[R3M2] Frogman & Hecate vs DIO & Clover [0-0-0]

[VeneficaAuthor]

Based on what? Dio has 3 methods to do so. Resisting one method isn't a free pass for another method.

Frogman's body can fight without thinking, cells have their own backup intelligence and their consciousness can be held within red laser aura. Further stages (like stage3 capable of holding consciousness within red laser aura alone, transfer energy + information remotely between their cells, and compress the energy into super small objects/body pieces) show to transport memories/experience/big amounts of power via simple blood cell, or even atoms. Unless these methods can effect something like an 'aura', he shouldn't be able to effect frogman

So? Freezing like, causes cellular decay. He has to actually survive it or be cognizant enough to do that after the fact. Just because he can emit high heat, doesn't mean he can do so to negate freezing if said freezing ***** him up to a point he's completely incaped.

'With their body composed of supercells adjusted to their soul & mind, Laser Frogmen can transform most % of their body into specific body parts, such as muscles for a punch, or a brain while thinking, granting them an immense advantage in any activity they are doing. Supercells are further showing a potential to change back from being weakened or transmuted into stone and different materials, as long as Frogman's brain/thinking commanding works.'

This information is from Stage 1, and as this is Stage 4, the proficiency is easily hundreds of times more proficient. Frogman not only resists it anyway, but can also just change back 'cellular decay' or whatever.

Time Stop. Is his go to. TW exists.

All of Frogman's stuff works in time stop, it was one of the very first things said here.

'He still has many Red Laser spells he can summon & use through his mind (which still operates), featuring A.T. shields, portals, Laser Storm, and much more. As these can be spammed in numbers (it's stage 4 with over 20K years of mastery), I can see Frogman very likely successfully defending against Dio in stopped time (even when saving energy and not moving).'

Dio doesn;'t have transmutation, he has biomanip.

That's even easier for Frogman to resist given the information above. He can essentially replace his entire outer body through self-biological manipulation and grow immense amounts of new/custom body parts, and if Dio does this to clones he risks having it transferred back to himself (Frogman would activate precog and be able to see Dio's abilities, considering his intellect, there's no way he wouldn't activate transferal on his first clones), something he has no resistance to.

If their brain/thinking works is the problem, most of Dio's shit effects one's cognitive ability.

I only see two instances of it on the profile, but Frogman can grow other brains if such a thing is necessary. I'm also not convinced Dio would be able to affect Frogman this way if he just holds his consciousness within his aura, especially considering frogman can fight at the same capacity without actually thinking in the first place

Not how this works.
"Shouldn't be a problem" is not "it won't be a problem".

Fine, it won't be a problem then. He can use TP Deferoid if Dio manages to do the 'vampire essence' thing, which the profile says is what turns people to zombies.

Rewind is useless if he's been made a zombie, at that point he becomes an ally. Backup clones coo, why can't Dio do that to them too? The fight is going to be in time stop at basically all times. Frogman, as established early in thread, can't just do whatever in time stop. You're acting like he'd have all these options out and set up, when really, he's never gonna get the chance.

Not if such a thing would be rewound first, not to mention it's highly unlikely he'd become a zombie. Plus it's literally said he can spam Red Laser stuff in stopped time without burning stamina to actually move, and this includes R.L. portals and such (in Stage 4 capable of warping 20000KM away with no charge). Frogman has astonishing accuracy and is exceedingly beyond Dio's own intellect (without even mentioning his thinking is thousands times faster than his body), and The World can't protect him from all of it. If Dio is gonna try affecting all the clones, he'll become a zombie himself via damage transferal.

Rewind isn't an issue if freezing incaps, one of several mindhax incaps, or he's made an ally, or...

I don't see any of them being an issue. I've already mentiond the mind stuff, which I only actully see two of on the profile. I guess the third one is his fearhax, which Frogman also resists. The FU unit's destiny is to face foes millions and millions of times stronger in AP, inclduing towering ones like the Purple Skeletons, who posseses fear auras/precense and numerous hax spells on top of this. Frogman could also empathic manip himself and Hecate to prevent fear sheninigans.

Class G actually, just hasn't been updated, atm Dio is 5 digit Class M anyhow based on a previous thread, though the 5 digit Class M feat has also been recalced to about 170000 tons.

Well, luckily Frogman's ally is Class Z and will assist him. He can communicate with her through telepathy and her resistance to time stop has way less strings attached, so she can actually move and act completely normally.

Up to what extent, I want hard values.

