Quite Big Important Isekai Mahou Revisions

[Celestial_Pegasus]

What source are you talking about? If it's The Source, that's something that's said to be the beginning and end of everything and exist far deeper in the abyss than Alshuna who can warp the astral plane on a whim. Nobody scales to that except Suimei since he is fated by The Source with fulfilling the wish of every being in existence.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yes. I’m talking about that Source. I’ve also heard that everyone and their mother are getting 2-A haxes due to drawing from it, which I disagree with due to what I said above.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

That's not how it works. The only who relates to the Source is Suimei, whose destiny is so great that even an explicit 2-A being can't overcome.

Everyone having 2-A haxes is due to how abilities work in this verses. All humans in the isekai world are blessed by the Elements which exists in a higher dimensional plane and also encompasses the entire universe.

When a person uses magic, they send mana to the Elements which gives them it's power, note even the castor has control over their spells when they are being actualized, something like that, basically the Elements are what's in control. Magic is also explicitly stated to be conceptual, you can't put out a magical fire with water, lightning magic is lightning speed, light magic below light space rewinds space etc cause it's all from the Elements. Despite that rank disparity extinction shuts down the Elements.

Dark magic is stated to be the thoughts, hatred, resentment etc that exist within the elements, that's what a dark magic user uses, and it's stated to be a power, that's on another plane of existence, ppl even use it to summon concepts from the astral plane (a realm which contains all creation).

Suimei destroys concepts from the plane, Suimei bfrs Gods like Alshuna who is 2-A back to the plane etc etc.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I’m not taking about Sumei. Also explain your point in layman’s terms in the future. Reading so much makes it confusing to get the basic point. But what I’m understanding is just the same thing I said from a different source.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Cal you came into this thread without even looking at the profiles and the scans on there, and expect me to explain things in layman's terms, this is a lot of information, cause this series is detailed with it's explanations about things, but you aren't even investing any effort to try to understand things, you just come in with a preconceived idea.

Anyway i will post scans about everything i am talking about. Of course it will probably be long, but it's not my fault if you aren't invested in this.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The Elements​

• Magic in the isekai world is something that can be used because of the concept known as the Elements, which surrounds the world itself. The Elements exists outside of the world and envelops it. Within it are the smaller concepts of fire, water, and the other named Elements. The mages of the world send mana there, and receive an attribute and a part of the spell from the Elements.
• The power of the Elements is the power of all creation. It is the source of anything and everything. The heat you feel when touched by fire. The cool, soothing sensation you feel when you touch water.
• Magic is inherent to the universe, and therefore to all intelligent life that inhabited it. Humans were unable to sever their bond with it any more than they could with their own history.
• Magic is the mysterious power of the Elements, mages borrow its power using Mana as the driving force, their chant called to the Elements, and which gives mages its power in the form of a spell.
• The Elements are the medium for the spells of mages. Thus the spells aren't based on chemical reactions or natural phenomena. It's conceptual thus you can't put out a magical fire with water.
• Once a spell is activated, The Elements themselves take control of it, it's not up to the castor This means when for example Rank Disparity Extinction happens, something every magician can do, that prevents magic from manifesting, they are negating The Elements themselves.[

Dark Magic​

• Dark magic is the resentment mixed into the Elements.
• Dark magic coagulates in the astral plane.
• The astral plane contains all creation.
• Liliana's dark magic brought a sinful figure into the external world. Liliana's dark magic brought a sinful figure into the external world. This thing is stated to be a concept within the astral plane. Suimei killed it.
• Lilana used dark magic on Suimei, Suimei then uses a charm to protect a god, in order to block malice from a higher dimension.
• What do we know about dark magic it comes from a realm that contains all creation, so it coming from a higher dimension is obvious. But in addition to this Suimei used an ability meant to protect a God. Here is Alshuna, a God, warping the astral plane on a whim., and here is Everything humans see is essentially just a pseudo-projection of reality. The objects they see are representations of forms, their true essences. This notion is called the theory of forms. This is blatantly the definition of type 2 concept manipulation, this was brought up when Suimei was discussion why Lefille became a child version of herself, his conclusion was basically that her representation of herself wasn't matching up with her form or something like that cause she used too much spiritual power.
• This theory of form stuff is relevant cause this means the verse operates by it and we have seen concepts be manipulated numerous times. For example, apparitions are conceptual existences which take the shape of monsters.
• Appartions are things magicians can kill.

