can instantly kill people slightly weaker than you with a single good blow to certain places like the neck or something.
However, doing something like splattering your opponent would be different. Iirc this sort of thing on a human body was calced at 9-A, and we max out at 9-C skeletal structures and muscle tissue of some people.
However, doing something like splattering your opponent would be different. Iirc this sort of thing on a human body was calced at 9-A, and we max out at 9-C skeletal structures and muscle tissue of some people.
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I think that came from the misconception that the scaling chain that uses numbers uses numbers from stomps and other things that aren't valid. So when you see a 2X or a 10X and you put the Arc next to it, he thought you meant training boosts or Zenkai multipliers. I feel like that could have been avoided.
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Any numbers on a scaling chain from Dragon Ball come from accepted multipliers when they are applicable.DragonEmperor23 said:
Any increases in strength that aren't quantified is just ambiguously stronger.
I don't see where anyone would have said anything remotely similar to, "This guy one-shot the other, he must be a hundred times stronger!"
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Anyway...
I say Goku has the skill advantage, and with Kaio-Ken the AP advantage as well.
Rayquaza has the speed advantage, especially with all his speed amps and shit. He can also reduce Goku's speed as well. However, some of Rayquaza's abilities are seemingly based on chance and luck.
Goku being hit more often due to Rayquaza's greater speed will be, at least somewhat, countered from Goku's pure durability.
Goku's muscles were ripped apart from using his Kaio-Ken x4 Kamehameha and he still was able to shortly avoid Vegeta, charge up a Spirit Bomb, and get every bone in his body crushed - and still live. Saiyan Saga was actually pretty brutal now that I think about it, but yeah, Goku can take quite the beating and still fight.
Actually, I didn't think about that option before, but using the solar flare technique or just blasting Rayquaza in the eyes like he did Vegeta to give him the ten seconds needed to create a spirit bomb might be a valid option to both slow Rayquaza down and kill him.
Honestly, I think this is a really close match. I don't know who to vote for.
I say Goku has the skill advantage, and with Kaio-Ken the AP advantage as well.
Rayquaza has the speed advantage, especially with all his speed amps and shit. He can also reduce Goku's speed as well. However, some of Rayquaza's abilities are seemingly based on chance and luck.
Goku being hit more often due to Rayquaza's greater speed will be, at least somewhat, countered from Goku's pure durability.
Goku's muscles were ripped apart from using his Kaio-Ken x4 Kamehameha and he still was able to shortly avoid Vegeta, charge up a Spirit Bomb, and get every bone in his body crushed - and still live. Saiyan Saga was actually pretty brutal now that I think about it, but yeah, Goku can take quite the beating and still fight.
Actually, I didn't think about that option before, but using the solar flare technique or just blasting Rayquaza in the eyes like he did Vegeta to give him the ten seconds needed to create a spirit bomb might be a valid option to both slow Rayquaza down and kill him.
Honestly, I think this is a really close match. I don't know who to vote for.
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