Stage 5 Frogman, the next evolution, is completely beyond the likes of Gunnix (Class E), who easily transport FU nuke rockets and yellow crate-boxes in FU XXL-Hybrid tanks, which allow the storing of a theoretically unlimited count of items, some being stated to weigh more than planet's total athmoshpheres. Considering Stage 4 Frogman and Gunnix are both 4th stage evolkutions, such a thing is easily achieved. There are ten stages total of Frogman, reaching higher than Stage 5 LS would be overkill considering these facts

Also didn't even comment on the fact Dio can just like, bypass literally all of that and instant kill by draining his life force.

It won't be a problem. Frogman's true existense lies in his Soul-Core, their Soul Cores (where the AI degree is located) possess Red Laser resistances. Red Laser Crystals/Soul Crystals show to possess immense quantum of resistances against non-close willpower-connected attacks/other negative influences, being trained to case-by-case seemingly downscale them at the very lowest concept, the 0th dimension, passively. Regrown crystals having done this against millions of techniques / their uncountably layered and negation-focused versions are said to have established an 'inner world perception of the outside world.' This makes the core itself essentially invulnerable to all of Dio's hax, but rthe body itself is still vulnerable. The best way to defeat Frogman is to wear his body and force the core into Self-BFR protections, and continue beating Frogman as he returns until the stamina is gone, but Clover's own resets complicate this greatly since he'd just be restoring Frogman back to square 1 every time

That's cool and all except Clover's time rewind outclasses his by far, whom is actively aiding Dio.
Prove Frogman can even retain any of this knowledge or plan to compensate after a potent "rewind" like RESET?

Even if he can't, Dio wouldn't either so they'd do the same things to each other until the end of time.

I did say DIO could do that. Plus the 10 meter distance at the start means DIO's 10 meter range will prove immediately effective in terms of spawning The World right in front of Frogman.

This assumes Dio could overcome Frogman's reaction, which is extrmely unlikely. Just as easily as Dio would spawn The World, Frogman can spawn R.L portals and get a significant range away (or, if The World actually does succesfully get to and destroy the Frogman body, considering his first move is to summon clones the backup would take affect, which is a Type 4 immortality) and THEN he could portal, alongside this summoning a line of AT Shielding between Frogman and the portals at a microscopic distance between each other to further complicate Dio's action. FU Android’s (and Frogmen, being superior to those, obviously have superior versions as well) have reactions far surpassing body movements due to mind in soul Crystals operating faster, useful to summon stuff like portals in critical moments.

Dio and Clover also both lack a resistance to fear manipulation, and Stage 4 Frogman has an aura which not only induces feelings of respect in those aura, but also has a terrifying sound even without activating extra stuff. But that's nothing, besides a reset I don't see any defense they'd have for this:

• Conceptual Fear - Manual activation. Upon detecting Frogman by any sense, the more Sin-Meter the observer has, the more severe Fear Manipulation is caused to them. Fear Manip. resistance is nearly not enough to prevent the symptoms (slowness, stun, tendency to run), as this power creates own consciousness in beings cells and very molecules, causing them to tremble in fear. Even Inanimate objects are forced to feel this, by gaining temporary instinctive intelligence.

Then name me a way in which Asunaven can actually beat Hecate and Frogman. Furthermore, name me a character in this Tournament who could feasibly beat Hecate. Because Clover would lose to Goku Black or Max's luck button I'll tell you that much. You even admitted yourself that Cobalt, a character who is weaker overall and in a much worse position than Hecate, basically counters everything Asunaven have, and she only lost on a technicality because Destiny got taken out. If Asuna and Javen combined can't win against Hecate, who really can?

Literally Cobalt lol. And how about Dio too? I think he could do it but Frogman's presence makes it more difficult, though Clover beating Hecate outright would be a big stretch. She's way above Hecate in hax and even pure stats so I still don't know where you are coming from. Plus I don't see Clover losing to either opponents considering what you've said about his reset capacity and timeline control. That stuff is above probability.

That, or nuke Clover with attacks fast and plentiful enough to get rid of them before they can think of using it.

I suppose that's possible considering Hecate's great danmaku capabilities and her immense ability to make attacks home in on opponents vias laser curving and anti-dodge tech (even preventing telekinesis from diverting her attacks even in slimy Mk. 1)

 

[SSB64]

but Clover's own resets complicate this greatly since he'd just be restoring Frogman back to square 1 every time

As mentioned, Clover could SAVE over any success DIO has and RESET the failures DIO has. This shouldn't be too big of a problem since Hecate can't permanently put down Clover.

