Question about Steven Universe's Durability

[LordGriffin1000]

Under Steven's last durability key for Multi-Continent level it says (Blocked White Diamond's mind controlling beams)

I was wondering how blocking mind control counts as a durability feat?, do they have power behind them?. I'm not saying Steven isn't High 6-A in durability, I'm asking why is blocking mind controlling beams used as a justification.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Not sure why it says mind controlling beams when they were lasers that caused physical damage

Steven is also undergoing revisions atm and will be getting more justification for High 6-A durability from the recent season

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps this wording should be adjusted?

 

[Goodyfresh]

Perhaps this wording should be adjusted?

Well I mean the thing here Ant is that the beams were both mind-controlling hax AND physical laser-beams. White Diamond has several instances in the series of using beams of light with a physical effect/tiering which simultaneously serve as "carriers" for hax (the other most notable incidence of this would be the Corruption Beam Attack she launched against Earth together with Yellow Diamond and Blue Diamond).

Ant, do you think we should just take out "mind controlling" and leave it as just "beams" to make things more clear?

Also the durability-listing there should actually be "likely FAR higher" rather than "likely higher." The evidence, Ant and Weekly, is that White Diamond has AP "likely far higher," and with the last beam-attack she sent at Pink Steven, she was actually using her FULL POWER (I can try to find the scene to link you to it to show you why, but Weekly can attest to what I am saying if you ask him). Therefore Pink Steven's dura should be "likely far higher" rather than "likely higher."

 

[Antvasima]

I think that scaling Pink Steven from White Diamond should probably be fine, as he was proven to be even more powerful.

I do not know what to do about the beams though, as I haven't watched the episode yet. My apologies.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Okay so about the beams and about Pink Steven, here is the evidence/explanation (sorry, a bit long as I tend to do, but I'm just being VERY THOUROUGH to explain the scenes to you, Ant):

When Wite, Yellow, and Blue Diamond worked together to launch the "corruption beam" at Earth, it was mostly to carry hax along with it, the "corruption" hax. HOWEVER, the beam had a level of brightness above that of the sun, and had the physical effect of blowing away all the clouds it hit; We calced that beam and the light-energy was only something like 6-A to low-end High 6-A, however, that is because it was a **very casual** feat for the Diamonds, and they weren't aiming to put destructive power in the beam, but rather just to use its hax.

Now about when White tried to use her beams on Pink Steven: Pink Steven's dura, first of all, actually comes from his shields. However, Pink Steven's shields were shown every time in the scene to be **automatic**, they activate basically whenever anything is sent at him with no need for focus or effort on his part, so this is why we are considering the shields his durability, as they very much are just something that happens on instinct. HOWEVER, if you don't agree with such an assessment, then we could perhaps give his durability the tiering "At Least High 6-A, likely higher, likely FAR higher with shields." Does that sound better??? We can be sure at least that even without the shields his dura is Likely Higher, because his AP was able to stagger all the other Diamonds in that state with his "screams."

Now about how we know why White D was going truly all-out with the last Beam: At the time, she had several other characters, including Blue and Yellow, mind-controlled with hax. She tried shooting her beams (which again are carriers for hax but also carry light-enegy), by herself, at Pink Steven twice, using more power each time, only for him to CASUALLY block them with shields. So on her last attempt, she got PISSED, like, TRULY pissed. She said " Aghh! Don't you raise your shield at me!" Her eyes, along with those of all the Gems under her control **including Blue and Yellow Diamond**, all started glowing White, and White screamed in fury "I only want you to be YOURSELF! If you can't do that, I'LL do it FOR YOU!!!!" Then, with visible all-out effort, she and **all the other Gems under her control including the other two Diamonds**, launched a MUCH more powerful set of beams at Pink Steven, who proceeded to casually deflect them, then **burst his shield** causing a shockwave that knoced everyone back to such an extent that all the other Gems were staggered and briefly incapacitated, INCLUDING WHITE who was briefly incapped to the point of **actually being knocked out**!!! Human-Steven, who was across the room, started crying and said "No, stop, you're hurting them!" White Diamond didn't even regain consciousness until Pink Steven and Human Steven re-merged.