Summary​

• Magic comes from the Elements, humans are all blessed by it, and send their mana to it then get it's power, said power is something The Elements has control over, not the castor. And this is something that still gets nulled by RDE.
• The Elements and Dark magic are on the same level of existence. Dark Magic explicitly uses a conceptual thing which resides in The Elements and a 2-A realm, and the power of dark magic users explicitly is stated to be from another plane, said magic still gets pass defensives meant to protect 2-A beings.
• Concepts abide by the theory of forms, which basically means a concept is something transcendent to reality. Magicians can destroy that.

Probably not inculding some things cause i have to leave now. But this is a brief explanation.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

“it then get it's power, said power is something The Elements has control over, not the castor.”
This seems like the only part that’s a counter to what I said. But obviously the Elements aren’t really controlling it lest it be a 2-A attack. It’s still relative to the power of the unleasher, but it’s out of their control once unleashed. Like Hiei’s Dragon of the Darkness Flame.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Just borrowing power from a higher-dimensional source in no way scales to said source without extra evidence, otherwise every W40K Psyker would be 1-A.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Dark magic still gets pass defensives meant to protect 2-A's. And it's explicitly said The Elements control the attacks once it's activated, that's not really debatable, this is said multiple times.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Can you prove that the elements abilities can manifest on a 2-A level in the lower reality? There is like so many verses where we don't accept abilities scaling directly to their source. Just nulling magic as it appears in reality isn't the same as nulling the elements in the astral plane. You yourself even mention that magic as it manifests in reality is a 'smaller concept'. The Conceptual manipulation is fine but it doesn't mean all his shit scales to 2-A stuff. The Elements 'controlling' the attack =/= scaling to their full abilities.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Why exactly would that scale to anything other than Dark Magic? And being controlled by something higher-dimensional also means nothing without extra evidence.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Blackcurrant91 Why would i have to prove that though? You are the one asserting that they can't manifest in lower reality. The Elements are the power of all creation, it envelops the world while existing outside of it, nothing has ever been said about it not being able to manifest in lower reality.

Only thing like that that's ever said is that God's don't directly interfere with the worlds, they first use followers and then after gaining a certain amount of followers, they can fully manifest in reality.

@HI3_or_bust Cause Magicians have natural resistances to dark magic, and Heroes also can't be affected by it cause of being blessed by The Elements and Alshuna (The Elements and Alshuna are what blessed them with magic in the first place too). Also again Dark Magic exists within The Elements, it doesn't make sense for only Dark Magic to scale.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I'm not saying they can't manifest in lower reality I'm saying you have to prove they manifest at their full potential in lower reality. Enveloping the world and existing outside of it means nothing. Tzeentch is the source of all magic in Warhammer Fantasy but I haven't tried to scale everyones powernull/hax to 2-B because of this because there is nothing to suggest Tzeentch can manifest his full power in a lower reality.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

In the first place, what we were arguing about was suppose to be the characters power null.

Lets say only Dark Magic is explicitly 2-A, Suimei stated against a high rank magician all he is capable of is useless. Suimei can use dark magic.

Meaning rank disparity extinction shuts down dark magic.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Dark magic still gets pass defensives meant to protect 2-A's.