Literally Cobalt lol

Ah yes. The only character in this Tourney who could beat your OP Veneficaverse character. Another of your OP Veneficaverse characters. Not the best argument you could've made for that to say the least.

And how about Dio too? I think he could do it

Dio, to my knowledge, has no resistance to the SOUL cannon, nor can he actually put down Clover for good. JoJo's strangely has few good Soul based Hax.

I suppose that's possible considering Hecate's great danmaku capabilities and her immense ability to make attacks home in on opponents vias laser curving and anti-dodge tech (even preventing telekinesis from diverting her attacks even in slimy Mk. 1)

Basically. She has really good Danmaku, and although Clover is no slouch in the Danmaku dodging department, and has even outlasted an enemy with multiple homing attacks at once from enemies he couldn't damage in the form of Axis (Perhaps there's someone else I'm forgetting), and also Zenith Martlet (If you've seen the fight, dodging that crap is really impressive), it isn't enough for Clover to dodge her Danmaku casually, although this can be somewhat mitigated by the Golden Coffee item or the Coffee Bean ammo, both of which make Clover quite a bit faster than normal. The latter actually boosts their Speed whenever they shoot.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Dio, to my knowledge, has no resistance to the SOUL cannon, nor can he actually put down Clover for good. JoJo's strangely has few good Soul based Hax.

He doesn't need to. Mind hax is enough.

 

[Chariot190]

Frogman's body can fight without thinking, cells have their own backup intelligence and their consciousness can be held within red laser aura.

2 of Dio's methods alter the cellular physiology of a target so...?

Further stages (like stage3 capable of holding consciousness within red laser aura alone, transfer energy + information remotely between their cells, and compress the energy into super small objects/body pieces) show to transport memories/experience/big amounts of power via simple blood cell, or even atoms. Unless these methods can effect something like an 'aura', he shouldn't be able to effect frogman

Actually, this is Part 3 Dio right? He has NPI himself, that can, in fact, interact with auras.
If it was Part 1 he'd be unable tho.

'With their body composed of supercells adjusted to their soul & mind, Laser Frogmen can transform most % of their body into specific body parts, such as muscles for a punch, or a brain while thinking, granting them an immense advantage in any activity they are doing. Supercells are further showing a potential to change back from being weakened or transmuted into stone and different materials, as long as Frogman's brain/thinking commanding works.'

This information is from Stage 1, and as this is Stage 4, the proficiency is easily hundreds of times more proficient. Frogman not only resists it anyway, but can also just change back 'cellular decay' or whatever.

Why does he resist it? It doesn't just decay, it literally alters the very species.
"hundreds of times" is just useless yap if it isn't backed by feats.

All of Frogman's stuff works in time stop, it was one of the very first things said here.

It was also said it takes extensive energy.

When the fight is going to be, effectively, in a constant state of stopped time, I want proof he can do everything you're claiming without issue, contrary to the alleged fact time stop is draining on him.

'He still has many Red Laser spells he can summon & use through his mind (which still operates), featuring A.T. shields, portals, Laser Storm, and much more. As these can be spammed in numbers (it's stage 4 with over 20K years of mastery), I can see Frogman very likely successfully defending against Dio in stopped time (even when saving energy and not moving).'

Except TW exists, and Frogman lacks the capability to interact or even perceive it. Literally just use TW as a shield. Or as mentioned, manhandle with LS.

That's even easier for Frogman to resist given the information above.

The information is quite literally insufficient given Dio's biomanip works not only at a cellular level, aka Frogman's negation of it being "well he can control his cells", is invalidated, but even the DNA.

He can essentially replace his entire outer body through self-biological manipulation and grow immense amounts of new/custom body parts, and if Dio does this to clones he risks having it transferred back to himself (Frogman would activate precog and be able to see Dio's abilities, considering his intellect, there's no way he wouldn't activate transferal on his first clones), something he has no resistance to.

Already a proble, "outer body", Dio's biomanip can effect the whole body to be a cellular level, altering the very species if need be.

The moment your argument hinged on cellular body control, it already fell through.

Dio resists all his own abilities and can walk off being blown to bits so, not really a problem.

I only see two instances of it on the profile, but Frogman can grow other brains if such a thing is necessary.

No he can't? If his brain and conscious is compromised, why would he be able to grow another? He wouldn't think to do that because he's a slave now. The funny cell thing, as stated, is a nonfactor because several of Dio's options effect down to that level anyway.

