Quick and Minor BDE Revision

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Big Dimension Energy amirite

Currently, the BDE page lists type 1 as the absence of, or a state of existence outside of, time and space, without qualitative superiority over them. This grants resistance to space-time manipulation, as well as type 1 acausality, as being unbound from time would logically make them unaffected by alterations to the past.

The issue here, of course, is that we have no reason to assume that being literally unbound from time only applies to the past; "Time" encompasses the future as well as the past, so unless we have reason to assume otherwise, someone who is absent of or beyond time would logically exist outside the future as well. That would be type 4 acausality, not type 1.

Another issue is how the page seemingly treats type 2 as space-time immunity but not type 1 (though this could just be a misunderstanding on my part). We give immunity to manipulation of something if the target lacks the thing being manipulated (eg; soulless beings being immune to soulhax), so why do we not give immunity to beings with no presence in space-time to affect at all?

TL;DR: Type 1 BDE needs to give type 4 acausality and immunity to space-time hax, not type 1 and resistance.

 

[WanderingGecko]

Unbound is not immunity and why does existing beyond time = acausality type 4, care to explain?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Unbound is not immunity

Type 1 BDE is the explicit lack of spatiotemporal traits. Immunity is defined by the lack of something; A target without a soul is immune to soul manipulation, a target without a mind is immune to mind manipulation, and a target without bones is immune to bone manipulation. With that in mind, it is reasonable to say that a target devoid of space and time cannot be affected by space-time manipulation.

Or, to put it another way, if you try to manipulate the space-time of a character devoid of space-time... what exactly are you even targeting?

why does existing beyond time = acausality type 4, care to explain?

Because time encompasses the past and the future; With no past, you cannot be affected by changing the past. Similarly, with no future, abilities that work by changing or viewing the future are ineffective, which is type 4 acausality. Time is intrinsically linked to causality, which is why the very first example of acausality that comes to people's minds is the one brought about through time travel/related bullshit.

Perhaps it's more accurately described as type 2 acausality? I have seen existing outside of causality used as a justification for type 4, however, though either way it isn't type 1.

 

[Everything12]

Beyond Dimensional Existence is a lack of space and time, to an extent. It's not existing beyond all extensions of space and time, but merely some. Also, existing outside space-time=/=existing outside causality.

Type 2: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatiotemporal features and being superior to them in nature. These characters aren't necessarily superior to spacetime on every level, but just within the scope which they are shown. Due to transcending this spacetime they are immune to Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation of it. They furthermore inherit any benefits of Type 1.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Beyond Dimensional Existence is a lack of space and time, to an extent. It's not existing beyond all extensions of space and time, but merely some.

I mean, it is still immunity within the space-time of whatever level they encompass. I'm not even going to bother arguing higher dimensional stuff, but if two characters from low 2-C verses fight, and one has space-time hax and the other has type 1 BDE, there should be no logical way for the former to affect the latter, regardless of the potency of their hax (assuming they aren't smurfy in nature, ofc).

I don't see what's stopping us from saying "immunity to spacetime manipulation within the level of spacetime in which they inhabit" or something similar to get that idea across. Saying it's merely a resistance feels incorrect.

Also, existing outside space-time=/=existing outside causality.

I'm aware of that. But a BDE entity exists outside of time in general, which we treat as type 1; Type 1 acausality only covers absence of the past, while types 2 and 4 would cover the absence of the past and future, which is what being devoid of "time" as a whole would grant. It is simply inaccurate to say that time, in the context of this specific ability, does not extend to the future.

Idc what it actually is, but it sure as hell isn't type 1 acausality.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually, why are you quoting type 2 when this is about type 1? How can you lack something in one dimension but not another? How does that even work?

 

[Sniper670]

I agree with you. If existing outside of time makes you immune to changes in the past, why doesn't it make you immune to changes in the future

And ive seen many verses having Acausality Type 4 because said characters exist outside of time.

In fact this was something that was mentioned in the Aca 5 thread. Being independent of time is grounds for Type 4. Which is why this note exists

Note: Being completely independent of time or laws; or similar forces, does not make you completely independent of causality without the relationship between these forces and causality being clarified, with it only being considered as evidence for an irregular relationship with causality otherwise.

 

[WanderingGecko]

Type 1 BDE is the explicit lack of spatiotemporal traits. Immunity is defined by the lack of something; A target without a soul is immune to soul manipulation, a target without a mind is immune to mind manipulation, and a target without bones is immune to bone manipulation. With that in mind, it is reasonable to say that a target devoid of space and time cannot be affected by space-time manipulation.