It’s not strictly AP that gets pass the defensives though. It bypasses Dura.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The charm is suppose to protect Gods from an astral attack, astral attacks target the mind and soul, so it's suppose to block the durability bypassing.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I dont see what makes Dark Magic explicitly 2-A anyway. Characters having to reduce their power to exist in a lower reality is an incredibly common trope in fiction. Sourced from a realm higher then the multiverse=/=being able to manifest at a 2-A level in a lower reality. Does Suimei ever go to the Astral plane and null magic there? Is there anything to indicate Gods/entities from the Astral plane can manifest at their full power in a lower reality? because you have to assume the the opposite otherwise.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Dark magic harms a charm meant to protect a God, and has brought a concept from the astral plane into the world.

The only thing that's ever said about God's "reduce power" is that they can't really directly interfere with reality at first, that's why they get followers by showing up in their dreams, then once they get enough followers, they fully manifest into reality. It's stated a fully manifested God means gg, the world is done.

Suimei's bfr to astral plane is done via having a God half possessing him, that's what he uses to beat fully manifested Gods, an angel possess him and he erases God's from the world along with all their bonds (so they can't come back from their followers), then he erases them back to their natural conceptual state in the astral plane.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The charm is suppose to protect Gods from an astral attack, astral attacks target the mind and soul, so it's suppose to block the durability bypassing.

I’ve yet to see a single fiction where attacking the soul is actually negating durability as opposed to just being a different target. Only time soul attacking is negating Dura is if it’s destroying in one hit or stealing.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Dark magic bypassed Suimei shields and made physical defense useless, how is that not durability negation?

Not to mention said shields are meant to protect against magic which in and of itself can't be defended by physical means cause it's conceptual.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Unless it has caused someone to die immediately upon contact without durability factoring in, conceptual is just a fancy word.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Cal, stop cherrypicking. And you dont need to kill someone instantly to be considered dura neg

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I must ask, since I saw this brought up in other threads, but why would the whole "weaker dudes can't cast magic" with specific cases like this? Like, magic is cast by sending it up to higher beings, so for other verses they would either send their mana to another being or not send it to anyone and just do it personally, and in both cases they would not fit the very clear definition and rules of the magic of this verse.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@The_real_cal_howard This is cherry picking, and conceptual isn't a fancy word, magic blatantly comes from a type 2 concept and is called conceptual hence you can't block it with physical means nor put out a magical fire with water. Not to mention concepts in this verse are confirmed to work off Plato's theory of form.

This is all Irrelevant whether it instantly kills people or not, Dark Magic again gets pass something meant to protect Gods. Oh but Gods can't manifest their full abilities within reality you say? Blatantly contradicted by the fact that if Gods fully manifest, the world is doomed, that's why Enforcer of the thousand Nights find cults trying to manifest Gods so dangerous, and try to prevent them from successfully summoning a God, but to Suimei it's child play, cause he can himself have a God possess him in reality, to erase other Gods from existence and send them back to the astral plane.

Like i can agree with not scaling everybody to the full scope of The Elements, and just say their power comes from a higher dimensional thing, but denying that Dark Magic qualifies for being a hax that effects Gods, and said hax is useless against Rank Disparity Extinction, i have to disagree with.

@Ricsi-viragosi Magic is cast by sending mana to The Elements which then gives them power. However The Elements are just 1 law, it's the law that controls phenomenon in the isekai world, but it's not the only way to use magic. This is the difference between mages and magicians, mages can't use magic without relying on the Elements, magicians use a number of different laws to do magic.

Magic is basically this large concept, that if the correct methods are followed, ie chants etc will happen. Magic is anything that's not physical, the world can be understood by either a physical perspective ie science where everything operates by chemical reactions or magical one which has nothing to do with physical stuff.

Mages and magicians bodies are steeped in the mysteries/magic hence their bodies have adverse effects on anything that operates under physical laws, and their is even stuff like magical entropy where magicians can insert magical laws into physical ones or something like that to shut down abilities.

