Rayquaza vs Goku Redux

[GyroNutz]

In all my kindness, it's seem really a game mechanic

Pretty sure it works the same way in the anime as well

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

How...exactly?

Probably should read this.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Yes

That's adorable.

 

[Theglassman12]

Kaioken can counter scary face as Goku can use it as a speed booster with each level

 

[Wokistan]

Oh hey speed's actually unequal for once

 

[Warren_Valion]

Wait, speed isn't equalized.

How fast are these characters?

Piccolo who did the Moon feat was 15% of the speed of Light.

Vegeta Saga Base Goku is numerous times faster and has Kaio-Ken to amplify his speed more (or counter Rayquaza's speed reduction in this case).

 

[Theglassman12]

Isn't Ray around 40% SoL?

 

[The_Causality]

Ray is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>24% SoL

 

[GyroNutz]

Mega Rayquaza is superior to Rayquaza, who's superior to Primal Groudon/Kyogre, who're superior to regular Groudon/Kyogre, who are immensely superior to Poliwrath who is 24% SoL

So Mega Ray >> Ray > Primals >> Groudon/Kyogre >>>>> Poliwrath = 0.24c

 

[Wokistan]

Rayquaza seems to be significantly (On the level of > his base which is > legendaries who are > this feat) faster than this.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Isn't Ray around 40% SoL?

So they should be around the same speed?

I'm really shocked that there are two characters in the same tier with about the same AP and Speed.


How Rayquaza's skill cap?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Poliwrath has a 24% SoL feat. Normal Pokémon<<<<<Mega Pokemon<<<<Weaker Legendaries<<<Groudon/Kyogre<<<Rayquaza<<<<<Mega Rayquaza

Mega Rayquaza's the fastest non-MFTL+ or higher Pokemon (well, Deoxys-S and Mega Mewtwo Y might be faster)

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Oh, no.Raiquaza is so far above he pokemon hat did the feat that it isn't even funny.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

"How Rayquaza's skill cap?"

100 million years of experience

 

[Warren_Valion]

Oh, no.Raiquaza is so far above he pokemon hat did the feat that it isn't even funny.

You can say the same thing for Goku after King Kai's training and Raditz Saga Piccolo.

 

[The_Calaca]

Ray has lived for millions if not billions of years stopping Kyogre and Groundon from their tantrums. He holds the experience here and I don't know if we treat Goku's attacks as Fighting-Type which Ray resists.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

You can say the same thing for Goku after King Kai's training and Raditz Saga Piccolo.

No, nowhere near this extent.

 

[The_Causality]

Use namek saga Guko

 

[Warren_Valion]

Ray has lived for millions if not billions of years stopping Kyogre and Groundon from their tantrums. He holds the experience here and I don't know if we treat Goku's attacks as Fighting-Type which Ray resists.

How does one resist being punched?

 

[GyroNutz]

I don't know if we treat Goku's attacks as Fighting-Type which Ray resists.

We don't afaik, there was a thread on that before.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

" Stamina: Extremely high (Rayquaza has lived for hundreds of millions of years in the ozone layer and remained very powerful throughout those times, even directly fighting against Groudon and Kyogre) "

I don't think your age factors into your stamina. That's not how that works.

 

[GyroNutz]

Oh, no.Raiquaza is so far above he pokemon hat did the feat that it isn't even funny.

You can say the same thing for Goku after King Kai's training and Raditz Saga Piccolo.

Rayquaza scales higher

 

[DragonEmperor23]

"How Rayquaza's skill cap?"
100 million years of experience

You're talking about Groudon and Kyogre right? Didn't he stomp them?

 

[Wokistan]

We don't equalize types like fighting.

 

[Wokistan]

Also, isn't rayquaza just way stronger than them moreso than being a skilled combatant?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Cal

Being alive for a long time doesn't mean you have that many years of combat experience. Rayquaza rarely comes out of the sky and when he does he usually outclassed his opponents.

Also while I'm sure Rayquaza is intelligent, I'm not sure how tactical in battle he is. Against most opponents he usually just brute forces with Hyper Beam spam.

 

[The_Calaca]

That's why I asked about that.

In-verse logic states that Fighting-Type is weak against Flying-Type because is hard to punch something that's in the air (which isn't a problem here) but considering we use some of those resistances I was wondering about this one.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

We don't equalize types like fighting.

^ this

Only the elemental types get equalized (unless you're Arceus), with Steel, Ghost, and Psychic having some leeway.

 

[The_Causality]

Where is the Rela feat for DB?

 

[Warren_Valion]

@Cal
Being alive for a long time doesn't mean you have that many years of combat experience. Rayquaza rarely comes out of the sky and when he does he usually outclassed his opponents.

Also while I'm sure Rayquaza is intelligent, I'm not sure how tactical in battle he is. Against most opponents he usually just brute forces with Hyper Beam spam.

If this is true, then I'd probably give Goku the skill advantage for being a martial artist with years of experience training with and fighting against other prestigious martial artists.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Who is the Rela feat for DB?

Dragon Ball characters are comparable to their Ki blast, and Piccolo's moon feat scales to about 15% of the SoL. (Look at the comments here)

Raditz blitzed attacks from Piccolo even faster and stronger than the one that Piccolo used to blow up the moon.

 

[GyroNutz]

Over millions of years, Rayquaza's definitely had more fights than Goku has. In the mega evolution special, Primal Groudon was able to harm Mega Rayquaza with his attacks, so you can't say Mega Ray curbstomps them either.

 

[Wokistan]

More fights doesn't necessarily mean more skill when Rayquaza usually wins via AP and it's role is specifically to deal with those two, though. Has it ever fought something much smaller and more nimble than the primals?

 

[GyroNutz]

Rayquaza fought Deoxys before, who should be even faster than it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yes. And won.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Over millions of years, Rayquaza's definitely had more fights than Goku has. In the mega evolution special, Primal Groudon was able to harm Mega Rayquaza with his attacks, so you can't say Mega Ray curbstomps them either.

Not only does he not use much skill in those battles, but how often do the primals awaken? Not very often, if I had to guess.

 

[The_Causality]

Well Guko is approx Equal in speed without Kaioken boost:

15% = Piccolo & Guko<<Raditz<Saibamen<Yamcha<<Tien<<<Casual nappa = Krilin & Piccolo<<<Serious Nappa<<Casual Guko = Full Power Nappa<<Semi serious guko<<Serious Guko =<Vegeta

And Kaioken multiply this.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Over millions of years, Rayquaza's definitely had more fights than Goku has. In the mega evolution special, Primal Groudon was able to harm Mega Rayquaza with his attacks, so you can't say Mega Ray curbstomps them either.

Quality > Quantity

A person who usually far outclass his opponents in power will learn very little from fighting, even from a lot of it.

A person who is equal against another person who uses technique and strategy will learn far more than the person in my previous sentence even when being in fewer fights.


Now I'm not saying that Goku far outclasses Rayquaza's skill level or anything, I'm just saying I'd probably give Goku the edge in skill for his martial arts training.


To quote Bruce Lee:

 

[GyroNutz]

Not only does he not use much skill in those battles, but how often do the primals awaken? Not very often, if I had to guess.

Didn't the primals fight all the time over their millions-of-years lifespan?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Doesn't Raiquaza specifically have the power to just nope their Primal forms and the AP to just blast em whenever needed? Skill hardly matter for those.