So at least with his shields, he is DEFINITELY "likely FAR higher" in both AP and Durability as even going truly all-out, White Diamond while simultaneously channeling the power of Yellow and Blue couldn't do diddley-squat to Pink Steven, and when he burst his shield, it literally knocked her unconscious!

Soooo based on that Ant, what do you think we should do with his tiering? I propose we just upgrade Pink Steven's AP to "Likely Higher, Likely Far Higher with screams and shields," and put his durability as "Likely Higher, Likely Far Higher with shields." Does that sound reasonable????

 

[Antvasima]

I personally suppose that seems fine, but we need more input. My half-informed agreement is not enough.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Hmmmm okay I will wait for Weekly (who obviously is fully-informed rather than "half-informed" lol) can come take a look over here at what we've been discussing, before I go and make any actual edits for Pink Steven. Should I go ask Weekly directly, or should I wait to see if he responds here in the next day or so before I ask him?

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask Weekly directly, along with other staff members listed in the Steven Universe (verse) page, to comment here. We have to hurry up to get done before April 15.

 

[Goodyfresh]

You can ask Weekly directly, along with other staff members listed in the Steven Universe (verse) page, to comment here. We have to hurry up to get done before April 15.

Okay I left a message on his wall.

All existing threads that are put on hold will be migrated over to the new forum once the move is done, right? We definitely won't be done in the CRT by April 14 as we still need to discuss a few things like some issues people have with some of the Ruby-feats that a lot of the rest of the verse scales from, and there is a BIG question of whether Lapis Lazuli should get a separate key for Future as she seems to have become so much stronger as to be on-par with the Diamonds, but we need to debate whether that was just PIS or not.

Edit: I'm not bothering to ask the other staff-member verse-supporters at this point as they have completely ignored me and never shown up in the CRT when I've asked them about it, except for Ultima who told me he hasn't seen Future yet and thus can't give input in the CRT. THIS IS IN NO WAY A CRITICISM of those members, I'm sure they have their reasons, I'm just stating the simple fact that they've ignored us in the CRT, including when I've asked for their input on their walls, so I'm not going to bother trying to ask them anymore. Weekly is now the only staff-member who is helping us with the S.U. edits; if the others come along later and have an issue with some of the changes we make, well, they had their chance already and didn't take it.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Goody's proposal sounds fine

 

[Antvasima]

Are you willing to ask some other Steven Universe-supporting staff members Weekly?

 

[Goodyfresh]

Are you willing to ask some other Steven Universe-supporting staff members Weekly?

Okay for now I'm going to make that edit to Pink Steven but let's see what ends up happening with other verse-supporter staff-members based on what you just requested of Weekly! If they end up not liking the idea, we can always just revert the changes to Pink Steven

The only reason I'm doing it now is because from what I've seen, as I said, all of those guys have been completely M.I.A. over in the CRT, haha. But like I said, we can always just end up reverting the change

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I can try to ask around but as far as im aware most of the other staff SU supporters havent seen or finished Future yet

 

[Goodyfresh]

I can try to ask around but as far as im aware most of the other staff SU supporters havent seen or finished Future yet

I can see you added flight to Pink State's abilities, Weekly. If that is indeed the case then should I also edit the Pink State tab under his "notable abilities" list to include flight?

Here's a question though: Can you remind me when he showed actual TRUE flight? To actually MANEUVER in the air, he seemed to have to create shields and jump off them; He LEVITATED in the air before sending out the spiked-shield that shattered Jasper, but I don't see where he ever showed the ability to truly fly while being able to move around in the air at will without having surfaces to jump off of. Am I forgetting something? If so, can you remind me?

