Ralts and Riolu line profile revision/canon separation + Groudon's inside story (Staff input needed!!!)

[koopa3144]

Ralts line Profile revision ​

New Profile​

Old Profile​

Riolu line Profile revision​

New Profile​

Old Profile​

Groudon Profile revision​

New Profile​

Old Profile​

So I revised the Ralts and Riolu line profiles. they should be in accordance with our current Pokemon canon standards only having content canon to the mainline games. The profile should also be renamed to "Ralts (Games)" and "Riolu (Games)" or something like that. If theirs anything I should change or add let me know..

Agree: @Emerald @Ret_of_Guys @Spectra_Schiffer
Disagree:
Neutral:

Idk what else to say so have this:

 

[Emerald]

I agree with most things
But the 7-B rating comes from the manga, the Dragonair obliterating a city feat. Instead, Kirlia should downscale to 1/10 of Gardevoir/Gallade's power due to Farigiraf who is 10x stronger than Girafarig. I feel like we have discussed this in the mega revision thred

 

[koopa3144]

I agree with most things
But the 7-B rating comes from the manga, the Dragonair obliterating a city feat. Instead, Kirlia should downscale to 1/10 of Gardevoir/Gallade's power due to Farigiraf who is 10x stronger than Girafarig. I feel like we have discussed this in the mega revision thred

Gotcha. I did that math and got 378.39063617 megatons which is 7-A. I'll change the rating on the blog when I find the time today.

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[Alus83]

I agree with most things
But the 7-B rating comes from the manga, the Dragonair obliterating a city feat. Instead, Kirlia should downscale to 1/10 of Gardevoir/Gallade's power due to Farigiraf who is 10x stronger than Girafarig. I feel like we have discussed this in the mega revision thred

I think Farigiraf's 10x amp is not enough to prove that every evolution has a 10x amp. Trapinch disagrees with your argument.

 

[Jirachi_the_real_93]

I think Farigiraf's 10x amp is not enough to prove that every evolution has a 10x amp. Trapinch disagrees with your argument.

I agree with you

 

[Emerald]

I think Farigiraf's 10x amp is not enough to prove that every evolution has a 10x amp. Trapinch disagrees with your argument.

What does Trapinch have?

 

[Alus83]

What does Trapinch have?

It was just a reference to the fact that Trapinch loses stats when it evolves into Vibrava. Seriously though, I think it's a bit of a generalization to say that every preevolution is proportionally less than 10x based on just one specific example. Btw, isn't this like a fallacy of composition or smth like that?

 

[Jirachi_the_real_93]

It was just a reference to the fact that Trapinch loses stats when it evolves into Vibrava. Seriously though, I think it's a bit of a generalization to say that every preevolution is proportionally less than 10x based on just one specific example. Btw, isn't this like a fallacy of composition or smth like that?

I agree with you

 

[Emerald]

It was just a reference to the fact that Trapinch loses stats when it evolves into Vibrava. Seriously though, I think it's a bit of a generalization to say that every preevolution is proportionally less than 10x based on just one specific example. Btw, isn't this like a fallacy of composition or smth like that?

We dont use stats for scaling
Besides we are not saying that each evolution is 10x the previous state, we are saying that second stage Evos would scale to 1/10 of Farigiraf through the dex entry
(Now i remember. Middle stage evo mons scale to Girafarig who is 1/10 of Farigiraf thats why they are 7-A)

 

[Alus83]

We dont use stats for scaling
Besides we are not saying that each evolution is 10x the previous state, we are saying that second stage Evos would scale to 1/10 of Farigiraf through the dex entry
(Now i remember. Middle stage evo mons scale to Girafarig who is 1/10 of Farigiraf thats why they are 7-A)

Yeah, I know that stats aren't used for scaling; it was just an example where an evolved Pokémon doesn't become stronger than its pre-evolution. Anyway, I think I didn't fully understand your point. Could you explain it better? What do you mean by 'stage 2 evos would scale to 1/10 of Farigiraf'? Btw, if you didn't mean that each evolution has a 10x amp, I misunderstood the message "Kirlia should downscale to 1/10 of Gardevoir/Gallade's power due to Farigiraf, who is 10x stronger than Girafarig", my bad.

 

[Jirachi_the_real_93]

Yeah, I know that stats aren't used for scaling; it was just an example where an evolved Pokémon doesn't become stronger than its pre-evolution. Anyway, I think I didn't fully understand your point. Could you explain it better? What do you mean by 'stage 2 evos would scale to 1/10 of Farigiraf'? Btw, if you didn't mean that each evolution has a 10x amp, I misunderstood the message "Kirlia should downscale to 1/10 of Gardevoir/Gallade's power due to Farigiraf, who is 10x stronger than Girafarig", my bad.