Again, being unbounded to something doesn’t mean you lack it. You’re just not bound to it.

Because time encompasses the past and the future; With no past, you cannot be affected by changing the past. Similarly, with no future, abilities that work by changing or viewing the future are ineffective, which is type 4 acausality. Time is intrinsically linked to causality, which is why the very first example of acausality that comes to people's minds is the one brought about through time travel/related bullshit.

It’s a case by case specific thing, what your doing is generalizing that time = causality as a whole.

Note: Being completely independent of time or laws; or similar forces, does not make you completely independent of causality without the relationship between these forces and causality being clarified, with it only being considered as evidence for an irregular relationship with causality otherwise. -Acausality Page

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Again, being unbounded to something doesn’t mean you lack it. You’re just not bound to it.

My brother in christ have you even read the BDE page

The opening line for type 1 is literally "Type 1: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatiotemporal features"

It’s a case by case specific thing, what your doing is generalizing that time = causality as a whole.

...I'm not. If you lack time, that includes the past AND future. Type 1 acausality only covers lacking the past. Type 2 is from lacking the past AND future.

Also, the quote you're using only applies to type 5 acausality. In fact, it even says to default to using irregular acausality in cases like that, so you just proved my point, lol

 

[WanderingGecko]

My brother in christ have you even read the BDE page

The opening line for type 1 is literally "Type 1: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatiotemporal features"

I have actually, thanks for your concern.

Yes and? I never said it was anothing other than that, all i said was that “unbound ≠ lack of”.

...I'm not. If you lack time, that includes the past AND future. Type 1 acausality only covers lacking the past. Type 2 is from lacking the past AND future.

Also, the quote you're using only applies to type 5 acausality. In fact, it even says to default to using irregular acausality in cases like that, so you just proved my point, lol

Yes i know that. Where does it explicitly say that the case only applies to acausality type 5? What you’re suggesting is irregular causality though. I didn’t prove any of your points, lol.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Were you not just arguing against type 1 BDE granting immunity on the basis that you don't actually lack space-time?

So why the **** were we even arguing about this?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[WanderingGecko]

Were you not just arguing against type 1 BDE granting immunity on the basis that you don't actually lack space-time?

You’ve got it all wrong, i’m just arguing on the part where you said unbound = immunity and the part where being unbound from time = acausality type 4.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You’ve got it all wrong, i’m just arguing on the part where you said unbound = immunity and the part where being unbound from time = acausality type 4.

So do you agree that lacking space-time - which is what type 1 BDE is currently defined as - would be immunity to space-time hax?

As for acausality, I'll just let the acausality page speak for itself:
Note: Being completely independent of time or laws; or similar forces, does not make you completely independent of causality without the relationship between these forces and causality being clarified, with it only being considered as evidence for an irregular relationship with causality otherwise.
Irregular causality, of course, being considered type 4. It makes sense in practice, given the inability to affect the past or future of a target unbound by time.

 

[Jinsye]

You'd probably want to ask DT about this. As he was the one who made it change from type 4 acausality to type 1 acausality.

I've always found it odd that it was only type 1 acausality, but I believe the previous arguments were something about how it wouldn't be right for a type 1 BDE to resist Fate Manipulation and Precognition because those don't necessarily have to do with time (Fate is an esoteric concept that isn't really bound by time for example).

Maybe it's just a problem of acausality type 4 covering too much (i.e. maybe it shouldn't grant protection against Fate Manipulation by default), or maybe DT is just wrong.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I've always found it odd that it was only type 1 acausality, but I believe the previous arguments were something about how it wouldn't be right for a type 1 BDE to resist Fate Manipulation and Precognition because those don't necessarily have to do with time (Fate is an esoteric concept that isn't really bound by time for example).

Maybe it's just a problem of acausality type 4 covering too much (i.e. maybe it shouldn't grant protection against Fate Manipulation by default), or maybe DT is just wrong.

I think it's an issue of how fate manipulation as an ability doesn't have a single unifying mechanic behind it; It can be tied to time (such as vaguely "changing the future"), or it can be more esoteric in nature. Whether or not type 4 acausality would grant resistance should just be a matter of how the fate manipulation works.

In any case, if type 1 is defined as a lack of space and time, would that not qualify for type 2 acausality (lacking a past or future)?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Sniper670]

Bump.

 

[Anime_Facts]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

oh damn i almost forgot this existed :v