I'm also not convinced Dio would be able to affect Frogman this way if he just holds his consciousness within his aura,

NPI.

especially considering frogman can fight at the same capacity without actually thinking in the first place

So can several every Stand users. And his stuff works just fine on them.

Also you seem to be ignoring the fact it doesn't matter if he has bootleg uktra instinct, if his now compromised mind goes "damn, im on Dio's side now".

Fine, it won't be a problem then. He can use TP Deferoid if Dio manages to do the 'vampire essence' thing, which the profile says is what turns people to zombies.

He can also do so by just draining their life energy.

And then what? Frogman's profile literally says that has a cool down, he gets rid of it once, then Dio does it again. Because TW has him in a chokelock.

Not if such a thing would be rewound first,

Why would it be rewound if he's already effected, the stuff I'm mentioning like, literally makes him a slave that acts in Dio's benefit, he wouldn't undo it if he's affected?

not to mention it's highly unlikely he'd become a zombie.

Again, if it's cellular yap, it'd work just fine because 1. Life force drain can be used inturn. 2. The essence would work because dude's ability has a cooldown. 3. Zombification is cellular.

Also unlikely isn't "will not", I want actual evidence not "well it might not".

and this includes R.L. portals and such (in Stage 4 capable of warping 20000KM away with no charge).

Clover LOADS. Or Dio just like, immortalities it, idk, dude's profile is messy.

Frogman has astonishing accuracy

Reminder The World has accuracy beyond Star Platinum, who's accuracy is so good, it could sense a sneak attack from a cell-sized enemy, from behind.

They both have good accuracy lad.

and is exceedingly beyond Dio's own intellect (without even mentioning his thinking is thousands times faster than his body),

Nice try, speed is equal. And if it wasn't, Dio would blitz the shit out of him because he's blitz level over 25,000c. And, The World's speed exceeds Dio's, so if you pull the "only combat speed is equalized" thing, Dio's own thought speed exceeds his combat ability (Could react to a pissed off Star Platinum) and TW is like a blitz level above Dio himself.

and The World can't protect him from all of it.

Why? You just pulled the funny speed discrepency thing, in which case, TW literally does because he's >>> Dio in combat speed, and >>> Frogman.

If Dio is gonna try affecting all the clones, he'll become a zombie himself via damage transferal.

This is just dumb, no offense. "Wow the dude who literally has every thing that makes a zombie, a zombie, except way worse, would be turned into a zombie".

Yeah, and then what? It'd be so useless Dio wouldn't even realize he got something sent back on him because he's ALREADY got that shit.

I don't see any of them being an issue.

Your argument hinges on aura, which Dio and TW can effect. And cell stuff, which Dio can also effect.

I've already mentiond the mind stuff, which I only actully see two of on the profile.

Hypnosis. Spores (cell sized btw)/Flesh Buds (same type of mindhax for these two), Life Drain/Essence.
Three different types, using different mechanics to do so.

You brought up fear hax below tho, so ig 4.

I guess the third one is his fearhax, which Frogman also resists.

No but good point. Dio's fearhax is layered. TW is stated in 6251 to have the most frightening aura of any Stand in existence, even without manifesting. And was able to make dudes who res fear hax and have ample degrees of supernatural will, piss themselves, freeze up, etc.

Unless Frogman has exceptionally potent fearhax res, Dio can literally just stand there and do nothing and incap him.

The FU unit's destiny is to face foes millions and millions of times stronger in AP, inclduing towering ones like the Purple Skeletons, who posseses fear auras/precense and numerous hax spells on top of this. Frogman could also empathic manip himself and Hecate to prevent fear sheninigans.

Why? He'd be to frightened to do anything. Unless he had prior knowledge to do so before Dio whims TW's menacing on.

And, as said, TW is directly stated t have the greatest fear hax of any Stand, and it causes those with supernatural will and already res to fearhax, to either become so scared they can't think of anything, think they're gonna die, and just stand there struggling not to vomit. Or they run away.

It isn't an AP thing, it's flatout stated to be aura, hax, and activates even if Dio himself isn't around or with manifesting The World fully. Arguing "he isnt scared when fighting dude with big stat gap" isn't an argument, and even then, wouldn't matter because Dio can fearhax dudes who don't flinch at fighting dudes like a million times stronger than themselves. Literally actually, the gap between Hermit Purple and some of the Stands in Part 3 is millions.