I agree with you

 

[Emerald]

Yeah, I know that stats aren't used for scaling; it was just an example where an evolved Pokémon doesn't become stronger than its pre-evolution. Anyway, I think I didn't fully understand your point. Could you explain it better? What do you mean by 'stage 2 evos would scale to 1/10 of Farigiraf'? Btw, if you didn't mean that each evolution has a 10x amp, I misunderstood the message "Kirlia should downscale to 1/10 of Gardevoir/Gallade's power due to Farigiraf, who is 10x stronger than Girafarig", my bad.

I meant as, Kirlia scales to Girafarig, and Girafarig is 1/10 of Farigiraf who is High 7-A. Therefore Kirlia would be 7-A due to scaling to Girafarig

 

[Alus83]

I meant as, Kirlia scales to Girafarig, and Girafarig is 1/10 of Farigiraf who is High 7-A. Therefore Kirlia would be 7-A due to scaling to Girafarig

My point isn't exactly about scaling; I can agree with Kirlia being 7-A. I had understood that you meant Kirlia is 1/10 of Gardevoir because Farigiraf is 10x than Girafarig. From how I interpreted the main message, I thought you meant that since Girafarig has a 10x amp with the Evo, then the evolution of Kirlia should follow a similar ratio.

 

[Jirachi_the_real_93]

My point isn't exactly about scaling; I can agree with Kirlia being 7-A. I had understood that you meant Kirlia is 1/10 of Gardevoir because Farigiraf is 10x than Girafarig. From how I interpreted the main message, I thought you meant that since Girafarig has a 10x amp with the Evo, then the evolution of Kirlia should follow a similar ratio.

I agree with you

 

[Emerald]

My point isn't exactly about scaling; I can agree with Kirlia being 7-A. I had understood that you meant Kirlia is 1/10 of Gardevoir because Farigiraf is 10x than Girafarig. From how I interpreted the main message, I thought you meant that since Girafarig has a 10x amp with the Evo, then the evolution of Kirlia should follow a similar ratio.

Yea, I kinda worded it wrong.

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

Seems fine to me

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[Imaginym]

What is needed here?

 

[koopa3144]

What is needed here?

The CRT needs staff approval still.

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[koopa3144]

Bump, I have added my Riolu line profile revision onto the crt.

 

[SamanPatou]

I'm not sure if Faragiraf's 10x amp can be scaled to general stats, as it is said to be an amp to his mental waves alone, which can mean power and or other factors honestly. But if it's been accepted in another thread as a valid tier, then I don't think this is the right place to discuss it, whether it is correct or not.

I'd remove the reference to Piplup in Ralts's profile, since anime Piplup isn't used for scaling anymore, and I'd note somewhere that the indexed mon is meant to be either a trained or a fully "leveled/developed/whatever Pokemon, reason why it can go toe to toe with mons of equal stage who are technically supposed to be stronger in terms of average individuals.

I always saw Double Team as Afterimage Creation rather than Illusions, especially after newer games (4th gen onwards) started making direct reference to them being a product of high speed.

Purification in Gardevoir's P&A hasn't been bolded.
I'm not sure Gardevoir's actually resistant to gravity, it can simply overcome the natural pull through telekinesis, so I'd replace the resistance with Levitation (as in [[Flight|Levitation]])

Do we have any clear reference for Magnemite and Pichu's speed? Their profile doesn't link to anything.

I'd make it clear that Gardevoir's LS is through telekinesis, while its physical remains unknown.

Superhuman stamina is too much for the justification given honestly, peak human is already more than generous.

I wouldn't scale their fighting skill to Machop and Machamp, as they compete through entirely different methods. You can be the most competent fighter ever but you would still be powerless against a dog.
Same goes for Alakazam scaling, being super intelligent is its own peculiarity, simply being a psychic type isn't reason for scaling, look at all the other mons of the same type who remain animalistic and such.

Same again for Riolu, I don't see why being a fighting type automatically makes you comparable to Machop's line, which acts according to its own behavior. Same for scaling to Alakazam and Dewott.

I'd swap Bone Manipulation for Weapon Creation, as it seemingly creates a bone-shaped aura construct, like in the anime, rather than using an actual bone.

Immunity to Poison has to be kept under the resistances, as we grant immunity only to extreme cases, such as a soulless character being immune to soul manipulation for obvious reasons, or an inorganic being to biological manip.
Lucario is still a biological being and fiction can be so bonkers to have poisons affecting whatever, even robots.

I don't see why Lucario's physical might is scaled to Meowstick, who explictly performs it via telekinesis. I can't think of an exact replacement out of the blue, but it still doesn't sound correct to me.

Lastly, their stamina feats need references.