Edit: If I am correct and not just forgetting something, then shouldn't it be "Restricted Flight" instead of "True Flight" with a note that he can levitate in place but has to maneuver by jumping off of his shields?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

He displayed true flight here

 

[Goodyfresh]

He displayed true flight here

OH DANG BOOOOIIIII yeah he did. Okay then. I'm gonna add it to his Pink State abilities under the tab for it under his Notable Techniques!!!

Steven has basically just become a DBZ character at this point but with shields instead of energy-blasts, lmaoooo.

 

[Antvasima]

I can try to ask around but as far as im aware most of the other staff SU supporters havent seen or finished Future yet

Okay. Thank you. I haven't finished watching all of it myself yet either. It is surprising that the show creators would feature Steven having a prolonged mental breakdown.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Okay. Thank you. I haven't finished watching all of it myself yet either. It is surprising that the show creators would feature Steven having a prolonged mental breakdown.

Actually it ISN'T SURPRISING AT ALL! What is SURPRISING is that other "child hero" characters, like say, Harry Potter, never ended up with severe issues. That was the whole point of S.U. Future: "Hero" or not, the whole "child hero" trope in fiction is basically a form of child soldiers. Starting when he was 13, Steven had to deal with the pressure of being involved, and eventually becoming the key figure in, a war for the fate of the entire Earth (and the Universe) which someone else left behind for him to deal with. How would that NOT give a kid PTSD and major issues? When you think about it, my mention of Harry Potter is on-point. Harry had an abusive childhood AND had to start dealing with the Voldemort situation, including witnessing people die horribly, starting at the age of 11. So why did he not have severe PTSD?

Basically the whole point of the main plot-arc in Future is that the "child hero" trope is common in fiction, but **almost always fails to address what would actually happen to the mind/psyche of a person placed in such a position.** Literally the only cases where child-heroes are portrayed realistically are the following two types:

1. They actually get PTSD and it is dealt with in a plot-arc, like in Future. This happened to SOME extent with Finn in Adventure Time (most notably after the stuff with his bio-Dad and losing his arm), to some extent with Aang in The Last Airbender (he was traumatized from the loss of his people as well as having to kill Ozai; the first was something that his friends helped him through, the second was something which he ended up being solved by a Deus Ex), and to a great extent with Korra in The Legend of Korra, but she was 18 at the time so it doesn't apply as much. S.U. Future ended up addressing the issue of what would really happen to the mind of a Child Hero in a far more plausible and accurate way than anything else I've seen.

2. The character isn't human and has a psyche fundamentally different from that of humans. A good example would be Kid Goku in Dragon Ball: He witnessed plenty of death (although the ones he cared about could always be reversed, lol), and also KILLED LOTS OF PEOPLE, but it doesn't "count" since he was from an alien race evolved for battle in both body and mind.

 

[Antvasima]

That is a good point. I just considered it unusual for such an otherwise lighthearted show as this to do so.

 

[Goodyfresh]

That is a good point. I just considered it unusual for such an otherwise lighthearted show as this to do so.

Actually, there were hints of Steven's issues as far back as Season 1. He always had major issues with his mother, and the original series covered plenty about his psychological mom-issues. It also covered things like his deep-seated insecurities about his "usefulness." But most of all, there were BIG hints in the original series that Steven has ALWAYS had the issue of bottling things up and hiding them when he has an issue, especially when he has an issue with people he loves (like the Crystal Gems), as seen in the episodes "The Test" (where he had issues with the CG's but pretends to be okay and happy with them), as well as the whole sequence of episodes starting with "Dewey Wins" in which Steven tried to play things off to Connie like what happened on Homeworld was no big deal, and acted like there were no issues with how he'd hurt Connie's feelings, so Connie actually ignored him for a while until they hashed things out.

Basically: It was never as "light-hearted" as people think; the musical numbers and jokes, the Beach City-based filler-episodes, were there to trick us into thinking it was This isn't a criticism of your ability to comprehend fiction, as I FELL FOR THE TRICK AS MUCH AS YOU DID, Ant! It's only now upon re-watching the franchise that I can clearly see all the hints and foreshadowing of Steven's major mental issues from the very beginning. Rebecca Sugar has actually confirmed that episodes like "The Test" and "Dewey Wins" were ALWAYS meant to show that Steven had deeper-seated issues which he was hiding from.