Well, luckily Frogman's ally is Class Z and will assist him. He can communicate with her through telepathy and her resistance to time stop has way less strings attached, so she can actually move and act completely normally.

Who is fighting Clover.

Also, this assumes he can even do that under the intense fear, or mindhax, or freezing.

Stage 5 Frogman, the next evolution, is completely beyond the likes of Gunnix (Class E), who easily transport FU nuke rockets and yellow crate-boxes in FU XXL-Hybrid tanks, which allow the storing of a theoretically unlimited count of items, some being stated to weigh more than planet's total athmoshpheres. Considering Stage 4 Frogman and Gunnix are both 4th stage evolkutions, such a thing is easily achieved. There are ten stages total of Frogman, reaching higher than Stage 5 LS would be overkill considering these facts

This feels like actually just loopholing the whole certain key thing
And he's gonna be able to do this before, ya know.

It won't be a problem. Frogman's true existense lies in his Soul-Core, their Soul Cores (where the AI degree is located) possess Red Laser resistances. Red Laser Crystals/Soul Crystals show to possess immense quantum of resistances against non-close willpower-connected attacks/other negative influences, being trained to case-by-case seemingly downscale them at the very lowest concept, the 0th dimension, passively. Regrown crystals having done this against millions of techniques / their uncountably layered and negation-focused versions are said to have established an 'inner world perception of the outside world.' This makes the core itself essentially invulnerable to all of Dio's hax, but rthe body itself is still vulnerable. The best way to defeat Frogman is to wear his body and force the core into Self-BFR protections, and continue beating Frogman as he returns until the stamina is gone, but Clover's own resets complicate this greatly since he'd just be restoring Frogman back to square 1 every time

Tldr the yap.

This assumes Dio could overcome Frogman's reaction,

I mean, he literally can because not only is speed equal, but he's normally ten fucktillion times quicker so pulling the "uhm in speed he's quicker-" thing ain't gonna fly.

which is extrmely unlikely. Just as easily as Dio would spawn The World, Frogman can spawn R.L portals and get a significant range away (or, if The World actually does succesfully get to and destroy the Frogman body, considering his first move is to summon clones the backup would take affect, which is a Type 4 immortality)

Time Stop, and given you keep going on about reaction speed =/= combat speed. TW is blitzing.

and THEN he could portal, alongside this summoning a line of AT Shielding between Frogman and the portals at a microscopic distance between each other to further complicate Dio's action.

TW can phase. TW can also literally just implant microscoping spores or essence as we see another Stand do with Dio's cells.
TW has beyond microscopic sight and precision as well, so getting stuff like that past is a nonissue.

FU Android’s (and Frogmen, being superior to those, obviously have superior versions as well) have reactions far surpassing body movements due to mind in soul Crystals operating faster, useful to summon stuff like portals in critical moments.

I will know point you to the fact Dio has a Stand that blitzes the shit out of both Frogman, even speed unequal, and Dio himself. Pulling the reaction > combat speed thing (in speed equal), is just shooting yourself in the foot because now Frogman just gets blitzed by TW.

Dio and Clover also both lack a resistance to fear manipulation, and Stage 4 Frogman has an aura which not only induces feelings of respect in those aura, but also has a terrifying sound even without activating extra stuff. But that's nothing, besides a reset I don't see any defense they'd have for this:

• Conceptual Fear - Manual activation. Upon detecting Frogman by any sense, the more Sin-Meter the observer has, the more severe Fear Manipulation is caused to them. Fear Manip. resistance is nearly not enough to prevent the symptoms (slowness, stun, tendency to run), as this power creates own consciousness in beings cells and very molecules, causing them to tremble in fear. Even Inanimate objects are forced to feel this, by gaining temporary instinctive intelligence.

The World, doesn't have layered NPI to effect it

Anyway, I don't see why Dio's own essentially passive fear aura wouldn't be enough to incap given the argument was basically "skeletons have fear aura" and "he can empath himself", which kinda only works if he isn't crippled by it to begin with.
Turning clones into allies is also a thing, cellular biomanip, etc.

Honestly, I don't like how most of the arguments also Frogman gets like a billion free turns, "he does this" "he also does that", etc, all while Clover is LOADING over any problematic thing and Dio saving over any thing Dio does that works. Even if Frogman has counters, Clover would just load till an interaction where Dio gets something off that sticks and Frogman didn't counter quick enough.
And let's not forget the speed gap, given apparently we're doing the funny speed equal thing, in which case TW just blitzes.