 

[koopa3144]

I'd remove the reference to Piplup in Ralts's profile, since anime Piplup isn't used for scaling anymore, and I'd note somewhere that the indexed mon is meant to be either a trained or a fully "leveled/developed/whatever Pokemon, reason why it can go toe to toe with mons of equal stage who are technically supposed to be stronger in terms of average individuals.

Idk if this is needed cause it's already noted on the main Pokemon page.

All of our Pokémon species profiles assume the Pokémon is wild, Level 100 with perfect IVs, and know every possible move and skill without being trained. However, they can only have one of their abilities at a time.

I always saw Double Team as Afterimage Creation rather than Illusions, especially after newer games (4th gen onwards) started making direct reference to them being a product of high speed.

Done.

Purification in Gardevoir's P&A hasn't been bolded.

Fixed.

I'm not sure Gardevoir's actually resistant to gravity, it can simply overcome the natural pull through telekinesis, so I'd replace the resistance with Levitation (as in [[Flight|Levitation]])

I'll add the Levitation and add a possibly to the gravity resistance.

Do we have any clear reference for Magnemite and Pichu's speed? Their profile doesn't link to anything.

It isn't on profile but it comes from them being able to dodge electric attacks from what I've heard.

I wouldn't scale their fighting skill to Machop and Machamp, as they compete through entirely different methods. You can be the most competent fighter ever but you would still be powerless against a dog.

Same again for Riolu, I don't see why being a fighting type automatically makes you comparable to Machop's line, which acts according to its own behavior. Same for scaling to Alakazam and Dewott.

I mean its on the Pokémon Profile Standards that all Pokemon are comparable to the Machop line depending on stage and and 3rd evos to Alakazam.

Same goes for Alakazam scaling, being super intelligent is its own peculiarity, simply being a psychic type isn't reason for scaling, look at all the other mons of the same type who remain animalistic and such.

I'll take it out then.

I'd swap Bone Manipulation for Weapon Creation, as it seemingly creates a bone-shaped aura construct, like in the anime, rather than using an actual bone.

Done.

Immunity to Poison has to be kept under the resistances, as we grant immunity only to extreme cases, such as a soulless character being immune to soul manipulation for obvious reasons, or an inorganic being to biological manip.
Lucario is still a biological being and fiction can be so bonkers to have poisons affecting whatever, even robots.

Done.

I don't see why Lucario's physical might is scaled to Meowstick, who explictly performs it via telekinesis. I can't think of an exact replacement out of the blue, but it still doesn't sound correct to me.

Iirc its the only real Game Pokemon LS feat rn,

Lastly, their stamina feats need references.

Done.

 

[SamanPatou]

Idk if this is needed cause it's already noted on the main Pokemon page.

Maybe a note to reference such notion being in the verse page? Or maybe add "average" next to the mons it scales to.

It isn't on profile but it comes from them being able to dodge electric attacks from what I've heard.

Yeah, but a calc is still needed and we require proof of such electricity moving at a realistic speed.

I mean its on the Pokémon Profile Standards that all Pokemon are comparable to the Machop line depending on stage and and 3rd evos to Alakazam.

I see, I'll make a CRT to correct it.

Iirc its the only real Game Pokemon LS feat rn,

There are several actually, first of all Machamp lifting a mountain, but iirc it was left to it and those who specifically scale to it. There are some related to the HM Strength and maybe some dex entry could be calced, because as of now non-psychich mons shouldn't scale to Meowstick.

 

[koopa3144]

Maybe a note to reference such notion being in the verse page? Or maybe add "average" next to the mons it scales to.

Done.

Yeah, but a calc is still needed and we require proof of such electricity moving at a realistic speed.

Actually I miss remembered, Transonic is probably from them dodging sound based attacks but either way a calc is needed.

There are several actually, first of all Machamp lifting a mountain, but iirc it was left to it and those who specifically scale to it. There are some related to the HM Strength and maybe some dex entry could be calced, because as of now non-psychich mons shouldn't scale to Meowstick.

So should I just put Lucario's LS as unknown for now?

 

[Imaginym]

Maybe a note to reference such notion being in the verse page? Or maybe add "average" next to the mons it scales to.


Yeah, but a calc is still needed and we require proof of such electricity moving at a realistic speed.


I see, I'll make a CRT to correct it.


There are several actually, first of all Machamp lifting a mountain, but iirc it was left to it and those who specifically scale to it. There are some related to the HM Strength and maybe some dex entry could be calced, because as of now non-psychich mons shouldn't scale to Meowstick.

There is actually 1 that was considered notable.
It was also calculated surprisingly long ago:

I recall something about blog comments getting deleted en masse site-wide years ago, so that may be why it doesn't have comments. But this seems like at least a Priority 3 Calc to be evaluated, as it's for a semi-important statistic that's relevant for at least 1 species.