Of course, the Movie was where things started to get obvious and people were no longer falling for the trick, as the entire storyline with Spinel was dark-as-****. Also, the whole thing revealed in Future about how Steven has had multiple severe bone-fractures that always just healed instantly, so he never realized the amount of pain he felt in fights was insane and traumatic, is very clear on a re-watch, especially in the fight with Spinel in the Movie.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I have only used SU as casual entertainment, and there was a long break before the current series, so I haven't focused much on a deeper meaning, unlike, for example, Medaka Box, which has so many hundreds of subtexts woven in that I still discover something new every now and then.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, you are probably correct.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Anyway, you are probably correct.

Word of God from Rebecca Sugar and Ian Jones Quartey claims that my assessment here is correct, lololol. But of course they could just be saying that NOW in hindsight, lol

For me SU was way more than "casual" entertainment, obviously. A lot of characters had a lot of psychological issues and character-arcs that I deeply identified with on a personal level, so the series always meant a lot to me! I also just really liked all the world-building concepts around Gems, and the anime-influences, especially how it is basically a Magical Girl show but about a boy instead, haha.

I also happen to have a lot of friends who are on the LGBTQ+ spectrum sooooo it should be obvious why I like THAT aspect of the show, haha I am hetero/cis myself but a big "ally," so to speak, so all the "gayness" in the show always made me so happy

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. My godfather is homosexual, so I obviously don't mind that kind of thing, but I am not an activist either. Then again, I don't go around calling everybody else "neurotypical" either, just because I happen to be autistic.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Okay. My godfather is homosexual, so I obviously don't mind that kind of thing, but I am not an activist either. Then again, I don't go around calling everybody else "neurotypical" either, just because I happen to be autistic.

I have enough LGBTQ+ friends to be not just an Ally but an activist, but I in no way EXPECT you to feel the same. My point is that with me being an activist for LGBTQ+ rights/representation myself, Steven Universe as a franchise was a BIG deal for me in that regard. It's the show that paved the way and opened the door for American cartoons to now allow the open portrayal of homosexual, trans, intersex, nonbinary, and even asexual-coded characters Rebecca Sugar had to fight the executives at Cartoon Network tooth and nail to get all the "gayness" allowed in the show, and it was the first Western "children's" cartoon to ever have a gay kiss and gay wedding! Literally every Western Cartoon for "kids" that has LGBTQ+ stuff in it, from now on, owes what they are to S.U. and Rebecca Sugar

Yeah I don't go calling others "neurotypical" either, EXCEPT in conversations specifically pertaining to the subject of my autism. Speaking of autism and S.U.: Rebecca Sugar has confirmed in in interviews that it makes sense for people to read the character Peridot as beaing autistic-coded, specifically Aspergers So WE got represented in S.U. too, Ant!

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I do not particularly care either way. I am entirely neutral about that sort of thing. I don't believe in the intersectional hierarchy of oppression, that demands especially favourable treatments for certain groups, including my own, just in equal treatment that is not actively discriminating against them.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Well, I do not particularly care either way. I am entirely neutral about that sort of thing. I don't believe in the intersectional hierarchy of oppression, that demands especially favourable treatments for certain groups, including my own, just in equal treatment that is not actively discriminating against them.

That's what I believe too. Completely equal treatment for everyone. That's it. End of story. But I myself have experienced discrimination due to my autism (not gonna go into what exactly happened) and I know a Trans person who was subject to a hate-crime in which they were beaten half-to-death by a mob just for being transexual, the mob's reasoning was "you used to be a hot goth girl, how dare you get a sex-change," seriously. I wish I was making this up, but I'm not. What these events show is that ATTENTION STILL NEEDS TO BE DRAWN to certain groups until full, true equality really is achieved.