I'd also like to point out, when Dio takes in life force, he gets stat amped relative to said life force. Literally any blood at all, is going to roid Dio out.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

As mentioned, Clover could SAVE over any success DIO has and RESET the failures DIO has. This shouldn't be too big of a problem since Hecate can't permanently put down Clover.

Assuming he can get frogman despite frogman’s mind capacity, portal, AT shielding, clone shenanigans and extraordinary genius intellect, and if frogman can escape the initial encounter it would be far more difficult to accomplish things against him

Ah yes. The only character in this Tourney who could beat your OP Veneficaverse character. Another of your OP Veneficaverse characters. Not the best argument you could've made for that to say the least.

Bro… don’t you remember that cobalt lost? And I literally just said cobalt was more OP, and again, she LOST. Without frogman’s core resistances, he and Hecate would have lost to Max as well. And considering that, max also would have defeated cobalt and destiny. Possibly asunaven too. Your argument isn’t the best either lol

Dio, to my knowledge, has no resistance to the SOUL cannon, nor can he actually put down Clover for good. JoJo's strangely has few good Soul based Hax.

I was referring to Dio beating Hecate, which is entirely possibly in a 1v1 but now that you mention it frogman’s Red Saber has op soul based attacks, and considering its range, the ten meter starting distance is a double edged sword

Basically. She has really good Danmaku, and although Clover is no slouch in the Danmaku dodging department, and has even outlasted an enemy with multiple homing attacks at once from enemies he couldn't damage in the form of Axis (Perhaps there's someone else I'm forgetting), and also Zenith Martlet (If you've seen the fight, dodging that crap is really impressive), it isn't enough for Clover to dodge her Danmaku casually, although this can be somewhat mitigated by the Golden Coffee item or the Coffee Bean ammo, both of which make Clover quite a bit faster than normal. The latter actually boosts his Speed whenever he shoots.

True enough but Hecate also has batshit precision, even with zero mech enhancements (Threw a needle into a scientist's eye from across the Monarch Institution's main lab, which is a 150 by 150 meter complex) and the golden mech is far upgraded from her slimy Mk. 2, which is beyond Slimy Mk. 1, which is beyond her first mech, which was already advanced enough to be considered a ‘marvel’ by another scientific genius. Her ability to land a even a single attack is pretty insane at this point, and then considering how much danmaku she can use (again combined with her anti-dodge tech), and her speed amps (from 5 times speed to 50, although these speeds make it hard for her to control) and with intelligence allow her to bombarde clover in the optimal way

 

[Chariot190]

Assuming he can get frogman despite frogman’s mind capacity, portal, AT shielding, clone shenanigans and extraordinary genius intellect, and if frogman can escape the initial encounter it would be far more difficult to accomplish things against him

LOAD+TW blitz.

I was referring to Dio beating Hecate, which is entirely possibly in a 1v1 but now that you mention it frogman’s Red Saber has op soul based attacks, and considering its range, the ten meter starting distance is a double edged sword

Dio, (oddly?) can survive soul destruction ***** him up real bad to the point he's incapped for hours but he did survive the destruction of The World.
Also to destroy The World, you need layered spiritual NPI.

(Threw a needle into a scientist's eye from across the Monarch Institution's main lab, which is a 150 by 150 meter complex) and the golden mech is far upgraded from her slimy Mk. 2, which is beyond Slimy Mk. 1, which is beyond her first mech, which was already advanced enough to be considered a ‘marvel’ by another scientific genius. Her ability to land a even a single attack is pretty insane at this point, and then considering how much danmaku she can use (again combined with her anti-dodge tech), and her speed amps (from 5 times speed to 50, although these speeds make it hard for her to control) and with intelligence allow her to bombarde clover in the optimal way

Why can't TW just take care of that, it has the precision and senses to effortlessly react to microscopic sneak attacks from behind? Given it's outright stated number 1 in precision with Plat, and has all the same precision and sense capabilities as him but greater.
Hell even Stands with magnitudes less precision can react to sneak attacks from 180m away from behind such as Sticky Fingers.

Though in regards to Clover, I don't really think that's enough. Clover doesn't need to see every attack to load, they just need to know attacks coming at all. The fact Dio exists and can just go "hey btw random projectile about to hit you in the ass at 8'o clock".

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

I didn’t make frogman’s profile, froggy would be much better to answer many of the questions.

It was also said it takes extensive energy.

