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Questions about Berserk speed ratings

SheevShezarrine

SheevShezarrine

3,017
1,428
I've seen claims stating that Guts and Serpico dodging lightning is and outlier, and I can see why. What justifies not counting this as an outlier?

I've also seen claims that Wyald being hypersonic is pure bull**it, with evidence such as Guts barely being able to cope with Mach 1 Rosine. What is some other reasons why some may think this is the case, and what evidence aside from the calc proves them wrong?
 
Rosine is At least mach 1, she could be far higher and even if she was mach 1 Guts reacts to her on multiple occasions and even has a mach 4 feat within the fight.

Wyald and the lightning are both double digit so it's somewhat consistent too.
 
I don't know why, I've never seen anyone claim Wyald being hypersonic is outlandish.

As it stands Guts has two double digit mach feats and a bunch of examples of him blitzing people, monsters and swimming so fast his sword isn't visible so it's not like him getting tagged often would make the others outliers (the higher mach feat being in the berserker armor too) and a mach 4 bare minimum feat against Rosine while heavily injured and Rosine only being mach 1 can't be an argument because that's not true, she's not just mach 1, she's At least mach 1, she could be mach 10 for all we know (in which Guts mach 4 feat would be mach 40 for example as he's 4 times faster than her in bursts).
 
I'm one of those who would like to see a more thorough discussion regarding speed feats in the Berserk verse as well. Personally, while I can clearly and easily see Guts as someone who is faster than eye, I don't see him being someone with supersonic let alone hypersonic reaction feats. Certainly not speedwise.

This thread made by member Goodyfresh

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/329539

contains excellent case analysis based arguments that are pretty much in line with my own thinking, and personally, I believe that the discussion was closed prematurely. Maybe the discussion could be re-opened but that would depend on whether or not the majority just chooses to accept the status quo.
 
Don't see him? And why's that? If it's a case of personnel preference that's irrelevant.

He has several feats showing him performing hypersonic feats, even in the fight with Rosine he has a hypersonic feat.
 
>I don't see him being someone with supersonic let alone hypersonic reaction feats. Certainly not speedwise.

That, if it's a case of you simply not seeing it happening is irrelevant, it has happened, and on multiple occasions at that. Even uf ya wanna use Rosine it onky supports the speed as he has a hypersonic feat within said fight.
 
The reason I don't see it happening is because I have similar observations and criticisms as Goody mentioned,

What ultimately became an issue with Goody's argument was that he/she focused too much on certain small details needing to meet a certain standard of realism in his/her mind. While actually his/her best and most useable argument was that those feats of speed and reaction used as benchmarks for Gut's maximum (like the lightning dodge, and Rosine), was otherwise internally inconsistent with the majority of the other cases of Guts fighting and reacting in combat.

Certain questions come to mind when those feats are used :

1. How do we know exactly how fast Rosine is? Is it really mentioned? some manga goes to great detail explaining feats using actual measurements, while others just use visual styles to express it in a manner that is meant to be simply "impressive"

2. In the section on lasers and beams, there is the possibility that lasers and beams in fiction are not necessarily light speed. My question regarding the Ganishka lightning bolt is this, should we automatically assume its property is like natural lightning? or do we consider the possibility that it is magical in nature and hence different rules apply?

3. I have no idea why the Wyald example is even used. My opinion is that figurative language used there doesn't really give us any actual way to measure said feat. I'm not questioning this one as I honestly don't see how it's useable.

These are just some of the questions I have because these were the cases being debated. With regards to Ganishka's lightning being assumed as actual lightning, then yes, judging from the images on the manga panels, one can reasonably assume Guts would have to be incredibly fast, but then I would see this as an outlier, since fiction in any media are not always perfectly consistent with even their own internal rules.
 
Rosine creates sonic booms and display all effects off breaking the sound barrier, its hammered in to be at least mach 1. (Guts even describes it in detail).

Ganishka manipulates real lightning, almost everything points towards it being so.

Wyald i can understand, personally I wouldn't use it.

And outlier? How's in an outlier, Guts has multiple hypersonic showings and it's not like normal humans tag him past golden age, he always blitzes the shit out of them and tears several apart before people near them can react no less occasionally.
 
-The "sonic booms" may be visualization meant to look impressive as I have mentioned

-Fine, let's assume Ganishka's lightning is actual lightning. I still would consider it an outlier since aside from that, the majority of the time Guts hasn't really been seen doing something that comes even close.

-That normal humans can't tag Guts doesn't mean he's hypersonic. It simply means he is much faster than they are. I can't hope to tag Usain Bolt, but far as I know, he isn't hypersonic.
 
Dude, not only is it shown to be making sonic booms Guts goes on an a rant about how it is indeed a sonicboom.

The thing is, there is other hypersonic feats so Ganishka isnt a one time thing and even then, he was in the Berserker Armor when he dodged it so even if it was an outlier for blackswordsman arc Guts it doesn't mean it's an outlier for Berserker Guts.

The humans tagging him was an example, in that he's never actually tagged by anyone so claiming outlier would need a different reason.