On the flip-side, and I think this is what you were hinting at, there are CERTAIN segments of some activist-groups that seem to be more interested in REVENGE for all the years of oppression, rather than achieving true equality, and THAT I don't agree with. To keep things non-offensive, I won't name anyone or any groups in-particular.

We're getting soooo off-topic though lmao, I wonder what the OP and Weekly think at this point, hahaha.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. I agree with your sentiments. In Saudi Arabia for example, homosexuality is punished by execution, and transexuals are tortured to death. I am just saying that I don't think that it is healthy to go around feeling oppressed all of one's life and blame all personal problems on society at large even if it isn't true. I grew out of the self-pity party phase long ago.

 

[Goodyfresh]

I am just saying that I don't think that it is healthy to go around feeling oppressed all of one's life and blame all personal problems on society at large even if it isn't true. I grew out of the self-pity party phase long ago.

THAT I agree with 100%. I learned a long time ago myself to never use my Autism as an excuse for anything, rather just as an EXPLANATION for how I have trouble with my social-skills. But using it as an excuse rather than explanation is a way to avoid making an effort to learn, grow, and change. And self-pity is NEVER productive, as you said.

Again though aren't we going way off-topic and possibly annoying the OP and Weekly if they're still following this? I mean in the end though you're the head-honcho here sooo. . .I dunno. Lol.

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry. I get out even less than usual now due to the Coronavirus, so I don't talk much with others IRL at the moment. Meaning, I stray off-topic more easily.

Anyway, I agree. I believe in hard work and gradual personal self-improvement, although I occasionally explain why I still have a more difficult time to handle certain things than a regular person, despite genuinely trying very hard.

 

[Nickobloke]

its important to highlight these views sometimes, as off topic as it is.

 

[Goodyfresh]

its important to highlight these views sometimes, as off topic as it is.

Thanks for that sentiment dude, it actually means a lot to me

 

[Nickobloke]

I don't have autism myself but my Girlfriend does, I give support to her and others have it, they just need a little bit of understanding at times.

 

[Antvasima]

My apologies for the derailment. Can somebody summarise the conclusions for the revisions here, so we can get them done before tomorrow?

 

[Goodyfresh]

My apologies for the derailment. Can somebody summarise the conclusions for the revisions here, so we can get them done before tomorrow?

As I said over in the CRT:

Everything else can be put on hold until after the move, really.

In terms of the speed-upgrades: They can get done if Weekly will come back in the CRT and approve them, any chance you could ask him? Update: I asked Weekly myself but it's on an old convo of ours so I'm not sure if he will notice it. All we need is his approval and we can make the speed-edits.

Just for clarification, Ant: All threads a user is following will still be followed and as easy to find once the wiki is moved, right? I currently have the CRT I am following which is important, as well as a couple vs-threads I made which are still ongoing.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Evrything looks fine to me, go ahead and add it

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that this seems to have been accepted to apply then, although I would still prefer an easy to understand summary.

As far as I have been told, you will be automatically subscribed to all threads that you have ever replied to.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Evrything looks fine to me, go ahead and add it

Weekly: How about also upgrading Lapis' speed SPECIFICALLY WITH HER WATER-MANIP as she was able to react to and restrain both Blue Diamond and Monster Steven? Further edit: Because we need to finish quickly I am making those upgrades, as well as upgrading Lapis to have Relativistic speed, but At Least Relativistic likely Higher reactions and speed with Water Manipulation due to her feats against Blue Diamond and Monster Steven. Weekly, if you disagree then you can revert the edits for Lapis. But it seems pretty clear-cut that her reactions and water-manip are "likely higher" in speed by scaling to Blue Diamond and Monster Steven, and also the further evidence below!

She also absolutely ROFL-level speed-blitzed two other Lapises, lol. Aaand when she was severely weakened with her gem cracked and while maintaining a High 6-A feat continuously, her Water Clones were able to take on the Crystal Gems quite easily and were winning! I'd say this all amounts to good evidence for her reactions and Water Manip being "likely higher" in speed.