It takes his energy to move at all. Frogman is preforming these actions with his mind, ie, not moving

Except TW exists, and Frogman lacks the capability to interact or even perceive it. Literally just use TW as a shield. Or as mentioned, manhandle with LS.

I dont think the world would be able to shield everything he does while also attempting attacks

This is just dumb, no offense. "Wow the dude who literally has every thing that makes a zombie, a zombie, except way worse, would be turned into a zombie".

I get where you’re coming from but he has two whole resistances on his profile and neither include the zombie stuff or damages being transferred back into him either

Who is fighting Clover.

Hecate can easily danmaku clover while dedicating some of the ballast towards Dio (note, Dio, not The World). She’s fought and defeated multiple haxxed enemies all at once, two opponents are nothing new.

Tldr the yap.

Frogman’s core has uncountable layers of resistance to virtually everything, developed over billions and billions of years of constant adaptation. But if that’s nebulous for you, froggy can far more easily clarify this.

Honestly, I don't like how most of the arguments also Frogman gets like a billion free turns, "he does this" "he also does that", etc, all while Clover is LOADING over any problematic thing and Dio saving over any thing Dio does that works. Even if Frogman has counters, Clover would just load till an interaction where Dio gets something off that sticks and Frogman didn't counter quick enough.
And let's not forget the speed gap, given apparently we're doing the funny speed equal thing, in which case TW just blitzes.

It’s because frogman canonically does dozens of things at once. If you’ll look at other frogmen threads you’ll see that even lower stages can do similar, and this is stage 4, developed for 20K+ years to do all of that but way better. Speed is indeed equal, I was just pointing out the status of frogman’s mind and how that usually functions relative to his body (at least, it was used that way when Gunnix fought Hecate in a different tourney). Froggy can clarify this stuff as well

 

[SSB64]

He doesn't need to. Mind hax is enough.

TBH, regardless of whether Clover can or can't beat DIO, the fact remains that there are multiple characters in this Tourney who could beat this seemingly impossible ability. Meanwhile, I fail to see any characters other than Cobalt and Clover who can get around Hecate's Hax and genius, so if Clover is too broken to be included in this Tournament, then it stands to reason that Hecate should also be disqualified by similar logic since not only does she have less foes who can beat her, but the only two characters who has a chance against her is another of Venefica's own characters, and one that was disqualified for being too broken.

Bro… don’t you remember that cobalt lost?

And you seemingly forgot how she lost. She lost because Destiny was killed, and so she lost by technicality of it being a Stalemate in Asunaven's favor.

I was referring to Dio beating Hecate, which is entirely possibly in a 1v1

This could actually be a big problem for Frogate. Clover would inevitably try telling DIO to go after Hecate instead while Clover tries their hand at Frogman, who's Danmaku doesn't seem as bad as Hecate's at a glance.

BTW, I completely forgot that Clover has the SOUL dash, which can not only allow Clover to phase through objects and gain a burst of speed (Adding yet another layer of speed boost that Clover possesses), shatter barriers that can otherwise bypass resistances to their SOUL cannon (This also seems to tie in with that shaky argument of Clover being able to perceive things down to a near stop during their fight with Zenith Martlet.) Finally, they do all of their fights while bound by the limits of the in-game SOUL box. In a neutral battleground, I doubt Clover would have this limited movement.

True enough but Hecate also has batshit precision, even with zero mech enhancements (Threw a needle into a scientist's eye from across the Monarch Institution's main lab, which is a 150 by 150 meter complex) and the golden mech is far upgraded from her slimy Mk. 2, which is beyond Slimy Mk. 1, which is beyond her first mech, which was already advanced enough to be considered a ‘marvel’ by another scientific genius. Her ability to land a even a single attack is pretty insane at this point, and then considering how much danmaku she can use (again combined with her anti-dodge tech), and her speed amps (from 5 times speed to 50, although these speeds make it hard for her to control) and with intelligence allow her to bombarde clover in the optimal way

Considering that Zenith Martlet can both fire tons of high speed semi-homing projectiles while also swinging at Clover with her claws Which actually spawn directly on top of Clover), and yet Clover is still able to dodge all of that at LV 19, precision alone wouldn't be enough to justify constant hits on Clover. And even then, Clover dies, and does the fight again, remembering where the attacks showed up and when after enough times doing it.