On a side note, have you read Berserk? The fact I need to explain why Rosine is faster than sound when it's common knowledge, because it's literally explained in detail in the manga suggests to me you haven't.
 
-Dude, numbers, was Guts holding a speedometer? Have you ever stood next to a speeding car? There is a strong ringing and pressure in the ear that can be felt that could be described as the sensation of a boom. For all we know that can be what Guts was describing.

-I'd like to see those feats if you would be so kind. And please do be specific.

-Alright so human tagging wasn't a good example? What would be a good example then to prove it wasn't an outlier?

-Yes, I have read Berserk. Been a follower of the manga for years. That I'm able to comment about the internal consistency of the feats should be an indication that I have read and considered various things in the manga.
 
You're kidding? He literally describes a sonic boom, Rosine shows all examples indicating a sonic boom, ignoring the literal sonic boom she makes.

Hell, ya could probably calc him blitzing people to be supersonic if ya really wanted.

That's your problem, human tagging isnt an example because he's never tagged by anyone bar Serpico post golden age, it's upon you to prove it's an outlier not me as im fine with what he's at.

And if so i suggest rereading the Rosine fight, he goes into more detail than that.
 
-Now you're just repeating yourself

-Still no examples? Okay

-How is it my problem when you're the one using it as an indication that he's hypersonic?

-I've literally reread the chapter twice as we were discussing this, hoping to find something more than figure of speech and artistic visualization.

Listen, I don't mind that you're set on your beliefs. I'm just putting these questions out there in case anyone who is as critical of these feats as I am are willing to discuss it in a constructive manner.
 
I'm repeating myself? Youre correct, because you keep questioning it, it's glaringly obvious it's actual sonic booms and the like, questioning it eon't stop it from being true.

Why would I? I'm not gonna go looking for examples when there's two viable ones right here.

You're clearly missing the point, I'm saying he never gets tagged by humans so if you're gonna use that as evidence for it being an outlier then don't, because it never happens not that him not getting tagged means he's hypersonic rather it doesn't contradict the existing showings, the burden of proof is on you, not me


And finally >figure of speech and artistic visualization.

You dont seem to understand it's the combination of the two that confirms it, not both separately the fact it shows a sonic boom then he describes is enough evudence to prove it is.
 
-I find that questioning things that aren't clear is actually the best way to get to the truth. But perhaps we have different philosophies and that's okay.

-Viable huh? I would love some other facts, but if you're too busy I understand. Perhaps somebody else can give them with a more detailed explanation

-Alright, Guts never gets tagged. Got it. (I'm pretty sure he did get tagged though.. I'll have to reread some chapters)

-Regarding visualization, well, if it is that easy to make assertions about feats based on how something is drawn stylistically, should we also assume that the use of speed lines imply a set amount of speed? Perhaps light speed? You don't have to answer that if you don't want to.

Again, I'm not trying to change your mind. If this conversation upsets you, you don't have to engage in it. I'm just a guy asking questions. I'll keep them open for whoever is interested.
 
He never gets tagged post golden age, I think the only time is after the Rosine fight ironically, where he's on deaths door and the one who tags him is Serpico.

Speed lines actually does visualize speed, how much? Who knows but it's an indicator of such, its not quantifiable though and back on topic, problem is in this example it's not speed lines, it's a sonic boom and it's accompanied by the sideffects of a sonic boom and is even described as such, it's not just a visual effect.
 
For the Rosine feat, we know she's going fts due to Guts describing himself as feeling dazed and deafened, both of which would most certainly apply to some near a sonic boom, as anyone who has fired a gun without hearong protection can attest. As for Ganishka, site rules qualify it as being identical in speed to natural lightning, since it acts like natural lightning, even if it is much more powerful (this is acceptable, as even electricity stated by WoG to be natural lightning can often be shown to be a fair bit above the 8-C AP of irl lightning)
 
With respect, how do we really know for sure? As I've stated before, some manga goes to the trouble of actually giving us numbers to make measurement of feats much easier. Some examples: Saint Seiya (100 million strikes per second), Rurouni Kenshin (9 strikes in an instant, while more ambiguous, at least gives us the number 9, and we are only left speculating on the definition of "instant").

I have read and reread the chapter even as I was discussing this feat. I'm still not sure. The feeling that Guts described, I mentioned that in itself isn't an absolute indication of speed. As I mentioned, standing next to a speeding car (the car was going fast) I have also felt an increase in pressure in my ear and the sensation of a VHOOOM that resulted from the sudden and violent displacement of air. I even lost my balance somewhat. What Guts may be describing can be similar.

Let's say for argument sake, that Rosine reached Mach 1 at that point. The fact that Guts was so clearly bewildered and unable to react properly seem to indicate that he isn't even supersonic. If Guts was hypersonic (a measurement signifying at the very least 5 times speed of sound), he should have little problem countering it.