Rank Disparity Extinction applies regardless of what law is used to invoke magic.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Cal, stop cherrypicking. And you dont need to kill someone instantly to be considered dura neg

Then can you prove that people get hurt extra by these moves? As opposed to just bypassing shields? Because all I’m hearing is that i bypasses charms.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Why is this important? Like seriously, the charm is meant to protect the astral body (which consists of the mind and soul) of a God, Dark Magic specifically attacks the astral body, Lilian's dark magic overcame the charm. Suimei got messed up by this the first time he came into contact with it, bedridden for like a day, with parts of his body being corrupted. It's why Lilian wears an eyepatch cause her own magic messes her up, so her eyes look inhuman.

Like what exactly are you looking for here, the charm is blatantly meant to protect a God, whether Dark Magic instantly one shots a persons soul or not is besides the fact.

This is the first time i have ever seen anyone try to argue that soul manipulation is not durability negation.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Mindhax and soulhax is dura neg by default, Cal. Its the opposite that needs to be proved.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Clearly you’ve never seen an Undertale thread then.

This is the first time i have ever seen anyone try to argue that soul manipulation is not durability negation.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Clearly you’ve never seen an Undertale thread then.

Yes, because thats a mechanic specific to undertale. Also, read my post above

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Also, you shot yourself in the foot in the moment you mentioned undertale, since people had to make a thread to prove that the soul attacks werent dura neg (since we consider to be dura neg by default), so yeah

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Bro if anything that proves that soul revisions need to happen. Like I said when I brought it up, show me a time when attacking a soul is seen as some ohko move, or even negating durability. You won’t because you can’t. It’s just treated as extra damage. Steal soul? Sure. Destroy soul? Sure. Hit the soul? Never.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

So make a revision then. Stop bringing up unaccepted stuff here

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Entirely relevant given it applies here. Don’t prove a negative. Imagine how much time would be save if Undertale didn’t have to have a separate thread about its soul attacking not being a durability negating technique. Not to mention if you wanna shut me up, just prove me wrong. Shouldn’t be hard.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

You want me to prove how the wiki already works?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah. I want you to show the longtime admin who predated the wiki’s renaissance how it works.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Dark magic explicitly harms both the physical and astral body, in addition to bypassing shields.

“Suimei-dono!”
“Suimei-kun!”
Even as they approached him, Suimei continued to intently watch the black haze tenaciously coiling around his left arm. And seeing him like that, Felmenia called out to him again.
“A-Are you alright? It appeared that you were struck by that dark magic just now, but...”
“Yeah, I ate it. It ******* penetrated the rampart.”
Saying that, Suimei showed his left arm to Felmenia. Where his glove and cuff were, there wasn’t anything unusual, but the portions of his arm that the black haze coiled around were blackened and looked like they had lost moisture.
“Th-This is...”
“They got me good. Seems that attack is probably classified as a particularly strong destructive force, even among other astral attacks. And it’s not just effective against the astral body. There’s a large ******* influence showing on the physical body too.”
As Suimei said that, his face became grim. Lefille then stood on her tiptoes and took a look for herself.
“Will this be alright?”
“If I leave it as it is, it’ll rot and crumble.”-Volume 3, Chapter 3

Cal can we stop with the tantrum about hax please.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I’ve said Jack all about hax today. Don’t strawman me please. Targeting multiple facets of oneself doesn’t equate to durability negation. If you can show me where it says that your soul needs durability to survive, or someone who’s body survived but soul didn't, I’ll be quiet.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

You're literally arguing that something that's by default been accepted as hax, is not hax.

Like take your gripes about soul manipulation to a revision thread about the wiki's standards.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

This is such a weird verse, like the definition of 'outside help lol'

 

[Tllmbrg]

I’ve yet to see a single fiction where attacking the soul is actually negating durability as opposed to just being a different target. Only time soul attacking is negating Dura is if it’s destroying in one hit or stealing.

Dude most fictional characters don't have soul durability feats like how a major chunk of them don't have feats for internal organs
So if you got an attack that targets either it acts like durability negation 9/10 of times