Finally, while this is technically Pacifist, I'm willing to count it since Clover is much more skilled and powerful here than in that fight. He's able to endure a four phased long battle against an all-out, powered up Ceroba while also dodging nearly everything she could throw at him (The only attacks he couldn't dodge, he powered through, though this specifically seems to be a Pacifist Route only trait, so I won't count that endurance feat in particular)

 

[Chariot190]

I didn’t make frogman’s profile, froggy would be much better to answer many of the questions.

Not my concern nor did I say you did.

It takes his energy to move at all. Frogman is preforming these actions with his mind, ie, not moving

Which... Still leaves him extremely vulnerable?

Also a chunk of what you've said, is him moving, like unless I've somehow been misled, pretty sure controlling and altering one's physical cells is movement of the physical body, as just one example. Only the RL shit you said doesn't take energy, everything else, by proxy, does.

I dont think the world would be able to shield everything he does while also attempting attacks

Why not, he's several blitzes quicker.

I get where you’re coming from but he has two whole resistances on his profile and neither include the zombie stuff or damages being transferred back into him either

I mean, dog, he is literally already that.

It'd be like reflecting back being a human, onto a human. Literally useless.

And you're, right doesn't res damage trans, but, Dio also doesn't actually have that'd be lethal to himself, so it doesn't matter if he just shrugs it off.

Hecate can easily danmaku clover while dedicating some of the ballast towards Dio (note, Dio, not The World).

Note doesn't matter when TW like, ya know, actively protects Dio automatically without any conscious input from Dio, much like Star Platinum does Jotaro.

She’s fought and defeated multiple haxxed enemies all at once, two opponents are nothing new.

And Dio's done the same. It doesn't matter how many she's fought if they have different toolkits. This is like arguing because Batman could stomp 10000 dudes at once, he'd be able to neg diff Flash and Green Lantern at the same time. Yeah nah, not how this works.

Clover is an absolutely ridiculous hurdle to overcome, the fact Dio has random bullshit supporting Clover, doesn't help.

Frogman’s core has uncountable layers of resistance to virtually everything, developed over billions and billions of years of constant adaptation. But if that’s nebulous for you, froggy can far more easily clarify this.

Did you really previously say "man basic causality manip to much" just to go "btw this dude has ten fucktrillion res layers for everything ever and uhm ya cnat hit it and uhm".

Like man be real.

It’s because frogman canonically does dozens of things at once.

Not how this works. It doesn't matter if he wants to, plans to, and will do so if given a chance, the problem is none of this is a free action.
In the time he does something, his foes, too, will do something. Is what I'm trying to say, the whole "lmao fast mind" argument doesn't even work because Dio also has exponentially quicker reaction and perception speed compared to his combat, and TW is that on crack.

If you’ll look at other frogmen threads you’ll see that even lower stages can do similar, and this is stage 4, developed for 20K+ years to do all of that but way better. Speed is indeed equal, I was just pointing out the status of frogman’s mind and how that usually functions relative to his body (at least, it was used that way when Gunnix fought Hecate in a different tourney). Froggy can clarify this stuff as well

Development and application are not the same thing, at that point I may as well argue Dio could one up Joseph, who could one up extraordinary geniuses with over 100000 years of experience.
Not how this works. Especially because speed is equal, but, as you so kindly pointed out, speed equal is combat speed right, with the other facets equalized relative to that no? In which case, TW is blitzing Frogman, like, 1000x over.

Anyway, about that Fear Hax and Life Drain.

 

[SSB64]

Without frogman’s core resistances, he and Hecate would have lost to Max as well. And considering that, max also would have defeated cobalt and destiny. Possibly asunaven too. Your argument isn’t the best either lol

The point I was making was that Clover isn't any more broken than Hecate, and thus shouldn't be disqualified because of their ability. Plus, Asuna can phase through anything the Luck Button could pull or just outright dodge it with her insane Danmaku dodging, so they'd be fine. Oh yeah. And Hecate could probably seal Max with Golden Bubbles or disable the Luck Button if she has some sort of EMP or matter-destroying tech.

who could one up extraordinary geniuses with over 100000 years of experience

More specifically, the Pillarmen. Your intellect would have to be pretty absurd to keep up with and outsmart beings like them. Plus, keep in mind that Pillarmen can absorb anything they come into contact with, so they'd have to outsmart someone with Millenia of combat experience, and who could, with a touch, instantly absorb and kill you. Plus, the last one they fought was Ultimate Kars, who is that on steroids. (BTW, Chariot190. Thanks for helping me in terms of covering for Dio.)

 

[SSB64]

Plus, if all else fails, Clover has one more trick which Hecate and Frogman have no hope of getting past.