I need to pothole/pigeonhole/whatever this link or else the forum's system STUPIDLY turns the colon followed by the D in @DontTalk's VSBW Fandom username into a : D (No space.) emote, breaking the link.

In case they're relevant, other entries on the topic:

Ruby	Swampert is very strong. It has enough power to easily drag a boulder weighing more than a ton. This Pokémon also has powerful vision that lets it see even in murky water.

Frustratingly, IDK if this is a metric or imperial tonne; The English version uses imperial, but the original Japanese text uses metric.

Sapphire	Swampert predicts storms by sensing subtle differences in the sounds of waves and tidal winds with its fins. If a storm is approaching, it piles up boulders to protect itself.

Emerald	If it senses the approach of a storm and a tidal wave, it protects its seaside nest by piling up boulders. It swims as fast as a jet ski.

Y	It can swim while towing a large ship. It bashes down foes with a swing of its thick arms.

Scarlet	Its arms are hard as rock. With one swing, it can break an enormous boulder into pieces.
Violet	Swampert’s arms are rock-hard. With one swing, they can batter down Swampert’s foes. This Pokémon makes its nest on beautiful beaches.

Who knows how relevant that is, though. Also, for some reason, the calc isn't linked on Swampert's own profile. I'd assume because of lack of evaluations verifying its usability; Even if it was evaluated as acceptable in the past, it might not look good if there's no evaluation present any more.


1 other thing is that Swampert does this while swimming; Water Pokemon tend to be better when in water than not for a lot of their feats, it seems.
Ergo, we don't know if Swampert is stronger while swimming than it is while not swimming, & if so, is that its peak, or is it being boosted?


On the topic of 1st stage LS, I forget where Class K comes from (Using Strength, maybe?) if we ever need a backup feat, Machop can throw 100 adult humans.

Y	Its whole body is composed of muscles. Even though it's the size of a human child, it can hurl 100 grown-ups.
Omega Ruby	Machop's muscles are special—they never get sore no matter how much they are used in exercise. This Pokémon has sufficient power to hurl a hundred adult humans.

Sword	Its whole body is composed of muscles. Even though it's the size of a human child, it can hurl 100 grown-ups.

IDK if it's valid to do so, but even 100 average adult humans would be 5,000 kg or more, & the LS rating for throwing them may be higher when accounting for force, which I recall seeing done in some calcs.

 

[SamanPatou]

Actually I miss remembered, Transonic is probably from them dodging sound based attacks but either way a calc is needed.

Yes, also because "missing" an attack in-game can mean a whole lot of stuff, instead of simple dodge.

So should I just put Lucario's LS as unknown for now?

Let's see if we can figure something out first.

Frustratingly, IDK if this is a metric or imperial tonne; The English version uses imperial, but the original Japanese text uses metric.

We should go by japanese standards.

Who knows how relevant that is, though. Also, for some reason, the calc isn't linked on Swampert's own profile. I'd assume because of lack of evaluations verifying its usability; Even if it was evaluated as acceptable in the past, it might not look good if there's no evaluation present any more.

It should be redone honestly.

1 other thing is that Swampert does this while swimming; Water Pokemon tend to be better when in water than not for a lot of their feats, it seems.
Ergo, we don't know if Swampert is stronger while swimming than it is while not swimming, & if so, is that its peak, or is it being boosted?

Also true.

On the topic of 1st stage LS, I forget where Class K comes from (Using Strength, maybe?) if we ever need a backup feat, Machop can throw 100 adult humans.
IDK if it's valid to do so, but even 100 average adult humans would be 5,000 kg or more, & the LS rating for throwing them may be higher when accounting for force, which I recall seeing done in some calcs.

I have some suspicions on Strength because its specifically related to learning that move, meaning that knowing it makes the Pokemon sensibly stronger, since at the end of the day is just a push.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, also considering that I should check the entries out, but the some Mons are stated to be not particularly strong physically, just like others are addressed as very strong, so finding a common point is difficult to the scaling not being linear.
For example, an average Machop can very well be physically stronger than even a Mega Alakazam, who maintains its frail body going by dex entries.

Anyway, aside from Mons that are stated to be physically weak, we might find an average superhuman for those mons that learn some kind of physical moves which would require them to perform muscular activity and are supposed to lift even heavyweight Mons or fling heavy objects like the Iron Ball.

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[koopa3144]

Bump

 

[Imaginym]

What's to be done here?

 

[koopa3144]

What's to be done here?

This still needs staff approval.

 

[koopa3144]

Bumpo

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

looks good

 

[koopa3144]

Bump, I added Groudon's Profile revision to the CRT. I also added little icons for the Mons cause why not.

 

[Imaginym]

Hopefully we can get some more Staff evaluation & approval.