Another panel following that shows that Guts was able to react because he saw Rosine fly toward him from a distance (she was also yelling "STING! STING! STING! essentially telegraphing the move), giving him time to position himself. I see this as akin to aim dodging where one can make predictive assesment of trajectory and speed.

My current conclusion is that, even accepting the assumption that Rosie is supersonic (Mach 1 or 2), the difficulty Guts had, plus the possibility of him aim dodging it, makes it difficult for me to think of him as even supersonic let alone hypersonic +.

But that's my analysis. If anyone disagrees, fine. I would love to hear about it.

P.S. I'm fine with the Ganishka assumption, though I have yet to see anything that makes me consider it as anything but outlier.
 
Guts still moves his head and bites down on the stinger, it doesn't matter if it was telegraphed, all that does is help, he didnt start dodging before she moved, he started moving right before she hit.
 
And dude, it's made so obvious that Rosine is supersonic the only way itd be clearer is if, as you said yourself, Guts pulled out speedometer which is just having unrealistic exoectations at that point.
 
A few observation regarding that:

1. at that point Rosine had already sustained a cannon fire to the belly, a crashing tree from protecting Jill, and then Guts catching her offguard by stabbing his Dragonslayer in the back. Her injuries were serious. If she was supersonic before, she wasn't by the time of that final attack.

2. Guts moving his head slightly and chomping down on Rosine's needle was a small movement of limited range. Not indicative of someone's speed when performing more complicated movement with higher range of motion. It's like saying that you can kick or punch as fast as you snap your finger or blink.

3. It does matter that it was telegraphed, that's what the basis for aim dodging is.
 
Guts still reacts to her, albeit barely prior to injuring her.

Try aimdodging a bullet after it was fired.

And you're right blinking is faster than throwing a punch and a kick, luckily it was him moving his entire head and then some 60 or so degrees, not simply blinking, or do ya wanna compare upper body motions to blinking?

And you do realize him moving his head, the actual movement of his head was calced right? It was calced at mach 4.5.
 
And regarding Ganishka, that was Guts in the armor and a magically equiped Serpico, even if you wanna argue Guts prior to that isn't supersonic which I disagree with completely, anything prior to his armor isnt gonna null his feats with said armor, especially as they're replicated by other characters.

Itd be like saying Goku isn't hypersonic in Dbz because he wasn't in the start of db.
 
-Yes, the aim dodging feat I refered to

-You don't have to, aim dodging implies that you have already taken proper preparations in anticipation of a move giving you an increased chance at acting accordingly before it was even started

- And yet you're trying to compare small head movements to complex body movements in complicated combat situations? Guts is a professional head snapper, amazing, does it mean he can move his entire body just as fast?

-Show me this calculation
 
Make an account then, and regardless, that still doesnt excuse you claiming aimdodging when he dodges her from centimeters away, sure itd be aimdodgeing if he moved befire she started moving, not right before she hits.

Once again with the bullet analogy, it's like dodging a bulket after it was fired, it doesn't matter if ya know where its going, you still need the speed to react if you started moving after it did.

And still, it doesn't null the Ganishka feat.
 
You clearly misunderstood. The aim dodging feat I mentioned was not the final attack where she impaled his cheeks. It was when she was still unhurt, flying in the air and as I said yelling all the while. Kindly reread my post.

I found a similar calculation in this very site. Here it is,

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Austrian-Man-Meat/Berserk:_Guts_Avoids_Rosine's_Charge

Notice that the variable used to calculate the speed was 340.29 m/s. Again this is already using the assumption that Rosine was Mach 1, which is something that I questioned.

But again, the cheek impalement was done after she was seriously hurt. So if she was supersonic at Mach 1, how can you know for sure she was still by the time it happened?
 
So i feel the need to throw my two cents in, I doubt that Hypersonic Guts is an outlier as he has many over the course of the Manga including:

-Rising from a crouching position and stab Dragonslayer into the ground faster then lightning could hit him

-speedblitzing Nosferatu Zodd in one of their fights

can keep up with the Apostle Wyald who blitzed a man on a clock tower and impaled him while tied up

comparable to Serpico who has dodged lightning

And this is from memory without him bringing in the Beserker armor with that little chestnut he can

-blatantly dodge lightning

-Keep up with Grunbeld an Apostle who swateed aside Guts in an earleir fight (from memory)

-Can run up to and cut Tornadoes in half
 
Tornado cutting can be calced, the lightning stuff can and has been calced and has been done twice by Guts and once by Serpico so it's not only something that happened twice, it was replicated by someone Guts has fought and beaten multiple times.

Him fighting characters like Zodd means he scales to him in speed otherwise Zodd would speedblitz him in every fight, so on and so forth.
 
Actually i have seen calcs for them (Wyald i believe was Mach 22 in the results) though it is understandable if we neglect that as it is pretty dodgy.

As for the Rising to block lightning feat it was calced at Mach 318 though if that is an overblown number it can be calced fairly easily.

As for the Tornadoes thing i think that can again easily be calced

As mentioned above the lightning stuff has been repeated twice by Guts and done by Serpico so i again doubt it's nature as an outlier.
 
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